Religion is not the big killer. Masonry is.

Originally posted by pepsi78
And where do those lectures say it comes from?
eventualy it has to come from some where.
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Nope, they originate in the lectures, which have been developed by our order over many generations. That's why I said they are masonic symbols, not Christian, or Mesopotamian, or Egyptian, or Carrot-Worshipper in origin. We decided that they have significance to us.

Originally posted by Distracto
They swear to conceal each other's crimes. This is a directly against the government, not to mention the church.

Funny, I remember swearing the exact opposite - to keep a brother's secrets (given in confidence) as long as they were legal. If a brother breaks the law, and I know about it, I'm going to treat him harsher than some regular joe off the street... the brother knows better.

Originally posted by Distracto
They swear to persecute all who violate Masonic oaths as long as they live--Is this loving an enemy?

Sure. Love the sinner, hate the sin.

Originally posted by Distracto
Bible Vs. Oaths

Same old argument getting trotted out. Priests take oaths upon taking their roles... are they in opposition with the Bible.

Fact is, the stories of the Bible contain a lot of quotes and commandments from a lot of different folks. Some of the niftier ones advocate murder, child rape, prejudice, and intolerance. Not all of them are 'God commanding us to do XYZ'. But taken out of context, you can make it say just about anything.

Originally posted by pepsi78
As long as he cant aswer a simple question, what can I say.
What if I'm curios?

But you're not curious. You have a preconcieved notion that you want to 'prove'. Every time someone has answered you, you've said 'nuh-uh, you don't know what you're talking about'.

Originally posted by pepsi78
I dont hold their belifes responsible, as I said , I dont care what they belive in, but I want a little honesty, since teh brother hood falls in the category of conpiracy theory and tehy freely came onto this site I would like to see a little bit of honesty in their aswers.

We've been nothing but honest with you. The fact that you don't believe our answers doesn't make us dishonest.

Originally posted by Distracto
It is also quite interesting to note the overt sexism in Freemasonry, as women are barred membership.

Yes, we are sexist, by strict definition. We are an organization that is strictly for men.

This also opposes christianity. Jesus did teach that women are to be respected and VALUED EQUALLY with men as creatures formed in God's image.

"Give no woman power over you to trample upon your dignity. " (Sirach 9:2, NAB)

Ok, you're really not reading the same Bible. It is full of bigotry and sexism - fitting for the eras in which it was written.

I respect women and value them equally with men. I don't see why that means I have to accept my wife into my fraternity, or why that means I should expect admission into her girl's nights out.

Nope, they originate in the lectures, which have been developed by our order over many generations. That's why I said they are masonic symbols, not Christian, or Mesopotamian, or Egyptian, or Carrot-Worshipper in origin. We decided that they have significance to us.

Aha So you made them
well I hate to brake it to you but they look identical to those of aicient egipt.
Plus pike describes them as being atribuited from there, especialy the sun and the piramid, so you can stop sustaining such non sence.

Originally posted by pepsi78
well I hate to brake it to you but they look identical to those of aicient egipt.

So what? Perhaps that means that to them, the symbol had meaning. It does not mean that the symbol has the same meaning for them or us.

Plus pike describes them as being atribuited from there, especialy the sun and the piramid, so you can stop sustaining such non sence.

Since when is Pike the end-all-be-all of masonry?

No, what is nonsense is that you are telling me that my symbol means something that I am not aware of, and that I worship someone that I clearly do not believe in.

Besides, the all-seeing eye was what we were talking about, wasn't it... now you start talking about the sun (which has different symbolism to us) and the pyramid (which doesn't have mainstream meaning to our order). So which is it you want to dispute?

My friend let's say 1 thing, simbol?
None of the masonic simbols are present in the bible , not a single 1,
from the letter G to the compas to the piramid and the eye non of them are in the bible, but yet they represent god for you.
i saw lodges with the piramid and the eye toghether glued, there are numeros drawings in lodges on the dors on the sealing with the piramid and the eye bolth toghether.
Iwill prove to you you are incontradition tothe holy bible.

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[edit on 19-6-2006 by AgentSmith]

Since you said you use the altar for nothing, that is incorect, you use it when you take an oath,you knee down before the "ALRAR" so you do use it when taking oaths.

Sure. Love the sinner, hate the sin.

(Excerpt from 1st degree initiation ceremony)
To all of which I do most solemnly and sincerely promise and swear, without the least equivocation, mental reservation, or self-evasion of mind in me whatever; binding myself under no less penalty than to have my throat cut across, my tongue torn out by the roots, and my body buried in the rough sands of the sea at low-water mark, where the tide ebbs and flows twice in twenty-four hours.

Swearing allegience to a brotherhood under pain of death is not loving a sinner. Its pledging punishment to a sinner. Its does not even relate whatsoever. It is a binding oath put forth to terrify the initiate into not reveling your brotherhoods secrets. Additionally, a sin against the brotherhood does not correspond to a sin against God. Please don't tell me you compare your brotherhood with divine providence.

[edit on 18-6-2006 by Distracto]

Ok, you're really not reading the same Bible. It is full of bigotry and sexism - fitting for the eras in which it was written.

No, you just have a very poor understanding of the Bible.

Sirach(Ecclesiastes KJV) refers to treating your wife with respect, and not resorting to Harlots if your wife doesn't satisfy your every need in reference to women(among other points reguarding sin). How about you read the passage before you make disingenious statements.

Be not jealous over the wife of thy bosom, and teach her not an evil lesson against thyself.
2: Give not thy soul unto a woman to set her foot upon thy substance.
3: Meet not with an harlot, lest thou fall into her snares.
4: Use not much the company of a woman that is a singer, lest thou be taken with her attempts.
5: Gaze not on a maid, that thou fall not by those things that are precious in her.
6: Give not thy soul unto harlots, that thou lose not thine inheritance.
7: Look not round about thee in the streets of the city, neither wander thou in the solitary place thereof.
8: Turn away thine eye from a beautiful woman, and look not upon another's beauty; for many have been deceived by the beauty of a woman; for herewith love is kindled as a fire.
9: Sit not at all with another man's wife, nor sit down with her in thine arms, and spend not thy money with her at the wine; lest thine heart incline unto her, and so through thy desire thou fall into destruction.
10: Forsake not an old friend; for the new is not comparable to him: a new friend is as new wine; when it is old, thou shalt drink it with pleasure.
11: Envy not the glory of a sinner: for thou knowest not what shall be his end.
12: Delight not in the thing that the ungodly have pleasure in; but remember they shall not go unpunished unto their grave.
13: Keep thee far from the man that hath power to kill; so shalt thou not doubt the fear of death: and if thou come unto him, make no fault, lest he take away thy life presently: remember that thou goest in the midst of snares, and that thou walkest upon the battlements of the city.
14: As near as thou canst, guess at thy neighbour, and consult with the wise.
15: Let thy talk be with the wise, and all thy communication in the law of the most High.
16: And let just men eat and drink with thee; and let thy glorying be in the fear of the Lord.
17: For the hand of the artificer the work shall be commended: and the wise ruler of the people for his speech.
18: A man of an ill tongue is dangerous in his city; and he that is rash in his talk shall be hated.

Furthermore, its interesting to note you didn't mention one of the scriptures I listed for analysis- you just misinterperted another. Here are those passages again if you want to debate them instead of disreguarding them.
Matthew 19:3-9
Acts 2:18
Galatians 3:28

Also, Sirach(Ecclesiastes KJV) is in the Old Testament. Christians follow the new testament- if we didn't we would still be perparing sacrifices in the Temple. To christians the old testament it simply a wealth of knowledge.

If you still want to resort to the old testament
Genesis 1:27; 2:18

Yes, we are sexist, by strict definition. We are an organization that is strictly for men.

As opposed to any church that offers membership to any sex. This embodies chrisitan values instead of perpetuating sexism- which is what Freemasonry clearly does.

After all you [Freemasons] are supposedly here to bring truth and light- but only to men.

The truth is your order is sexist by any definition.

[edit on 18-6-2006 by Distracto]

To be honest my only real problem is how freemasons masquerade themselves as an organization that embodies Christian values. If they did, they would not be as secretive. Nothing about christianity is hidden from the christian.

Correct the situation! Open your doors to those interested and let them stand in to witness your ceremonies! Make all your knowledge public! Jesus christ never hid anything, so if you wish to truely be an organization that embodies christian values maybe you should put an end to the secrecy and follow the teaching of christ! Stop the immature oaths of allegiance- if there is nothing to hide then swearing allegiance is counter productive. Why would you even want to swear an oath to have your tounge cut out if you reveled secrets of the brotherhood?

The only way to stop the "conspiracy" theorys is to remove the cloak of secrecy.

I will not judge you if you worship the true God, Jahbulon, Baphomet, Allah, or Buddah- its not the christians place to judge. Just don't cloak yourself in Christianity when many of you aren't even followers of Jesus Christ. Its offensive to christians, and if you consider yourselves tolerant of others faiths don't disgrace the sovereignty of those faiths by attempting to make some secular conglomeration of them. This is one of the points where Non-Masonic Muslims and Non-Masonic Christians actually agree.

[edit on 18-6-2006 by Distracto]

Ever more fascinating. Aleister Crowley was a 33rd degree freemason. I find it very hard to believe he was a member of a oranization that supposedly embodies Christian Values.

So the question is- Did Crowley agree with the supposed embodiment of Christianity in Freemasonry? Well, you see, Crowley had alot to say so I'll give you a few quotes to help you make up your mind.

Aleister Crowley had this to say about Freemasonry

from Aleister Crowley's Confessions

"I remembered that I had been made a Sovereign Grand Inspector General of the 33° and last degree of the Scottish Rite in Mexico ten years before, but I had never bothered my head about it, it being evident that all freemasonry was either vain pretence, tomfollery, an excuse for drunken rowdiness, or a sinister association for political intrigues and commercial pirates..."

He had this to say about the Devil.

From Aleister Crowley's Magick
The devil is this serpent satan. He is life and love. He is light, and his zodiacial image is capriquarius- the leaping goat, the godhead.

[edit on 18-6-2006 by Distracto]

Originally posted by Distracto
After all you [Freemasons] are supposedly here to bring truth and light- but only to men.

The truth is your order is sexist by any definition.

Not even close. There is a ladies chapter in lodges. Even boys and girls have their own chapters. Each seperate, goes back to the traditions of being "old fashioned".
Some thing that is as like a dead language in these days and times.

There are "clandestine" lodges that have both men and woman in the lodge not seperate. What of them, are they suppressing the knowledge also?

[edit spelling]

[edit on 18-6-2006 by ADVISOR]

One of the Masons said these lodges were not accepted by traditional Freemasons and cannot be deemed true freemasonry.

Read the thread.

All should accept women as members, if they don't they are sexist by banning entry according to sex.


[edit on 18-6-2006 by Distracto]

There is a ladies chapter in lodges. Even boys and girls have their own chapters. Each seperate

In addition, I have never heard of a female Royal Arch Mason (4th deg and above) inside of a traditional lodge...The names of some of the very degrees are limited to males.

Prince of Jerusalem? Its obviously gender specific! How many female princes have you heard of? If it was non-sexist, non gender specific, I believe it would read

Prince/Princess of Jerusalem

[edit on 18-6-2006 by Distracto]

Originally posted by pepsi78
My friend let's say 1 thing, simbol?
None of the masonic simbols are present in the bible , not a single 1,

You're not my friend. My friends have something called tolerance.

Actually, there are a large number of masonic symbols and references:

The Heart (particularly mentioned in Ezekiel 36:26)
The Temple of Solomon
Hiram Abiff
The two Saint Johns
The Royal Arch Tau (particularly mentioned in Ezekiel 9)
The Acacia (a.k.a. the #tah in Exodus 25:10), (a.k.a. the building of the Tabernacle in Exodus 26), (a.k.a. the building of the Ark of the Covenant in Exodus 37)

I'll stop there... that sounds like a good start for stuff that doesn't exist. Mayhaps you would have known about these if you knew a little about Masonry.

from the letter G to the compas to the piramid and the eye non of them are in the bible, but yet they represent god for you.

I'm sure that there are a few letter Gs in the Bible, at least in the English translations.

The compass and pyramid do not represent god to me, or any mason that I am aware of.

Yes, the eye represents Deity watching over us. Ok, so it's not in the Bible, mentioned as a symbol of god. As you've pointed out, neither is the cruxifix. So what makes the eye contradictory to the Bible.

i saw lodges with the piramid and the eye toghether glued, there are numeros drawings in lodges on the dors on the sealing with the piramid and the eye bolth toghether.

I've not seen such a thing in any lodge I've visited - and the list is getting rapidly lengthy. So this is where I will proclaim you to be a liar with an agenda.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Since you said you use the altar for nothing, that is incorect, you use it when you take an oath,you knee down before the "ALRAR" so you do use it when taking oaths.

We didn't say that we used it for nothing. We said we don't use it for the religious implications you were inferring.

Originally posted by Distracto
To all of which I do most solemnly and sincerely promise and swear [SNIP]

Swearing allegience to a brotherhood under pain of death is not loving a sinner. Its pledging punishment to a sinner.

That makes no sense. When the oaths are sworn, the initiate is saying 'If I break the rules, this is what should be done to *me*.' It does not talk about one brother hunting down and punishing another.

That all said, those punishments are explicitly symbolic, and explained as such. The idea is that the candidate is saying 'while I may only be chastised or expelled, here is what *should* be done to me if I break my obligation.' And some jurisdictions have removed that section altogther.

It is a binding oath put forth to terrify the initiate into not reveling your brotherhoods secrets.

More accurately, to impress upon him the seriousness with which we take our order.

Additionally, a sin against the brotherhood does not correspond to a sin against God.

Are you claiming that it should be?

Originally posted by Distracto
No, you just have a very poor understanding of the Bible.

I'd debate you on this if it wasn't so far off-topic.

As opposed to any church that offers membership to any sex.

Not all churches embrace the modern Euro-American ideal of sexual equality, even in this day and age.

Regardless, is the point you are trying to make that Freemasonry is the root of all evil because it is a men's only fraternity, openly and traditionally?

After all you [Freemasons] are supposedly here to bring truth and light- but only to men.

You have a fundimental misunderstanding of Freemasonry. Our order is not here for any such purpose. Freemasonry's purpose is to make good men into better men. 'Bringing truth and light' is more the job of one's church and faith.

The truth is your order is sexist by any definition.

So what? That is not inherently a bad thing.