The AMA - Meanest Monopoloy Ever Organized!

Breaditor, again, I have never once attacked you or Landis. I took offense to Landis calling me a "b'tard" when all he has to go on are bad experiences he had with a handful of medical professionals who should have had their certifications revoked. I'm terribly sorry you can't see both sides of the coin, that not all doctors are horrible people and that many of us, especially those in public health, are truly working for the paitient. However, please refrain from condemning statements due to obvious inability to see past your own bias, as you were so quick to assign to me.

That being said, I think Byrd hit the issue on the head as far as socialized medicine. Sure, the Canadians say they want to change their system. That's because they don't have a truly socialized system. In France, for example, there are more public health facilities than private. However, if you need a procedure performed that the public health facility simply can't provide, the government pays for you to go to a private clinic. Same with Italy. The benefit to the socialized system is three-fold:

1) Everyone has the basic healthcare needed to survive.
2) A healthy population is productive population
3) The longer waiting time prevents those with conditions that do not need to be medicated to not seek a doctor, thus reducing medical costs and providiing the doctor wiht more time to spend with the critical patients instead of a child with the sniffles.

It would be interesting to hear what other members of social systems think, as well as some of the outsiders, in a sense. Having said all of this, Breaditor, please excuse yourself from this solicitation due to your obvious bias.

~MFP

Originally posted by bsl4doc

Everyone has the basic healthcare needed to survive.

Survive? Quality of life is important. I'm sure I have a lot of company when I state that we would all prefer to live a quality life rather than to simply survive. Q of L requires good health care, something in grotesquely short supply in the US.

The longer waiting time prevents those with conditions that do not need to be medicated to not seek a doctor, thus reducing medical costs and providiing the doctor wiht more time to spend with the critical patients instead of a child with the sniffles.

Maybe Italians don't mind waiting, but consumers in the US do. We pay a fortune for our premiums/insurance whether our health care is good or bad. We expect our needs to met fairly quickly due to this unabashed usury by the medical "profession".

I've discussed this with both Canadians and Englishmen. Longer waiting times in Canada and the UK have resulted in people becoming more ill than they would have had they received the appropriate care and testing ASAP.

Who in their right mind wants to wait up to a year for hemorrhoid surgery?

Get real.

The problem in the US is that the health "care" and insurance industries have merged. This is a blatant conflict of interest.

The government doesn't address the problem because everyone in power (Congress/White House, etc.) is generally rich and simply doesn't give a damn about the people who aren't. They're raking it in, so why mess with the system?

As long as the rich rule in the US, the rest of us are farked.

Maybe Italians don't mind waiting, but consumers in the US do. We pay a fortune for our premiums/insurance whether our health care is good or bad. We expect our needs to met fairly quickly due to this unabashed usury by the medical "profession".

That's your problem, right there, in bold. EVERYONE expects their needs to be met quickly. Now, let's say you are the attending at the Firenze Public Emergency Ward, ok? You walk into the admitting room and see a child coughing, a man with a gunshot wound, and an old woman complaning of ulcers. Which would you admit first? I'm sorry if you think it seems harsh, but the child and woman may have to suffer a little bit in order to ensure the gunshot victim lives. Then, after that, the old woman will receive her treatment, followed much later by the child who, miraculously, has recovered from his common childhood illness that humans have been able to deal with for hundred of years without emergency medical treatment.

Do you get what I'm saying? American medical costs and insurance costs are beign dirven up because everyone seems to go to the hospital at the drop of a hat. My uncle practiced in New York for two years, and he was amazed at the things people would come screaming into the ER about. He was even more surprised at how selfish people will be as far as putting their less critical problems ahead of those with a dire need for medical attention. Now, obviously one person's account of one hospital isn't indicative of the entire American medical system, but then you don't have any accounts of my medical system or me, for that matter, and have been able to ridicule me, my system, and my profession unabashed, so I think I'm entitled.

I've discussed this with both Canadians and Englishmen.

Of course you have.

Who in their right mind wants to wait up to a year for hemorrhoid surgery?

I have never heard any reports from Italy, France, Germany, Russia, or England of someone who needed surgery waiting more than two months. Perhaps you or your supposed "Canadian or Englishman" are exaggerating just a bit? Or perhaps are speaking about a case of medical negligence instead of the norm just to try for effect?

~MFP

Originally posted by bsl4doc

That's your problem, right there, in bold. EVERYONE expects their needs to be met quickly.

Now, let's say you are the attending at the Firenze Public Emergency Ward, ok? You walk into the admitting room and see a child coughing, a man with a gunshot wound, and an old woman complaning of ulcers. Which would you admit first? I'm sorry if you think it seems harsh, but the child and woman may have to suffer a little bit in order to ensure the gunshot victim lives. Then, after that, the old woman will receive her treatment, followed much later by the child who, miraculously, has recovered from his common childhood illness that humans have been able to deal with for hundred of years without emergency medical treatment.

I understand triage and we're not talking about Italy. This is why I asked you to stand down. You know nothing about our health "care" system in the US, which you've proven by posting the following paragraph.

American medical costs and insurance costs are beign dirven up because everyone seems to go to the hospital at the drop of a hat.

Everyone? Not. Medical costs are rising because hospitals, et al, have to cover expenses accrued from treating the uninsured and the poor, who are generally one and the same.

You don't have any accounts of my medical system or me, for that matter, and have been able to ridicule me, my system, and my profession unabashed, so I think I'm entitled.

Newsflash: We're not talking about you or Italy. We're talking about US citizens, the AMA, and the US health "care" system.

Stop being so egocentric, doc. You're just reinforcing the stereotype.

I have never heard any reports from Italy, France, Germany, Russia, or England of someone who needed surgery waiting more than two months. Perhaps you or your supposed "Canadian or Englishman" are exaggerating just a bit? Or perhaps are speaking about a case of medical negligence instead of the norm just to try for effect?

Why don't you just call my international friends liars and be done with it.

Bread, I just have a really hard time taking you seriously when a fellow American (Byrd) posts his own opinion, and you ridicule him, and then accuse him of not understanding his own nation's medical system, despite the fact that he worked in it for years. You are the typical, egomaniacal stereotype that thinks "oh, I'm on the inside, I understand things no one else does". You know, it's okay to be wrong sometimes. I admit, I've gone off topic. I also admit I don't have the same exposure to the American system as you do. However, now it is your turn to admit you don't have the expertise Byrd does, and that you do have a penchant for exaggeration.

Also, why don't you have Landis relax and stop making broad generalizations about professions. It makes for pretty disinteresing posts. And I never called your "international friends" liars. I just thought it was funny that you used the international equivalent of "I can't be racist, I have a black friend!". Does knowing a Canadian and an Englishman make you an expert on their repsective medical systems now? Well, you know, I have a colleague from Anatalia, so I must be qualified to practice medicine there, as well as have a degree in Russian history and language.


~MFP

[edit on 4/16/2006 by bsl4doc]

Originally posted by bsl4doc

Bread, I just have a really hard time taking you seriously when a fellow American (Byrd) posts his own opinion, and you ridicule him, and then accuse him of not understanding his own nation's medical system, despite the fact that he worked in it for years.

Nothing I've posted has contradicted this person's posts. I neither ridiculed him nor accused him of not knowing about the US health "care" system.

You are the typical, egomaniacal stereotype that thinks "oh, I'm on the inside, I understand things no one else does". You know, it's okay to be wrong sometimes. I admit, I've gone off topic. I also admit I don't have the same exposure to the American system as you do. However, now it is your turn to admit you don't have the expertise Byrd does, and that you do have a penchant for exaggeration.

And I've earned this insult how? By stating the facts about the US system?

And, since you have no clue what I do for a living, how do you know I don't have the expertise? Does Pharm.D. ring any bells with you?

I've exaggerated nothing. You are in no position to make this type of judgment. You live in Italy, which is (in case you've forgotten) on the other side of the planet.

Originally posted by bsl4doc

Also, why don't you have Landis relax and stop making broad generalizations about professions.

What my husband does or does not post is his affair. I don't push him around or presume to tell him what to think.

I never called your "international friends" liars.

Perhaps you or your supposed "Canadian or Englishman" are exaggerating just a bit?

Brush up on your English. You're missing the subtlety of your own statement. Or are you. I recognize insult when I see it.

You don't believe the people I've spoken to are real or even Canadian or English. Frankly, I don't care.

Does knowing a Canadian and an Englishman make you an expert on their repsective medical systems now?

You assume I know one of each. I wouldn't have made the statement if it was based on one or two opinions.

Originally posted by brEaDITOR

Originally posted by bsl4doc

Stop being so egocentric, doc. You're just reinforcing the stereotype.

don't call him that, he's a med student.

a med student with big ideas and very, very little basis for them, just like a whole lot of others.

Originally posted by The Parallelogram

don't call him that, he's a med student.

a med student with big ideas and very, very little basis for them, just like a whole lot of others.

It's a woman, and you make a good point. Why am I arguing with someone who isn't out of school yet?

The same people that b1tch and complain and denounce ALL doctors, are the same ones that say they hate the police, and that they want nothing but for all the cops in the world to die......but they are the first ones to call the cops for help, and cry to them when someone breaks into their house and steals their PS2.

No one has denounced ALL doctors on here. The topic is about MOST...not ALL! And why are you talking about the police? Two different subjects and again, if you want to debate peoples' thoughts on the police, start a new thread in the proper forum...this is the wrong place.

Quick example of how lax doctors get: here in Arizona recently, two different doctors have been "reprimanded"...now understand, only reprimanded for leaving patients on the table while they went and ran erands. One doctor went and cashed his pay check...I forget what the other did....but, they both left patients on the table, under anesthesia (sp?) with open incisions while doing these erands....... I'm sorry, are they looking out for the patients' best interest in situations like this??

Such a clear and (relatively) comprehensive summary, gotta love it!
Let's see if this catches on, far too many sources are giving out decent info, it's unfortunate, though that they had to keep it short and Singlet Oxygen and Ozone could very well do with further remarks about generation, namely 762nm or 11xx (forgot, sry, just use broadband ) and that ozone can be ionic and positive ions are better than negative..

spark discharge devices tend to generate nitirc oxides and therefore suck, the Natural way is using UV light, which produces less but does it the way of the sun.

I have a hunch that medical ozone testing is done with discharge generators, so the establishment can claim how bad ozone is

Quick example of how lax doctors get: here in Arizona recently, two different doctors have been "reprimanded"...now understand, only reprimanded for leaving patients on the table while they went and ran erands. One doctor went and cashed his pay check...I forget what the other did....but, they both left patients on the table, under anesthesia (sp?) with open incisions while doing these erands....... I'm sorry, are they looking out for the patients' best interest in situations like this??

No, they aren't looking out for the patient, you're right. However, those are two doctors in a state which currently employs 11,025 MDs (www.citizen.org...). Now, I'll give you a generous estimate and say there are 1,000 negligent or otherwise incompetent doctors in Arizona alone. This means only 11% would be in the group that all of you are calling "most doctors". So...that other 89% is what? A minority through some faulty mathematics?

~MFP

Back to the AMA, bsl4medstudent.

there is a bloated and draconian organization preventing American citizens from recieving health care that in many cases would cure an ailment for which the AMA will only allow a patient to recieve harmful artificially produced chemical medications. many viable alternative therapies are being stonewalled by this organization, for the SOLE PURPOSE of increasing income.

this is unacceptable. say what you like about doctors, about yourself, or about whatever the hell country is issuing you your opinions, but people are suffering, even dying, because the officials in the AMA want more money.

Originally posted by The Parallelogram

Back to the AMA, bsl4medstudent.

there is a bloated and draconian organization preventing American citizens from recieving health care that in many cases would cure an ailment for which the AMA will only allow a patient to recieve harmful artificially produced chemical medications. many viable alternative therapies are being stonewalled by this organization, for the SOLE PURPOSE of increasing income.

this is unacceptable. say what you like about doctors, about yourself, or about whatever the hell country is issuing you your opinions, but people are suffering, even dying, because the officials in the AMA want more money.

We need an applause Emoticon.

there is a bloated and draconian organization preventing American citizens from recieving health care that in many cases would cure an ailment for which the AMA will only allow a patient to recieve harmful artificially produced chemical medications. many viable alternative therapies are being stonewalled by this organization, for the SOLE PURPOSE of increasing income.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the news stories featuring AMA members holding guns to cancer patient's heads and force-feeding them chemotherapeutics...

No one is MAKING patients go to a hospital, no one is preventing them froms seeking holistic or homeopathic treatment, and USA actually has one of the highest numbers of osteopathic physicians of any western nation. So, can you show many any evidence of a patient being somehow FORCED to take the allopathic route in cancer treatment?

Or is it just that most choose this route because it is the most effective despite the occurence of side effects?

~MFP

No, you fail to take into account the amount of doctors that go unreported because the patient leaves that doctor's office to use the services of another, or that aren't reported at all because the patient is poor/uninsured.

I use the Neurology clinic of a local University that has a partnership with a hospital. I sat in the waiting room of the clinic for my 10:00 a.m. appointment until 4:00 in the afternoon because the Neurologists (there are 8 doctors and 20 interns) were "too busy" to see me and the others around me that had appointments. This was a common occurance according to that small sampling of patients.

Claims of it taking up to 6 months for MRI's or CT's to be completed.

Breathing problems that needed an X-Ray for clarification of diagnosis that the patient was told to return in 3 days to have done.

The 23 year old girl that sat next to me at my last visit that has severe balance problems. The doctor instructed her to bend her back while standing to test her mobility, she replied that she couldn't do that because of her balance problems, he got angry and yelled at her so she complied and... she fell over, struck the table and was in a neckbrace because of it.

So, I asked these people, "If you are having trouble with these doctors, why not contact the hospital admin or the medical board?"

No one wanted to rock the boat and face the possibility that they would have to find alternate medical treatment. No one would write a letter or make a phone call.

I could have sued, but I wrote the doc a 4 page letter detailing the neglect and negligence that I had experienced there in the last year and a half. All I got was a "We are reviewing your complaint. Have a nice day."

Not all doctors are bad, but I am seeing a decline in their humanitarianism and professionalism.

JDub

Originally posted by bsl4doc

Or is it just that most choose this route because it is the most effective despite the occurence of side effects?

Many people don't know any better because alternative treatments are discouraged by the AMA, which is also a huge lobby in Congress.

Thanks to the Internet, more and more Americans are doing their own research and questioning the status quo. The AMA can't stand this.

One good example is the battle between the AMA and natural health advocates. OTC supplements are the issue. The AMA is fighting tooth and nail for regulation of vitamins, minerals, and other natural supplements. Unfortunately, some pharmaceutical companies are on-board as well.

It's disgusting how profit-oriented American businesses have become. Combining health "care" with profit-based insurance is a complete disaster for reasons already stated.

Thus, we rage against the machine.

Originally posted by BlueTileSpook

No one wanted to rock the boat and face the possibility that they would have to find alternate medical treatment. No one would write a letter or make a phone call.

BINGO!

One complaint against a physician, nurse, or other medical type, particularly in a hospital, results in even worse care than before. Been there done that!

The head games played with my husband's father were incredible. Don't tell us the unnecessary stress didn't contribute to a faster decline in his health. Everyone knows that stress exacerbates health problems and delays healing.

Our only consolation is that, some day, the medical types will be in the same position. They'll be trying to get people to listen and to obtain the appropriate testing and medications, or fight for a correct diagnosis, and they'll fail.

What goes around comes around. If there's any justice in this world, what goes around will come around cubed.

Parallelogram, the AMA is not puting a un to patients heads and forcing them to take their drugs and see their doctors.

You and every other American has the freedom to see any doctor, AMA certified or not, and use any home remedies you wish.

I am an American citizen born and raised to foreign born naturalized citizen parents. I do not know about your family and your health habits. But it appears to me most of the people complaining about doctors who have been very bad in their practice should choose to live healthier?

Peope do not get sick for no reason. I have hundreds of relatives living in this country, some were born here and others immigrated. Most of them are elderly and have lived here quite some time. Statistically some of them should have at least suffered some form of cancer, heart condition, or chronic disease. Perhaps my family bloodline is highly lucky, or extremely blessed, but none that I know of have suffered any one of those.

When we get a slight sickness, (speaking of the relatives I know on a regular basis) such as a cold or fever or something of that nature, we dont typically go see a doctor at all. If its really irritating, we take some aloe, and eucalyptis from plants we have growing in our homes and lemon and boil ourselves some home remedies to ease the ailments. Coupled with a high fluid intake (soda, coffee, an alcohol do not count, they will only make you worse) such as juice, and water and our ailments and sickness will be gone in a matter of days.

If many people gave up their caffiene, alcohol, tobacco, prescription drugs and laziness to excercise; and increased their knowledge on herbal remedies
which many, including eucalyptis and aloe can be grown in your home/apartment they woud never have to even hear about the AMA ever again. You have to give up all of that stuff, yes that means soda and coffee. You can justify all you want to but the fact remains even those common beverages are detrimental to your health in some way. All the herbal remedies and/or prescription drugs and doctors visits in the world will do nothing if people continue to choose unhealthy living.

If you dismiss my recommendations for at least growing those two plants indoors for your own treatment that you are pretty much siding with the AMA anyways.

So all I have to say is continue chugging down your sodas, coffee, and alcohol and you will find those statstics about diabetes and cancer and heart conditions will eventually find their way close to home, or may have already.

I am not a tree hugging hippy environmentalist liberal new age quack. I am only offerring my suggestion to moving a step towards solving this issue people have with the AMA. I only pass this information as a concerned citizen who has a healthy and happy standard of health that my family also share because of our experiences with our own education and practice of natural treatments.

If anyone wishes to respond with any inflammatory attacks, feel free to vent that anger, I will not hold it against anyone or respond to it.

Originally posted by DYepes

Parallelogram, the AMA is not puting a un to patients heads and forcing them to take their drugs and see their doctors.

You and every other American has the freedom to see any doctor, AMA certified or not, and use any home remedies you wish.

Huh? Ever hear of socio-economic roadblocks to this practice? Some people can't afford it.

it appears to me most of the people complaining about doctors who have been very bad in their practice should choose to live healthier?

Peope do not get sick for no reason.

Do you have any concept of a genetic disorder?

If many people gave up their caffiene, alcohol, tobacco, prescription drugs and laziness to excercise; and increased their knowledge on herbal remedies which many, including eucalyptis and aloe can be grown in your home/apartment they woud never have to even hear about the AMA ever again. You have to give up all of that stuff, yes that means soda and coffee.

Many countries drink coffee/tea/wine/beer. Moderation is more sensible than torturing your palate with a lifeless diet.

As for the rest of your statements, you can climb down off your throne now. Don't trip.