The AMA - Meanest Monopoloy Ever Organized!

So, like I said, SAY SOMETHING about it, instead of just abandoning hope and taking it. It seems like a lot of problems in your country stem from this kind of behaviour...

Med student...you get offended because we talk and you don't feel we understand what is going on in your country. Yet, you can sit and judge what goes on in ours? From many of your comments on this thread and many others, it is quite clear you haven't a clue what goes on in the United States or anywhere else for that matter!

Excitable, please don't put words in people's mouths. I never said I understand what is going on in your country. I'm basing my comments about the American medical profession on reports we get in our news, as well as member comments on here. Also, I think it's fairly safe to say the American attitude is a bit apathetic when a recent poll shows more than 80% of your country wants to impeach your president, and yet you allow him to send your soldiers to their deaths and gain personal wealth by wielding executive power. A little more than sickening.

~MFP

Originally posted by The Parallelogram

doctors, on the whole, are bastards... there may have been one or two okay guys in the German National Socialist Worker's Party, but that doesn't mitigate the damage done by the vast majority of their counterparts.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! I cannot stop laughing.

You broke the spell I was under.

Originally posted by bsl4doc

Excitable, please don't put words in people's mouths. I never said I understand what is going on in your country. I'm basing my comments about the American medical profession on reports we get in our news, as well as member comments on here. Also, I think it's fairly safe to say the American attitude is a bit apathetic when a recent poll shows more than 80% of your country wants to impeach your president, and yet you allow him to send your soldiers to their deaths and gain personal wealth by wielding executive power. A little more than sickening.

~MFP

APATHETIC? Just who do you think you are? What do Bush and Iraq have to do with the AMA and American medical issues?

Not a bloody thing.

I'm squealing.

APATHETIC? Just who do you think you are? What do Bush and Iraq have to do with the AMA and American medical issues?

Not a bloody thing.

I'm squealing.

If you would please read the entire post, you would see I was comparing the lack of action against negligent doctors to the lack of action on many political/social fronts. I'm sorry you didn't see/read that portion.

I was serious, by the way, about you seeking legal attention on your case(s). It seems like there was major documented negligence and there should be repurcussions for it. I'm sorry for being compassionate towards your misfortune. It's just a little alien to me to be met with anger and hostility when I offer genuine help. Perhaps you have some phobia against others offering you aide?

~MFP

Also, I think it's fairly safe to say the American attitude is a bit apathetic when a recent poll shows more than 80% of your country wants to impeach your president, and yet you allow him to send your soldiers to their deaths and gain personal wealth by wielding executive power. A little more than sickening.

As was already said, what does this have to do with the thread med student? Nothing....

Instead of changing the subject, why don't you stick to the one at hand. Or, is this some trick they teach in med school for those times when reality has you backed up into a corner?

If you want to talk about George Bush...start a thread in the proper forum and I will be happy to show you another topic you know nothing about! And while we're at it, I can dig into your country's politics and do some bashing of my own!

As was already said, what does this have to do with the thread med student? Nothing....

Instead of changing the subject, why don't you stick to the one at hand. Or, is this some trick they teach in med school for those times when reality has you backed up into a corner?

Excitable, this is quite funny coming from someone who used an entire post to say the following about an hour ago:

It appears that tremendous education hasn't served you too well. It's quite obvious the mod was on your side on this one. Doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that!

Now....remind me again where you get off being able to criticise someone for making an off topic statement?

~MFP

Ok can we discontinue the off topic comments (by anyone), political references, any personal remarks and get back to the topic of

The AMA - Meanest Monopoloy Ever Organized!

Thank you.

Jak

Originally posted by bsl4doc

I was serious, by the way, about you seeking legal attention on your case(s).

We did. When cancer is involved it's difficult to bring a lawsuit.

Everything listed in my husband's posts was discussed with the families of other patients. They, too, had experiences along the same lines.

Our medical system is as ill as the rest of our country.

Originally posted by brEaDITOR

Originally posted by bsl4doc

I was serious, by the way, about you seeking legal attention on your case(s).

We did. When cancer is involved it's difficult to bring a lawsuit.

Everything listed in my husband's posts was discussed with the families of other patients. They, too, had experiences along the same lines.

Our medical system is as ill as the rest of our country.

I'm curious, how did the hospital explain the emergency bowel surgery? In any kind of cance, obviously there will be a chance of emergency surgeries being necessary, but there is always a pathology to support it. If the pathology of this case obviously developed over a period where little to now treatment was given, how did they explain it away?

~MFP

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Listen med student...I'm neither uneducated nor silly. I'm talking about your profession as a whole and most of the people in it. Obviously there are some in it that are just fine and actually decent human beings. But that is not how most are.....and you know that!

You haven't even joined the game yet. You are the one that is quite naive!

But, EB, you got your info from a site and didn't bother checking to see what that person's agenda was. And would you really REALLY prefer the unlicensed doctor?

I did some recent reading on unlicensed doctors and what went on before there was a crackdown on this kind of thing. For true frauds, how about the people who would make up diseases and sell you "cures" of turpentine (you had to drink it) and who left town before you died, but after you had bought a caseof the medicine.

It's hard to be a fraud and stay in one location. Yes, it certainly happens, but you hear about those cases.

If you want to reform the medical profession, why don't you get involved in it. Become an EMT, for example, or a Licensed Practical Nurse or a Nurse's Aide. Good jobs, all (though a lot of work) and a lot of demand for the skills.

...and then you might go back and read those websites again and I think you might get a different take on them.


(for the record, I did work as a nurse's aide a very long time ago.)

Originally posted by The Parallelogramhowever, the fact remains that the global body of medical practitioners, upon whom we rely for our continued well-being, has in large part been perverted in this purpose by lust for material gain.

Let me offer a counterpoint to that one.

A long time ago (I've had quite a spotted career) when I was getting my first Masters' degree in Medical Computing Applications, I was a Teaching Assistant for the Department of Preventive Medicine. I dealt with med students.

Yeah, some of them had attitudes, and some expected to pracitce only Diseases of the Rich. But a whole bunch of them were just ordinary folks (a few were the first in their families to go to med school, several had been medics in 'Nam) and in dealing with well over a thousand of them, I didn't see that kind of attitude -- the "let's get rich by stiffing people."

Many worked at free clinics (in fact, my adult daughter goes to a free clinic run by a local MD) and many volunteered at county health clinics.

Did you ever see the tv series, MASH? That was a pretty good slice of what real docs are like. Modern tv shows such as "House" might make good drama, but the docs shown in tv dramas would actually get thrown out of most medical establishments.

America is the land of the free, and you're free to choose other treatments or no treatments.

I've seen the abuses of the system, and I've seen outrageous acts (and as was said, I marched off and reported those acts to every single agency I could think of.)

Doctors are people, too (as anyone with MDs in their family can tell you.) Like some of our posters here, many are jerks and many are arrogant. Many are overworked and impatient (YOU try having a wonderful bedside manner for 6 people per hour, 10 hours/day, 5 1/2 days/week... after the first 600 or so they all become blurs.)

Now, the solution MIGHT be to encourage the old "family doctor" system again. That wouldn't mean ditching the AMA (because you do want to be sure these folks actually have degrees and can tell a tibia from a fibula) -- but what it would mean is recreating things so that it is possible for the "Family Doctor" to survive economically in today's environment.

It might be a good and workable system -- but that won't happen unless we all find a good and positive way to encourage more people becoming doctors and having them make a living at medicine.

Me, I'm all in favor of socialized medicine. We had it in the Army. It works nicely. You get some real rock-heads, but in general the system works pretty well.

Originally posted by Byrd
Now, the solution MIGHT be to encourage the old "family doctor" system again. That wouldn't mean ditching the AMA (because you do want to be sure these folks actually have degrees and can tell a tibia from a fibula) -- but what it would mean is recreating things so that it is possible for the "Family Doctor" to survive economically in today's environment.

I certainly agree with this. It's all about the money, and this case is no exception... a return to artisanship in the medical profession would have tremendous benefits, but would require a fantastic dose of altruism on the part of prospective physicians.

But if basic human goodness can't fix this, then eventually legislation will. I have faith in the ability of free market capitalism to conquer this intrusion of monopolism as it has so many others, but these brief periods of uncertainty before action is taken certainly are tedious. Hopefully the AMA will be out of the way before I get cancer.

[edit on 15-4-2006 by The Parallelogram]

I started reading this thread hoping to observe - and perhaps take part in - a constructive discussion. Instead I've read through pages of mud slinging. It seems to me that there are important points to be raised on both sides of the fence, so why resort to an argument which obviously has no end game, rather than civilly debating the points of contention in order to broaden each side's understanding of the other?

If someone dedicates their life to the study of something - particularly something which may well decide everything from the beginning to the end of people's lives - and spends years in the pursuit of that, it is to be expected that sweeping generalizations about them or their fellows will sting a bit when mounted against them. Perhaps, if I may make this suggestion, it would be a more practical tactic for the sake of this very important (in my view) discussion's continuance to be more tolerant of this personal factor whether it sits right with you or not, simply in the name of ensuring the integrity of the discussion. To do otherwise would indicate to some that while having good intentions, the person making the generalizations might care more about being right or winning at a disagreement than they do about sharing this information and carrying out this discussion, which is - again, in my opinion - quite important.

Likewise, if someone has been witness to wrongdoing or even what some would call atrocious acts on the part of the medical community, then it is to be expected - while not necessarily expressed via the wisest choice of words in all cases - that they are going to have negative preconceptions about physicians and the organizational structures in and under which they operate, and that they will openly express these preconceptions. I disagree with the stereotypes, however I do understand them and do not disagree with the sources of such stereotypes. As such, I feel that discussion and the exchanging of views are the only way to make the perception more proportionate to the reality. Anger at the medical community or the injustices many see them as having committed can make it difficult for some people to trust physicians, or to refrain from shoehorning all of them into the category of money grubbing individuals with little true regard for patients' wellbeing. While wrong in my opinion, such stereotypes are born as the result of real experiences by many, and anyone studying medicine must be prepared to encounter such generalizations, and not to rise to the bait laid by those who hold fast to them.

All of that having been said, I would like to return to the topic at hand by suggesting the possibility that one reason for these perceptions - despite the fact that I do believe there are some nefarious activities on the part of the AMA and other medically oriented bodies - is that even the most compassionate of doctors can become complacent in their work, and allow it to become a routine. This happens with most any job, and there is no reason to believe it doesn't occur in the case of medical professionals. If you sell shoes, this might not be too huge a problem. However, if you are responsible for the wellbeing or even survival of a person, it can create the impression - either real or inferred - that you don't truly care about the patient. If we expand this to the profession as a whole (not every physician, obviously, but the overall impression given by the profession at large) then we can begin to understand why so many might be distrustful of doctors even in those cases where evidence of wrongdoing isn't present, whether it's right or not.

I believe another problem is the sheer amount of anatomical data physicians must have a firm grasp of. Suffering is subjective, and it is possible for even the most genuinely caring of doctors (even if only in subtle or even subconscious ways) to perceive great suffering from the patient's perspective as less complicated or serious from their own. This also sometimes inhibits doctors against flexibility and innovation while at work (which can also result from insurance HMOs, and other factors) because universal reliance on accepted standards can blind one to facts and functions which defy those standards. My own health problems fall in one of many such grey areas, and the excessive adherence to those standards has made my life quite difficult because my doctor(s) refuse to allow for possibilities that may be at the root of my ailments.

I feel that one solution to many of these issues would be a twofold approach combining greater patient education, and greater physician emphasis on empathy and the relative nature of suffering. I know doctors are already instructed with regard to this, but I feel it has taken on less proportional importance than it has been afforded in the past as the range of subjects physicians are exposed to continues to grow exponentially, and as the industry in which they work becomes more and more bureaucratic.

'EH............


Not much we can do, but yeah, ....

Doc i'm all with you on this one. Just realise that arguing your case on this type of site would be like going to ground zero NYC and running an Al Qaeda fund raising campaign.

Yes there is corruption in the medical field, yes it is in ever profession as well, and yes the medical field corruption does stand out more.

HOWEVER

Everyone on this board that denounced the medical profession becasue of this has displayed an ungodly amount of ignorance. Sure, bad things happen, stupid mistakes even, negligence, malpractice, blah blah blah, but EVERYONE IS HUMAN (hopefully ) Doctors are not perfect, and NEITHER ARE YOU (referring to the person reading this).

Sure, you know what, compile a list of all the bad things that have happened because of doctors, all the malpractice, negligence you want. My grandmother died because they gave her something like 3 times the amount of chemo drugs she was supposed to have. Come on, compile that damn list. Now, compile a list of all the GOOD things the medical profession has done. I guarantee you, the list of GOOD things will be 10,000 times longer!!!

The same people that b1tch and complain and denounce ALL doctors, are the same ones that say they hate the police, and that they want nothing but for all the cops in the world to die......but they are the first ones to call the cops for help, and cry to them when someone breaks into their house and steals their PS2.

Raise your hand if you think most doctors are good for nothing bastards. Now, promise me that for the rest of your life, you will never go to the doctors again for anything. Ooops, shot....car accident...disease....infection....your wife gets knocked up....nope, don't go to the doctors, they are all bastards. I mean, wouldn't it sort of be hypocrtical to go to some place and ask help from the same people you claim are incompitent at helping people?

Saying all doctors are bastards isn't much differant than saying all white people are rich snobby assholes, or all black people are dumb. A) It's false, and B) it's beyond ignorant.

Phew, sorry, had to run my own little al qaeda fund raising campaign.

Originally posted by bsl4doc

I'm curious, how did the hospital explain the emergency bowel surgery? In any kind of cance, obviously there will be a chance of emergency surgeries being necessary, but there is always a pathology to support it. If the pathology of this case obviously developed over a period where little to now treatment was given, how did they explain it away?

You'll have to continue being curious. We've shared enough information about our family's tragedies. Landis is still angry after yesterday's posts.

What we've been through and what we've seen is enough to say that America's health "care" workers are pathetic.

Originally posted by Byrd

America is the land of the free, and you're free to choose other treatments or no treatments.

Are you sure you're living in the US? Most people belong to an HMO. That means they're limited to a specific pool of medical "professionals". A PPO offers a slightly broader range of choices, but there are still limitations.

The truth is that, in the 21st century, only the rich receive truly good health care.

Doctors are people, too (as anyone with MDs in their family can tell you.) Like some of our posters here, many are jerks and many are arrogant. Many are overworked and impatient (YOU try having a wonderful bedside manner for 6 people per hour, 10 hours/day, 5 1/2 days/week... after the first 600 or so they all become blurs.)

No kidding. If they've lost their people skills, or never had them in the first place, they should find another business to work in. Medicine is supposed to be about caring for the patient. All we've (Landis & I) seen is that people are more interested in their breaks, their paychecks, and what they can steal from the med drawers.

I will provide details on my last statement if necessary.

Me, I'm all in favor of socialized medicine. We had it in the Army. It works nicely. You get some real rock-heads, but in general the system works pretty well.

The Canadians have socialized medicine and all I've heard from them is they'd rather have our system. Apparently, neither works as intended.

I'd like to hear from the English and other European citizens about their medical systems. How about some input, neighbors.

bsl4doc, please excuse yourself from this solicitation due to your obvious bias.

I have read this thread, and I have to say I'm not surprised by any of the extreme comments made on both sides...

I too find that the majority of MY experiences with physicians has been poor. You need to understand that I speak not only as a patient, but as an employer who employs a team of doctors in a business.

As a whole, the level of arrogance & defensiveness found in the profession is only rivaled by attorneys... That is not to say there aren't really any good doctors (or lawyers for that matter), but in my personal & professional experience they tend to behave very much like well educated mechanics (or children)...

There is an entire range of competence found in the medical profession, and if there is anything that gets under my skin quickly, it's a physician who lacks the common sense to deploy a few social skills when treating patients. I find that for those who are on the bottom end of the competence scale, there is a cultural protection they receive from the AMA and their fellow physicians.

In my view, open disclosure of patient complaints would clean up the profession fast! But the AMA is never going to allow that to happen...



[edit on 16-4-2006 by loam]

Originally posted by xxvalheruxx

Raise your hand if you think most doctors are good for nothing bastards. Now, promise me that for the rest of your life, you will never go to the doctors again for anything. Ooops, shot....car accident...disease....infection....your wife gets knocked up....nope, don't go to the doctors, they are all bastards. I mean, wouldn't it sort of be hypocrtical to go to some place and ask help from the same people you claim are incompitent at helping people?

Not at all... for instance, if said bastards had a monopoly on their industry.

That being the point of this thread and all.

As for myself I haven't been to a physician's office in eight years. I've been to the emergency room twice, and I've gotten sick two or three times, but guess what? people can recover from a lot of diseases without shelling out $1500 for a shot or a bottle of pills.

[edit on 16-4-2006 by The Parallelogram]