Should Israel Divide Jerusalem???

Originally posted by ThePieMaN

Originally posted by Legion877
im sorry about your family

Im sorry about your losses as well, but if this all keeps up I think we are all going to lose big and the only people that will be coming out ahead and alive in all this are the big politicians who get to sit in underground bunkers and the Arms dealers who sell their weapons. The rest of us will all just die like dogs.

ThePieMan your solution is to change the government or something (like its gonna help)

Originally posted by Valhall

Actually, they did a bit more than that. They promised the same land (for support from each side during the war - and that war was WORLD WAR I by the way) to both the Zionists and the Arabs...that's what got the world into this mess.

[edit on 4-5-2006 by Valhall]

Ive never heard about that before - I'm not doubting you but can you provide some link or proof so that I can read up on that please.

If thats true then I agree with you that the British have a lot to answer for.

Originally posted by Jamesmickael


Ive never heard about that before - I'm not doubting you but can you provide some link or proof so that I can read up on that please.

If thats true then I agree with you that the British have a lot to answer for.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Balfour's promise to Lord Rothschild...

The Balfour Declaration of 1917 was a terse and succinct letter written by the British Foreign Secretary, Arthur James Balfour, to the then Jewish leader Lord Rothschild...

The intent of the letter was to gain Jewish support (i.e. financing) and influence for the Allied cause in World War I (particularly in the very strategic alliances with America and Russia), and was meant as a propagandist gesture, according to Lloyd George, Prime Minister of Britain at the time. In fact, George as much as admits that it was a bit like a marriage proposal prior to being shipped off to war - there was uncertainty in whether the consummation would take place. In other words, the outcome of World War I was unclear at the time of the declaration.


McMahon's promise to Sharif Hussein...

This "what to do with Palestine" problem can be seen as far back as 1915 in a letter from Sir Henry McMahon to Sharif Hussein in which McMahon promises Sharif Hussein of Mecca control of all the areas liberated from Turkey, and within the authority of the U.K., with the exception of areas under the authority of the French, and that "cannot be said to be purely Arab" and these areas included Palestine (as discussed later). McMahon was courting the support of the Arabs in the fight against Turkey with propagandist promises, as the King was courting the Jews to ensure their support in America and Russia.

References are at the bottom.

[edit on 4-5-2006 by Valhall]

But, back on the topic of Jerusalem, which I think maybe we should get a little closer to or at least mention the name of the city...I believe someone may have called attention to the fact that there has been some straying from the topic earlier, maybe we should think about that now.

Of course, as some might know, I am wrapping up my time on the board as I have to go to work at my usual time that I do. I'll leave you good people on your honor system.

I will leave y'all with this directive that you will find in the Bible; pray for peace in Jerusalem.

[edit on 5-4-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

We are discussing it. We are discussing the historical context of how the city has been transferred since the beginning of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

Uh, no. Rationalization is the only thing that can attach the last posting to whether or not Israel should divide Jerusalem.

Had there been any attachment to Jerusalem been there, it would have been very easy to have connected the dots right back to it in that posting, in some semi-fluid way.

Anyway, gotta run; have a great day!

...to Jerusalem.

There. Now, we'll get back to our discussion.

posted by Riwka “Yes, Valhall. Of course nobody can forget history . . where would we be without our personal and worldly history? Nowhere . . And history went on after that - look at the countless negotiations between Israel and the Arab World . . and violations of that negotiations . . by each . . “ [Edited by Don W]

I was around - alive and well - when Eleanor Roosevelt was the US Delegate to the General Assembly of the UN* when modern Israel was created. “Pres. Truman made his own decision. Two days later, May 14, 1948 Israel was born at the stroke of midnight, Jerusalem time. The United States announced its recognition of the new nation only 11 minutes later.” *Truman had appointed Warren Austin, a Republican, to the Security Council post.

I repeat that only by laying aside the history - 'personal and worldly' - prior to 1967, can agreements even hope be reached. IMO.

[edit on 4/5/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by Riwka

Yes, Valhall. Of course nobody can forget history, where would we all be without our personal and wordly history. Nowhere.

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.


I often read in discussion forums about the suggestion of revisiting the 1948 partition plan.......for me, it seems as if not only people would like to forget that history is an ongoing process, but also that in reality for good reasons NO serious "corpus separatum" discussion had been held for decades.

One has to keep in mind that NONE of the negotiation partner in regard to Jerusalem ever said yes to that NON-binding suggestion - and if we today look back what history showed us, it is easy to see that neither the United Nation, nor Israel nor any arab negotiation partner thought or thinks back to that recommendation to create an internationalized "corpus separatum" for the Jerusalem area.

1. There is no basis in international law for the position supporting a status of 'Corpus Separatum“ (a separate entity) for the city of Jerusalem. Like all General Assembly resolutions, the plan for Jerusalem in Resolution 181 voted in November 1947 was only a recommendation rather than an internationally legally binding instrument (like the League of Nations' mandate for Palestine). A basis in international law for a 'Corpus Separatum“ first would have to be created and established - the United Nations never started todo so, because they overthrew that idea for the Area around Jerusalem & Bethlehem etc. decades of years ago.
   
   
2. If we look into that plan to see which area the united Nations wanted to keep seperate 60 years ago, the seperation plan includded not only Jerusalem but also Bethlehem in the south, Ein Kerem in the west, Abu Dis in the east, and Shu'fat in the north[/url]) – as we can see in todays reality, a suggestion that was nothing more than one of many inappropriate historical attempts made to examine possible solutions for the status of Jerusalem and Bethlehem, Ein Kerem, Abus Dis and Shu'fat...
   
   
   
3. Neither Israel, nor the Arab world acceptes the old UN recommendation in regards to Jerusalem.
   
   

I apologize that I did not see this post before. But now that I have - what a crock a hooey. The British, still operating under the mandate at the time, accepted the UNSCOP recommendation for a separate Jerusalem. The Jewish Agency accepted the recommendation. The Arabs (as has been typical for most of the attempted negotiations over the past century) rejected the recommendation.

Don't try to rewrite history. This wasn't some "inappropriate attempt" at something, this was an UNSCOP recommendation after careful analysis of the growing problem in the area, and the Jewish Agency agreed to it. Also, I'm very unclear why you keep repeating that there is some "nonbinding agreement"...wtf is that about? We're not talking about the agreements that both Israel and Palestine have obviously decided to treat as nonbinding (evidence being the century of breaking the agreements on both sides, right?)

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Again, references at the bottom.

[edit on 4-5-2006 by Valhall]

Originally posted by Valhall

The Jewish Agency accepted the recommendation. The Arabs (as has been typical for most of the attempted negotiations over the past century) rejected the recommendation.

Please note that

• I wrote in present tense and
  
• did not at all write “the Jewish Agency“ but Israel.
  
• wrote under 4. (- the only part of my posting you did not quote -):
  "If it has not been before: The invasion of Arab armies into the nascent State of Israel in May 1948 made the “corpus separatum“ for Jerusalem a dead letter."
  

Since we agree about the Arab world, we seem to disagree in regard to Israel.

On 3rd of December 1949 (after the war's end) David Ben-Gurion, declared in the Knesset:

source

"we can no longer regard the UN Resolution of the 29th of November as having any moral force. After the UN failed to implement its own resolution, we regard the resolution of the 29th of November concerning Jerusalem to be null and void."

On the 15th of December 1949, Ben Gurion's government declared Jerusalem the Eternal Capital of Israel.

Originally posted by Valhall

Also, I'm very unclear why you keep repeating that there is some "nonbinding agreement"

Easy to explain:

UN Resolutions can be passed under chapter 6 are non-binding recommendation; Resolutions passed under Chapter 7 of the Charter are binding on all UN members.

Resolution 181 (November 29, 1947) is a United Nations General Assembly Resolution - under Chapter 6 (non-binding)


Probably of interest in regard to my former posting:

Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs: Jerusalem in International Diplomacy, Dore Gold
(Ambassador Dore Gold - President of the JCPA - was the eleventh Permanent Representative of Israel to the UN (1997-1999). Previously he served as Foreign Policy Advisor to the former PM Bibi Netanyahu).

.

[edit on 5-4-2006 by Riwka]

Valhall

With great respect to you as your research on this is clearly extensive.

Balfour and McMahon and their governments are long dead and buried and
their ideals and promises are outdated and not relevant in 2006.

In order to solve these problems you have to start afresh from now and bring in ideas and solutions relevant to the situation as it is today.

Thats the only way that progress was made in the Northern Ireland conflict.

Riwka,

The Jewish Agency was the foundation - in fact the negotiating body - for the embryonic Israeli nation. I don't know why we (read you or anyone else who is not trying to intentionally misrepresent the historic facts) would choose to state that the UNSCOP partitioning plan in general, but more specifically the recommendation of a separate Jerusalem, was rejected by Israel. It was not. Doesn't matter how many times we say this tit for tat back and forth - you won't change the historical record.

The fact of the matter is that the most doable solution to the city of Jerusalem is for it to be taken from both sides and made a global commonwealth with global laws that give all citizens of the world access under acceptable terms. And that's without EITHER side agreeing, because apparently the game by both sides is to call an agreement nonbinding and then completely circumnavigate it.

Jamesmickael...I do not agree necessarily...unless you are suggesting we start clean NOW - not at 1967, not anywhere in the past, but now...with a UN having the gonads to fulfill one of the foundational commissions they have had since their inception - to resolve this issue. And I believe part of this resolution is through the separation of Jerusalem.



[edit on 4-5-2006 by Valhall]

i feel sorry for those whose got injured...their family killed by d conflict between palestine n d israeli. i would like to remind us..that we will got angry when someone kill our beloved ones..took our land....these kind of feelings re experienced n felt by d palestinians. n not 4gotten d israelis who live in danger by exposin' themselves to d suicide bomber. but..4 d israeli goverment..i would like to remind u....especially d top management of Israeli cabinet..ur action bring disaster to palestine n also ur own people.when u build d wall...snatch d land frm palestine (byond d limit) n also kill d palestinian in d name of security...u indirectly force ur people to live in chaotic ....d palsetine live in suffer n angriness..this lead to suicide bombin' to ur own people. this mean u sacrifise ur own blood to achieve wat u want..

A review of the UN resolutions concerning Israel & Palestine might be in order about now, so here they are:

en.wikipedia.org...

A reading of the various resolutions makes it pretty clear that Israel has more or less just ignored the UN.

[edit on 5-4-2006 by Astronomer68]

A reading of the various resolutions makes it pretty clear that Israel has more or less just ignored the UN.

we all know that,
America always veto's resolutions that goes against Israel.

posted by infinite:

Astronomer68: A reading of the various resolutions makes it pretty clear that Israel has more or less just ignored the UN.

We all know that America always veto's resolutions that go against Israel.

OK, Infinite, I give up! The flag on the left, I can’t identify it. The Stars and Bars and the Union flag a/k/a Union jack I recognize. Help me, please. For more flags, see www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/docs/flagsoftheworld.html

There was great remorse in the US of A, and over most of the Western world, as we learned of the Nazi atrocities perpetrated on Jews and others, but mostly on Jews. We could not have stopped that happening; indeed, you might say WW2 was a mighty effort to prevent genocide. (Please, let us ignore a dozen or two other genocides since 1945. We mean well. There is a gap between talking and doing.)

America has not always treated Jewish persons (or Catholics, or African Americans) well. WASP thinking. In fact, outside our larger cities, there is still very much a parochial mentality prevailing. Why do you think Republicans - since Nixon and Reagan - use all the racial “code” words throughout the South? Bussing. Affirmative action. Set-asides. And with great success! Recall Bush’s Willie Horton ad? A black criminal. As if there were no white criminals. And the Jesse Helm’s “Pink Slip” ad? Black man gets white man's job. Racism is alive and well in the US of A.

So, in re Israel, America is vetoing to keep the playing field level.


[edit on 4/6/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite
OK, Infinite, I give up! The flag on the left, I can’t identify it. The Stars and Bars and the Union flag a/k/a Union jack I recognize. Help me, please. See www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/docs/flagsoftheworld.html

Red Hand Of Ulster, Northern Ireland Flag
Smallest Province of the United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland

America vetoes to keep the playing field level.

Infinite: Red Hand Of Ulster, Northern Ireland Flag. Smallest Province of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

Well, I Am an Orange Man Too. But then, I am not religious, either.

FYI, in American politics displaying or waving the Stars and Bars is pure racism! It is identified with and shorthand for the Bud Lite drinking, F150 driving, long gun in the window rack, frazzled unkept hair, torn tee shirt, tattoo of "Mother" on one arm and "God Bless America" on the other, class of real Americans a/k/a red-necks.

See American tv at its best this weekend at www.booktv.org...


[edit on 4/6/2006 by donwhite]

It doesnt matter if the jews turn over the whole city or part of it. The palastinians will not be happy till the jews cease to exist. The islamic faith does not practice religious tolorence by stating that all other religions should come into direct submission to islam. I do believe there will be a dividing of the holy city because in the bible when it talks about the temple being built in the last days it talks about part of the gate being next to the court of the gentiles. There will be a dividing of land and i believe there will be a peace treaty signed for seven years, and 3.5 years it will seem like it worked. But before this I see something happening with iran and israel and possiblly the US. I also see a large arab coalition being lead by Russia to attack jews and take of over all of israel. I see this all happening very soon. And god himself with intervene and the whole world will see that the god of issace jacob and abraham is the only god. If anyone on here is a true christian then my message to you is pray for the jews and all of israel because the lord says I will bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you. You want to know why america is soo powerfull? It is because america has blessed the jews. We have made them propser. We have honored them. Sure there are jews who do nothing to deserve honor but who are we to question what god tells us. It is our sole act of obedience that brings are blessings. And if you follow the moral decay in this nation you will notice that we have been taking a harder stand with israel to keep up out of the international hot seat with the rest of the world. It is the true christians job to lift up the jews in prayer and in any way we can possible. If you have a jewish neighbor go meet them and be kind to them, pray for them, and bless them. When gods judgement falls on the earth the ones who bless israel will have protection from what is to come . They are a loving people with a loving religion and they are our brothers and sisters in the lord. God has made a blood covenant with them through abraham and he will honor that covenant forever. No matter what the palastinians, russians, china, ect. do god will never let the jews be wiped off the face of the earth and when you think it is getting close he will pour out his fury on all who try.

I dont care if you think im a religious nutcase. I am just telling it how is is written The bible doesnt lie and if its not true then how does it read like the evening news everyday? How many true last day prophecies are in the koran? Jesus is lord and true future messiah to israel

posted by PaRaSiTe: “It doesn’t matter if the Israelis turn over the whole city . . the Islamic faith does not practice religious tolerance . . all other religions should come into direct submission to Islam. [Edited by Don W]

Look, P-site, Jewish people are not perfect. Read the O.T. if you want to see how Israelites dealt with false gods - religions. And just look at how many Christians have engaged in mass murder in the Holy Name of Christ? What this heavy stuff being laid on Islam by either Jewish people or Christian people?

I believe there will be a dividing of the holy city because the bible talks about the temple being built in the last days it talks about part of the gate being next to the court of the gentiles.

I’m sorry, P-site, but anyone who accepts these old writings today is out of touch with reality. I cannot dispute with you because you are too, too far off key.

There will be a dividing of land . . there will be a peace treaty for seven years and for 3.5 years it will seem to work. I see something happening with Iran and Israel and the US.

P-site, if you weren’t claiming First Amendment privileges you could be confined for mental health reasons.

I see a large Arab coalition led by Russia to attack Jews and take all of Israel. I see this happening very soon. God himself will intervene . . the whole world will see that the god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the only god.

Oops, P-site! Let’s not forget our Tolerance issue.

“ . . If anyone here is a ***true*** Christian then my message is pray for the Jews . . the Lord says “I will bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you.” You know why America is so powerful? It is because America has blessed the Jews. We have honored them. Sure there are Jews who do nothing to deserve honor but who are we to question what God tells us.

Hmm? Sounds like the Nuremberg Rule. “Just following orders, mein Herr.”

It is our sole act of obedience that brings our blessings.

Oh, P-site, how easy is life when you wear a paper bag over your face.

“ . . if you follow the moral decay in this nation . . we have been taking a harder stand with Israel to keep us out of the international hot seat . . It is the ***true*** Christian’s job to lift up the Jews in prayer . . If you have a Jewish neighbor go meet them . . be kind to them . . pray for them . . bless them . . the ones who bless Israel will have protection from what is to come.

I have no comment, P-site.

God has made a blood covenant with them through Abraham . . He will honor that covenant forever. No matter what the Palestinians, Russians, China, etc. do God will never let the Jews be wiped off the face of the earth and when you think it is getting close He will pour out his fury on all who try.

I guess those Jewish people at Auschwitz wished God would have poured out something. Anything. But got nothing. Hmm? Was God sleeping, P-site? Or busy elsewhere? Or have you mis-read the Scriptures?

I don’t care if you think im a religious nutcase.

I know, P-site.

I am just telling it how is written The bible doesn’t lie and if its not true then how does it read like the evening news everyday? How many true last day prophecies are in the Koran? Jesus is Lord and true future Messiah to Israel

I’m sure the Jewish people are happy to hear this, P-site. Now go out and vote for George W. Bush again.