Should Israel Divide Jerusalem???

With PM Rabin, we came closer than perhaps ever, to reach an accommodation that both Arabs and Israelis could have lived with. The agreement was not final; the Jerusalem issue had not been resolved. The Gaza Strip was. That was the easy one as Sharon showed later. The West Bank was also to be 99% returned to the Arabs. Palestinians. Almost all of the illegal settlers would be withdrawn. This is of course the part of the deal that cost Rabin his life.

The Golan Heights can be returned to Syria anytime Syria wants to make Golan a weapons free, non belligerent zone. Presently, Syria finds Israeli occupation more useful as a propaganda issue to keep the home folks riled up.

East Jerusalem. This is the part that was under Jordan’s administration post 1949, until 1967. Jordan did a very poor job in the administration. Jewish people were denied access to the Wailing Wall - West Wall. This foul deed prompted Moshe Dyan to say, on capturing East Jerusalem,” Never again!” Never again will Israel surrender the Wailing Wall. It is the one nonnegotiable issue.

The West Wall is integral to the Temple Mount. On the top of the Mount are 2 of Islam’s most holy sites. The Dome of the Rock which covers the rock Abraham nearly offered Isaac. The al Aqsa Mosque, from which point Mohammad went to Heaven and returned. Any Arab would die for either site. Israel has handled its capture of those sites admirably.

Everybody knows how to end this dispute. The Arabs get Gaza - they already have it - they get 99% of the West Bank and most of East Jerusalem, subject to the caveat mentioned above. The boundaries are modified slightly to make security easier.

Now here’s the kicker. The United States must furnish a peacekeeping force of 10,000 to 15,000 men for perhaps 10-20 years. Or until such time as the Israelis and Palestinians have established a state of civility between them. In addition, I’d suggest a commitment by the U.S. to pay Israel $5 or $6 billion a year and to pay the Palestinian state about 75% of that, say $3 or $4 billion a year.

Corruption? You never have to permit corruption unless you want to do so for your own nefarious reasons so don’t mention corruption as an obstacle. After all, Sharon’s son (and Sharon, too) were caught stealing. Hey, we have all the corruption in the US you could ever want. But, as some writers suggest, peace in the Middle East is not on America’s agenda.

great post don, it seems that peace is finnally within reach if all the party's involved would just agree to the plan you've shown, it might be that we need to send you over there don as a mediator, the problem that still exists is that when you give the palestinians an inch, they try and take a mile. were seeing that right now in gaza which raises the question can we trust the palestinians to not try to take more land than has been given to them??

also the golan heights is a military advantage for those who possess it.

Originally posted by donwhite

The Golan Heights can be returned to Syria anytime Syria wants to make Golan a weapons free, non belligerent zone. Presently, Syria finds Israeli occupation more useful as a propaganda issue to keep the home folks riled up.

some believe that if israel gives up the golan heights that their demise would soon follow because they would have given up their greatest geographical advantage. defending israel ( i've heard ) is impossible without the occupation of the golan heights...i'm not sure if this is true but if it is, it would spell their doom.

[edit on 9-5-2006 by the_sentinal]

Originally posted by Deep_Blue
Gaza citezins and Westbank citezin cannot visit Jerusalem.

Got it

And is this the result of Nice Calm Arab's coming into Israel to work at their Job and to return home every evening, after having the opportunity to better themselves and provide for the family?

No it is due to the underlying problems within the Radical Fringe of the Moderate Arabs that see Israel, as a tumour that needs to be removed, One Suicide bomber at a time.

Unfortunately, the Moderate Arab is far to polite and humble to shake these Terrorist from their midst, and deal with them as they should. Whether coersion or outright fear is a factor, I can not say, but look at Hiafa, for example.

Arabs living here are basically civil. They contribute to the community and partake in national responsibilities, (But I do not believe they have a role in the Military), by voting and even electing Arab Representatives in the Knesset. They have a wonderful life, and a life many in the West Bank and Gaza would love to have. Not only that, they deserve to have.

But of course, the elected leaders of late are terrorists, and unforunately, they have their own agenda and care little for what is best for their own people.

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by ShaneThey contribute to the community and partake in national responsibilities, (But I do not believe they have a role in the Military), by voting and even electing Arab Representatives in the Knesset.

Yes Muslim and Christian Arabs are exempt from millitary service in Israel. Only the Druze need to serve, but while they are Arabs (e.g. by Languae) they developed a distinct ethnic identity and do not identify with the Palestinian Arabs.

Originally posted by donwhite
The West Wall is integral to the Temple Mount. On the top of the Mount are 2 of Islam’s most holy sites. The Dome of the Rock which covers the rock Abraham nearly offered Isaac. The al Aqsa Mosque, from which point Mohammad went to Heaven and returned. Any Arab would die for either site. Israel has handled its capture of those sites admirably.

Al Aqsa, and the Dome of the Rock are on the top of the Temple Mount next to the wall.

Everybody knows how to end this dispute. The Arabs get Gaza - they already have it - they get 99% of the West Bank and most of East Jerusalem, subject to the caveat mentioned above. The boundaries are modified slightly to make security easier.

Have a look at the map of the completed sections of the wall, and where the 'Old City' is located.

www.nad-plo.org...

Israel is taking ALL of Jerusalem. Al Aqsa is well within their side of the wall, and as you pointed out Any Arab would die for either site.

The dispute is about to get even hotter because Israel can't share.

Originally posted by ProudCanadian
Jerusalem is rightfully the Jews homeland so is all of Israel! They should not have to divide what was originally theirs. The muslims have enough land for themselves. They need to butt out of Israel and leave the Jews alone. What do people have against Judaism anyway? It's the one major religion that's NOT out to convert everyone else. Jews just want to practice their religion in peace without being disturbed. But everyone has to keep picking on them and it's about time everyone just gave them a break.

How is it there's
They wernt there FIRST, they were given the land from the british.

Israel has NO RIGHT to divide israel to suit there own needs.
Palestine has every right to be angy, i would be if someone came in, took my land away, then placed large walls betwene me and my city.

Israel and Iraq are nothing but occupations, shrouded in lies.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
How is it there's
They wernt there FIRST, they were given the land from the british.

Israel has NO RIGHT to divide israel to suit there own needs.
Palestine has every right to be angy, i would be if someone came in, took my land away, then placed large walls betwene me and my city.

Israel and Iraq are nothing but occupations, shrouded in lies.

And again, we see higher thought being brought to this topic.

Pre 67 Israel was BOUGHT and Paid for. Nothing was taken from anyone my friend, nor was anything given. A preimum price was paid, and the sellers took the money and ran.

Certainly today, there could be some questions, and if Israel chooses to give back land it conquered when attacked during their Holy Day, by Egypt and Syria and other neighbourhood states that assaulted Israel, then that is something for Israel to decide upon. Fool me Once............Fool me twice......

But consider this.

If I had 100 Acres of land and You had 100 acres of land, and your land was utilized by your collegues in an attempt to run me out of my 100 acres, you know what. YOUR HOMELESS and I have 200 Acres. This ensures your failure to control your own land for being used as a lanching pad for attacks against me will never be a worry again. Sure you could be mad as hell, but your know what, go cry on the shoulder of those that cause your problem. Do come to me.

Does this makes sense?

Now Reverse this and suggest it was my land that my friends used to attack you. Do you just give back my land, so I or my friends can do the same again, and again, and again.....

As for Palestine being angry, I do not know what they have anything to be angry about. They elect Terrorists. It's their choice. Israel is not going in and setting up the PLO or Hamas to win in these elctions. If this is what THEY CHOOSE, then they should all be partying in the enclaves and shooting AK's in the street celebrating this fact.

And I would like to make a very important point here, and I trust you, and others take the time to review this.

www.jpost.com...

Muhammad Abu al-Hawa was a 42-year-old father of eight when he died last Wednesday night. As Israeli Jews were beginning our Pessah Seders and retelling the story of our exodus from Egypt and our rebirth as a free nation, Abu al-Hawa was being tortured by Fatah terrorists. As we ate our Seder meal, he was shot seven times. As we called out "Next year in Jerusalem," Abu al-Hawa's body and car were torched.

Abu al-Hawa was tortured and murdered because he stood accused of committing what the Palestinians consider a capital crime.

Who cares, He commited a crime, and deserves this death for capital offenses, many may say. Well, what was he accused of doing???

Raping Children?? Butchering his Neighbour?? Procreating with Sheep??

You tell me!


And for my Opinion, this problem will be solve as follows.

The World will make Jerusalem it's Capital.
The Vatican will make Jerusalem it's Head quarter.
The U.N. will follow what Hugo Chavez suggested and move to Jerusalem
The Sanhedrin will get to rebuild the Temple.
The Muslims will get their Holy Spots.
The Palestinians do not get Jerusalem, nor does Israel get Jerusalem.

This is the Only solution.

The Main stumbling block today, is the U.N. and it's policy. They are following the Road Map to Peace, as set in place by Clinton, which has a two step process, and the Quartet, has endoursed this completely. They have nothing ongoing to resolve this, but both Israel and Special envoys of Palestine have now indicated this could be a solution.

And as for International Support, the E.U. ( whatever it was called in 48 ) also indicated this would be a viable solution, but at that time, neither Israel or the Palestinians welcomed this suggestion.

So the matter could be resolved nice and peacefully, and most parties are ready.
Why is it not done? TIME

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by Shane

And again, we see higher thought being brought to this topic.

Pre 67 Israel was BOUGHT and Paid for. Nothing was taken from anyone my friend, nor was anything given. A preimum price was paid, and the sellers took the money and ran.

Certainly today, there could be some questions, and if Israel chooses to give back land it conquered when attacked during their Holy Day, by Egypt and Syria and other neighbourhood states that assaulted Israel, then that is something for Israel to decide upon. Fool me Once............Fool me twice......

You are confused. All of the land owned by Arabs who fled in fear of their lives before the 1948 war was stolen by Israel. Hundreds of thousands were not allowed to return to their homes whic were taken by the Israeli absentee property confiscation law.

Israel took the land in Palestine in the 1967 war where they attacked first. It was a sneak attack where they bombed the Arab airforces as they sat on the ground.

The 1973 war was where, on the Jewish holiday, the Arabs attacked in an attempt to reclaim the land Israel stole in the 1967 war.

[edit on 14-5-2006 by Malichai]

The Sanhedrin will get to rebuild the Temple.
The Muslims will get their Holy Spots.

But the Dome of the Rock sits on the site the Jews want for their temple.

You can't have both.

In order to rebuild the Temple they would first have to steal the most important Islamic site in Palestine.

Originally posted by Malichai

The Sanhedrin will get to rebuild the Temple.
The Muslims will get their Holy Spots.

But the Dome of the Rock sits on the site the Jews want for their temple.

You can't have both.

In order to rebuild the Temple they would first have to steal the most important Islamic site in Palestine.

The Most important Site in Palestine is the Temple My Friend. It has been such since Abraham. It is where Allah Dwelt. It is where the Temple was constructed so this could be so.

What is more important to both Arabs and Israel?

Having God live amoungst them, or the way things are today?

After all, Mohammed was a just prophet. We all agree on this, But Allah is God of the Arabs, Israel, and Gentiles. We just give him a different name, (Allah, Jehovah, and God).

It's the Big Picture that needs to be addressed. Not the petty concerns of a terrorist organization seeking what the they failed to accomplish in 67.

Ciao

Shane

Leading upto June 1967 Israel was at War with Egypt, due to Egypt's Blocking of Sea Lane Access to Israel. This is an act of agression, and thus, the Appropriate Response was to resolve the situation, as Israel did.

The Matter of the West Bank and the Syrian Agression was unprovoked, nor started by Israel. Syria, Jordan, and the other area States, used the Response Israel provided Egypt with as the basis of an attack.

That attack was upon Civilians. It was not a Military Target. (Unless the topic of this thread is a Military Target, Jerusalem.). And again, Israel responded to these attacks.

I've spoken with many IDF personel now in Private life, and some still in active duty. These kids where scrambled as bombs where going off. Why? They were observing their Holy Day.

They were not staged and prepared for this, nor did they have knowledge anything was to be taking place that day. (The Military you suggest was the agressor)

And again, their response was exactly the appropriate one. Eliminate the Enemy and secure Stable Positons so this does not occur again.

So the tales of woe, your are noting are fabrications of those who wish you to believe this my friend.

And who is the one's who benefited the least out of all of this? Those Arabs living in the West Bank. They can today, with my full support, take Syria and Jordan to the World Court and seek compensation for the stupidity of their actions. I'd support their cause.

Do they (the Arab inhabitants) hold "RIGHTFUL" titles to the West Bank occupied by Israel since 67? Certainly. Many of them do.

Is Israel using these lands as a buffer zone against foreign attack? Certainly. And for the reasons noted elsewhere, it made sense.

Should Israel return those lands to this Arab population? Certainly. And in the light of things as they are today, this could be a reality, especially with the new Prime Minister.

Will this bring peace to the Middle East? No. Jerusalem is the problem.

And now we're back to my other Posts.

Ciao

Shane

I wasnt here for a while. I readed the whole posts.

We had a mission to capture couple palestinies that plannig to blow them self off,so after one cold crazy night we took 3 palestinies in they house!
when we entered the house we so a lot of explosives!! after short TALK with thoese palestinies they told us that they was supouse to blow them self in 3 diffrent places Haifa,Tel-aviv and Beer sheva!

They scereamed that "We will fight you dirty ***** ****** ****" that they will not stop the terror until they will destroy us!!!



Here comes the question WHAT THE FU..K IS THE PURPOSE OF GIVEN UP THE ISRAELI LAND??!! Its was stupid to give the israeli land then and it will be stupid to givet the land now!!!!!





[edit on 14-5-2006 by Legion877]

I've spoken with many IDF personel now in Private life, and some still in active duty. These kids where scrambled as bombs where going off. Why? They were observing their Holy Day.

Again, you are confused.

You are talking about two different wars as if they were the same.

The 1967 war where Israel occupied the West Bank, Gaza, and Golon was NOT on a Jewish holiday.

The 1973 Yom Kippur War where the Arabs tried to take back land stolen by Israel was on a Jewish holiday.
en.wikipedia.org...

In both of these wars never was there a single Arab plane flying over land recognized as Israel [pre-1967 border].

Nor was there one single Arab tank driving on Israels land.

1967 was an Israeli act of aggression. 1973 was the Arabs taking back what was theirs, and liberating the occupied people.

The problem with your arguments is that in annexing land the people come with it, but Israel refuses to allow citizenship to the Palestinians.

As you say the real problem is Jerusalem, and Israel is building a wall around it as we speak making the problem even worse.

Not that denying freedom to the 4 million+ Palestinians helps anything...

[edit on 14-5-2006 by Malichai]

They scereamed that "We will fight you dirty ***** ****** ****" that they will not stop the terror until they will destroy us!!!

Would you say the same thing after living under hostile foreign military occupation for two generations?

How long would you have to be denied basic freedoms before fighting back?

Originally posted by Malichai

They scereamed that "We will fight you dirty ***** ****** ****" that they will not stop the terror until they will destroy us!!!

Would you say the same thing after living under hostile foreign military occupation for two generations?

How long would you have to be denied basic freedoms before fighting back?

Malichai you dont know what you talking about.... thoese people are animals!!!
Do you have any idea what palestineas doing ???? i will tell you!!! have you ever saw a young man that just joined the army.. they captured him and cutted his head off!!!! but this is not all sometimes they just cutting your nose or eyes!I know what im talking about i seen all this!!and they are doing this not for revange or something they doing this for they satisfaction!!!and somethimes they filming the whole execusion on tape and selling it

[edit on 14-5-2006 by Legion877]

Originally posted by Legion877

Malichai you dont know what you talking about.... thoese people are animals!!!

You sound just like a Nazi.

They are humans.

The children of the Jews and Arabs who have married are proof.

If you were denied freedom for 39 years you would hate the occupiers at least as much.

Originally posted by Malichai

Originally posted by Legion877

Malichai you dont know what you talking about.... thoese people are animals!!!

You sound just like a Nazi.

They are humans.

The children of the Jews and Arabs who have married are proof.

If you were denied freedom for 39 years you would hate the occupiers at least as much.

Again you are not listening to me.I didnt say they are not humans im serving with guy that arab too and he is pretty nice guy! Im saying to you that what they are doing isnt human !!!it doesnt matter how many years i would be without no fredom i will never cut human child head off when he is crying and begging you not to do this!!! you can find this type of movies in internet pretty simple but im not sugesting to see it! i saw this crap for 2 years ,and from here starting the whole hate and revange because they kill my frined and im angry doing the same to them!

www.jpost.com.../JPArticle/Printer

according to this bush is asking ehud olmert to consult jordainian king abdullah before making any ground changes in the west bank, (what gives??) i guess israel has lost it's right to make it's own decisions now?? this is getting sad.....

posted by Shane

posted by Agit8dChop
How is it the Israeli's? They weren’t there FIRST, they were given the land from the British. Israel has NO RIGHT to divide Israel to suit there own needs. Israel and Iraq are nothing but occupations, shrouded in lies.

All Jewish held land in Pre 67 Israel was paid for. Nothing was taken from anyone. A premium price was paid, and the sellers took the money and ran. Today, post 1967, there could be some questions. If Israel chooses to give back land it conquered then that is something for Israel to decide upon.
[Edited by Don W]

First, A/Chop has lumped two different scenarios into one. I insist it is a “he said, she said” endless circle to argue any rights or claims prior to 1967. It just gets you nowhere. So why keep it up? The Six Day War OTOH, is a clear, well defined and well understood time-line. Perhaps we could leave it to God to deal with the pre-1967 conditions?

But consider this. The Palestinians failure to control their own land being used as a launching pad for attacks against Israel has long-term ramifications.

PM Ytzak Rabin was willing to return 99% of the confiscated land in exchange for real peace. Chairman Arafat missed the opportunity. The Israeli public was divided 49%/49% +2% on the issue of land for peace. Under a strong and the last vet of the 1948-49 War of Independence in politics, Rabin could have pulled it off. Sharon’s approach has the primary disadvantage it is neutering the Palestinian Authority. It makes the only governing authority in the Occupied Territory unable to govern. I’m sure this side effect was both intended and welcomed. Sharon and his successors are going to draw the map to suit their own vision of a “safe” Israel. It won’t work.

Do you just give back my land, so I or my friends can do the same again, and again, and again . .

No. It is called the “spoils of war.” But whoops! Unfortunately, it is also in violation of the United Nations Charter which is the parent of Israel. And therein lies the rub. Can a lawful state be born unlawfully?

They elect Terrorists. It's their choice. Israel is not going in and setting up the PLO or Hamas to win in these elections. If this is what THEY CHOOSE, then they should all be partying in the enclaves and shooting AK's in the street celebrating this fact.

Well it comes to this. Do you believe in democracy or do you not? Now, this phoney ‘issue’ is over belligerent rhetoric used by the Hamas which you want to rub their noses in. As if you were housebreaking a puppy. Uh uh. Why do you want to do that? It won’t work.

And I would like to make a very important point here, and I trust you, and others take the time to review this.

Muhammad Abu al-Hawa was a 42-year-old father of eight when he died last Wednesday night. Abu al-Hawa was tortured and murdered because he stood accused of committing what the Palestinians consider a capital crime.

Who cares? You tell me!

We’re back to “he said, she said.” The Israelis have to give this up, as they are the only armed force in the region. Let’s quit equating Palestinian suicide attacks as equal to Israeli counter attacks. That is really apples and oranges.

And for my Opinion, The Main stumbling block today, is the U.N. and it's policy. They are following the Road Map to Peace, as set in place by Clinton, which has a two step process, and the Quartet - UN, EU, Russia and US - has endorsed this completely. So the matter could be resolved nice and peacefully, and most parties are ready. Why is it not done? Ciao Shane

Because the United States as successor to Great Britain after WW2, prefers a Middle East in turmoil. It assures the continuance of autocratic rule by 1% of the population which is pro West and amenable to Western oil companies. Pure and simple. The remaining 99% are socialists who will seize the oil fields as soon as they gain power.


[edit on 5/24/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by Shane

Originally posted by Malichai

The Sanhedrin will get to rebuild the Temple.
The Muslims will get their Holy Spots.

But the Dome of the Rock sits on the site the Jews want for their temple.

You can't have both.

In order to rebuild the Temple they would first have to steal the most important Islamic site in Palestine.

The Most important Site in Palestine is the Temple My Friend. It has been such since Abraham. It is where Allah Dwelt. It is where the Temple was constructed so this could be so.

What is more important to both Arabs and Israel?

Having God live amoungst them, or the way things are today?

After all, Mohammed was a just prophet. We all agree on this, But Allah is God of the Arabs, Israel, and Gentiles. We just give him a different name, (Allah, Jehovah, and God).

It's the Big Picture that needs to be addressed. Not the petty concerns of a terrorist organization seeking what the they failed to accomplish in 67.

Ciao

Shane

REPLY: No...... sorry, God is not Allah, and Allah is not the god of the gentiles.
The messages are totally opposite. I don't know of any Christian who's beheading people or blowing themselves up in the name of their "god." By the way, a Prophet is not a true prophet unless every single one of the prophesies come true.
edited for content.

[edit on 25-5-2006 by zappafan1]