Religion is not the big killer. Masonry is.

Originally posted by pepsi78

Originally posted by Trinityman
The United States isn't in the Bible either. But I take it you and I can agree that it exists?

I can see your responce is more and more low, of course without any contra argument I would do the same thing, the fact that united states is not in the bible is because united states does not refer to god personaly , it's not about god so why should it show up in the bible.
You can pray to god, that is specified in the bible, you can falow the 10 commandmends , that is also specified there, and god said worship united states

because it's me, your hilarius.

No, I realized that which is why I changed it to Pope. My point is that you are not only claiming that the Bible is infallable, but exclusively all-encompassing. My friend, the great book was inspired by God alright, but written by men. Only a small number of radicals believe that it is entirely correct in every particular, as it is riddled with inconsistencies and contradictions.

So, religious or not, you just can't say that if something isn't in the Bible then it is wrong. For example it doesn't tell us which day is the Sabbath, but in Jesus' time it was Saturday. So are we all wrong to go to church on Sunday?

Originally posted by Hobbes

Originally posted by Trinityman
The Pope isn't in the Bible either. But I take it you and I can agree that he exists?

Funny you should mention that... I just overheard a very convincing argument that the pope is anti-catholic.

I suggest that if this discussion goes in that direction, we all agree to just let it go, and go watch the game.

OK, it's official. This thread is doing my head in. I'm desperately trying to understand what Pepsi is going on about but I think I'm failing.

Perhaps if I focus on the game someone might score

Originally posted by pepsi78
Show it to mi in the bible

prove it with the bible.
There is nosuch thing nada, nothing, zero, take the bible and see that I'm right.
the cross is descriebd as a torture instrument and that is about it.
There is no refernce that you have to worship it or make it a simbol of god.
With out any clames to your side of the argument I dont see how this will work, since the bible is the only world of god then I dont see how.

Okay, I think you've given me the tools to show the hole in your logic...

The Bible does not describe the cross as a symbol of God. We agree on that.

Christians have adopted the cross as a symbol of God. Can we agree there?

There is nothing wrong with this symbolic use of the cross, as far as the Bible is concerned, because a) it represents the god of the Bible, and b) Christians aren't worshipping it, they are worshipping the god it represents. Can we agree there?

As well, the Papacy recognizes and sanctions the use of the cross as a symbol of the god of the Bible. If it's ok with them, it's not against the Christian religion. Can we agree there?

If we are in agreement on all of the above points, then the following should hold: It is ok for the all-seeing eye to be used as a symbol of the god of the Bible, if the Christian regarding it considers it to be a symbol of Him, and not of some other God.

No, I realized that which is why I changed it to Pope. My point is that you are not only claiming that the Bible is infallable, but exclusively all-encompassing. My friend, the great book was inspired by God alright, but written by men. Only a small number of radicals believe that it is entirely correct in every particular, as it is riddled with inconsistencies and contradictions.

then your basing your thoughts and geting stuff from some where else, why dont you just admit that masonary is in contradiction with the bible.

So, religious or not, you just can't say that if something isn't in the Bible then it is wrong.

I didint say that, not everything, just what is related to god when it's about god, for all other stuff there is visa card master card...etc.
So basicly what the bible says is that god does not like to be impesonated by
simbols,and all other thing, related to god(not to our every day life) that are not included in the bible.
So you can do anything you want, the bible does not talk much of how you should wake up, or how you should sleep, or how you should drink, or how you should walk on the street, no , the bible simply refers of your spiritual self and how you should act on that part, it says what you have to folow the 10 commandment which are not bad at all, I'm a crestin, but I dont belive in the cross, my religion says I should, but why kiss an object that was a torture instrument for the son of the god, doing the cross is like torturing crist again, who gave us the right to impersonate the creator of the universe with different simbols, and who gave us the rigth to make icons of him, you sure that is good in the icon?have you seen him before?

It does not have to do with united states or the pope, and you know what,it's wrong to kiss a man's hand and to worship that person, I dont like the pope,he thinks he is god replacement on earth which is not acceptable

For example it doesn't tell us which day is the Sabbath, but in Jesus' time it was Saturday. So are we all wrong to go to church on Sunday?

yes it does, sabath, sabato, in latin means saturday.
And sabath was the 7th day, constantin the great changed it as he pleased, you see the curch does not always represent god and his wishes, the only thing you can depend on is the bible and the universal laws of the univese, tradition comes from people, not from god, anything that comes from people does not relate to god, and it's just human, as we humans are so small in concept we can not imagine a big power such as this, nature in general relates to creation, and as the whole universe is in motion and makes sence there must be some one gluing it all toghether, but to think god relates to an eye, or a cross, or small human things, it's insane.
What is more insane is to start painting stuff all over the place imagining god looks like that when in fact it does not.
simbols, icons, crosses, you name it are just not related to god.


That's why the bible does not mention about them and even incriminates such acts,because it's idiotic.


[edit on 16-6-2006 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by pepsi78
why dont you just admit that masonary is in contradiction with the bible.

It's masonry, or freemasonry. Not masonary.

Why are you insisting I 'admit' this? I don't agree with your assertion at all. Given your presumed in-depth knowledge of freemasonry perhaps you could point out to me exactly what it is about freemasonry that you feel is in contradiction with the Bible.

PS No-one scored

Originally posted by Trinityman

Originally posted by pepsi78
why dont you just admit that masonary is in contradiction with the bible.

It's masonry, or freemasonry. Not masonary.

Why are you insisting I 'admit' this? I don't agree with your assertion at all. Given your presumed in-depth knowledge of freemasonry perhaps you could point out to me exactly what it is about freemasonry that you feel is in contradiction with the Bible.

PS No-one scored

forget it, I can do something better, masonary is not clean,I tend to stay away from this threads, it's just not worth it, the eye and the piramid is not god , and the bible does not talk about everything it just talks about god and human relation with god , it talks specific on this category, simbols are not included in this category but are related to this category because they are about the creator, if the creator wanted such things it would of said so, not even the cross is included .

And god said from today all will draw eyes because eyes are the simbol of me

how ironic this sounds and I shall be above piramid and I shine like the sun, there is no such thing.

[edit on 16-6-2006 by pepsi78]

Well pepsi

I'm none the wiser as to what your point was, but I wish you well on your journey of discovery.

God bless

Originally posted by pepsi78
why dont you just admit that masonary is in contradiction with the bible.

For the same reason that you won't admit that it is not.

So, besides the graven image thing (which we've shown that you are wrong on), in what other way is Masonry in contradiction with the Bible?

Originally posted by pepsi78
So basicly what the bible says is that god does not like to be impesonated by
simbols,and all other thing, related to god(not to our every day life) that are not included in the bible.

Nope, says that he doesn't like being replaced by other gods. And he doesn't want you depicting other gods.

Originally posted by pepsi78
but why kiss an object that was a torture instrument for the son of the god

This is off-topic... you've got issues with mainstream Christianity, something that doesn't pertain to Masonry.

Originally posted by pepsi78
who gave us the right to impersonate the creator of the universe with different simbols

Ok, I'll concede here. If you define religious views such that symbolism is sinful, then yes, Masonry is contradictory to those views. So is mainstream Christianity, and in fact, so is every organized religion that immediately comes to mind.

Originally posted by Hobbes

Originally posted by pepsi78
why dont you just admit that masonary is in contradiction with the bible.

For the same reason that you won't admit that it is not.

So, besides the graven image thing (which we've shown that you are wrong on), in what other way is Masonry in contradiction with the Bible?

Originally posted by pepsi78
So basicly what the bible says is that god does not like to be impesonated by
simbols,and all other thing, related to god(not to our every day life) that are not included in the bible.

Nope, says that he doesn't like being replaced by other gods. And he doesn't want you depicting other gods.

Originally posted by pepsi78
but why kiss an object that was a torture instrument for the son of the god

This is off-topic... you've got issues with mainstream Christianity, something that doesn't pertain to Masonry.

Originally posted by pepsi78
who gave us the right to impersonate the creator of the universe with different simbols

Ok, I'll concede here. If you define religious views such that symbolism is sinful, then yes, Masonry is contradictory to those views. So is mainstream Christianity, and in fact, so is every organized religion that immediately comes to mind.

the bible does not mention one single simbol.
the bible talks what you should respect it talks that you should pray but you will never find the bible talking about god as a simbol of some object, you should if it were to be, because the whole bible is based on this subject,but you wont.

It's incompatible with the bible, further more you didint aswer about the altar, what is an altar doing an a lodge?

So the question is how do you know that simbol is for cristianity since it's not present in the book

[edit on 16-6-2006 by pepsi78]

[edit on 16-6-2006 by pepsi78]

Another thing is where did you get the idea that the eye above the piramid or the all seeing eye as you call it is the eye of god?
Where from?

Originally posted by pepsi78
the bible does not mention one single simbol.

Ok, fine... I'll bite. It mentions doves, as a symbol of the presence of the holy spirit. There... one single symbol, negating your claim.

Originally posted by pepsi78
It's incompatible with the bible, further more you didint aswer about the altar, what is an altar doing an a lodge?

It holds the symbols of our order.

This was already answered, though... there is a fixture in some lodges that is referred to as 'the altar'. We don't worship at it, so it has not got religious meaning like you are looking for.

Originally posted by pepsi78
So the question is how do you know that simbol is for cristianity since it's not present in the book

Assuming you mean the all-seeing eye, again, that symbol is *not* a symbol for Christianity. It is a symbol of the Deistic creation presence that I believe in.

A Christian, however, will say that it represents his god. How do I know? I've heard them say so... heard similar from men of many different faiths, in fact.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Another thing is where did you get the idea that the eye above the piramid or the all seeing eye as you call it is the eye of god?
Where from?

From the lectures and rituals given within my lodge.

It is a symbol that has importance and meaning to us. We did not claim that it has meaning to *anybody else*. For you you to just tell us that we are wrong about our symbols and personal meanings is just ludicrous.

From the lectures and rituals given within my lodge.

And where do those lectures say it comes from?
eventualy it has to come from some where.
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[edit on 16-6-2006 by pepsi78]

The cross is a Christian symbol of God. So is the dove.

The cross is a reminder of the sacrifice of christ, the dove represents the untainted sacrifice. To say its a symbol of God is a little vauge.

The Pope isn't in the Bible either. But I take it you and I can agree that he exists?

Not all christians are catholic. Therefore, non-catholics append no legitimacy to the pope. In fact, most catholic dogma such as Puragatory, the transubstantiation, and baptismal regeneration cannot be found anywhere in the bible. So, its obvious you don't truely understand the differences between Chrisitan denominations.

The cross is a Christian symbol of God. So is the dove.

Says who? who said it first? show it to me.
Who invented this?
did god say it?
did the bible say it?

The Pope isn't in the Bible either. But I take it you and I can agree that he exists?

he is not in the bible because he is not important for the bible, besides the people that write the book, do you see them talking about priests already present at that time , do you see them saying to warship them?
The bible is not made to talk about every living thing on this earth, it talks only about god, and how to folow god, if there were simbols that needed to be falowed in the name of god they would of been present at that time and would of been mentioned, besides that the pope didint exist at that time, simbols survive the pope go's, so if simbols were present for god at that time it would of mention of them.


[edit on 16-6-2006 by pepsi78]

point out to me exactly what it is about freemasonry that you feel is in contradiction with the Bible.

We have seen that all Masons swear to conceal all the secrets of Masonry that may be shared with them. This is a direct offense to Lev. v. 4, 5: "Or if a soul swear pronouncing with his lips to do evil, or to do good, whatsoever it be that a man shall pronounce with an oath, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty in one of these. And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing."

They swear to conceal each other's crimes. This is a directly against the government, not to mention the church.

They swear to persecute all who violate Masonic oaths as long as they live--Is this loving an enemy? What does the bible say? Matt. v. 33: "Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths." But it is in direct opposition to his requirement. Matt. v. 44: "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you."

Bible Vs. Oaths

Matthew 5:34-37 "But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven . . . nor by the earth . . . . Neither shalt thou swear by thy head . . . . But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."

James 5:12 ". . . swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation."

And so much more...



[edit on 16-6-2006 by Distracto]

Originally posted by pepsi78
And where do those lectures say it comes from?

Honestly does it really matter? It's just a symbol for Pete's sake.

I have a rather crude tray hanging on the wall above my desk. I made it for my Father for fathers day when I was in the cub scouts, now that he is gone this tray is a symbol of my father. In other words it just plain doesn't matter that to anyone else it looks like a little kids junky craft project. To me it is highly symbolic.

If the Masons view the eye as symbolic of the allmighty, it really doesn't matter what you think of it. They see it and think of God. That is how symbols work.

Originally posted by Cug

Honestly does it really matter? It's just a symbol for Pete's sake.

As long as he cant aswer a simple question, what can I say.
What if I'm curios?
I like to see the eye thing and it's source, since it does not come from horus as they sustain I would like to know for where exactily?

If the Masons view the eye as symbolic of the allmighty, it really doesn't matter what you think of it. They see it and think of God. That is how symbols work.

I dont hold their belifes responsible, as I said , I dont care what they belive in, but I want a little honesty, since teh brother hood falls in the category of conpiracy theory and tehy freely came onto this site I would like to see a little bit of honesty in their aswers.


[edit on 16-6-2006 by pepsi78]

Honestly does it really matter? It's just a symbol for Pete's sake.

If you saw someone walking down the street with a Nazi Swastika, would it matter to you? (not that I'm saying Freemasons have any Nazi relation- its an example)

Its not the symbol that matters- its the meaning thats interpreted from it. Obviously symbols matter to Freemasons- or they wouldn't use so many of them so often.

point out to me exactly what it is about freemasonry that you feel is in contradiction with the Bible.

It is also quite interesting to note the overt sexism in Freemasonry, as women are barred membership. Of course, they could be accepted in the Order of the Eastern Star, but this resembles a Masonic order. It does not, however, reflect the full continueity of Freemasonic teaching. This also opposes christianity. Jesus did teach that women are to be respected and VALUED EQUALLY with men as creatures formed in God's image.

Matthew 19:3-9, Acts 2:18, Galatians 3:28, Genesis 1:27; 2:18

That's a fake Masonic organization. The real Grand Lodge of England is the United Grand Lodge of England

The Grand Lodge of England accepts female members, so only accepted Masonic organizations promote sexism?