Can Muslims Be Good Americans???

Originally posted by Valhall
) the Muslim citizens of either country go, en masse - Holy Cow! Here's the jihad we've been waiting on! Let's rape, pillage and plunder! No, they just kept getting up every morning, going to work and feeding their children.

ok so things economically are going good right now what happens when the inflation soars the dollar devalues and things get tough...
Then these many once happy muslims turn to their religion ....

lets take a long look at that religion for it is like no other in the fact that it gives concession for pillage, rape , and murder heck half of the prophet mohammed's 22 wives were captured.......it's ok to rape the wife of an infadel as long as she was captured..surat 4:24 of the Quran

mohammed stole his step-sons wife surat:33 mohammed married a 7- year-old girl and had sex with her at the age of nine........in this country you would be considered a pedophile for that

from it's very beginnings islam has been a religion of murder and rape no other religion on earth condones what islam does ......it's a sad day when fact's are overlooked in the interest of political correctness

Greetings Fellow Believers,

On September 11th, 2001--four planes crashed. On September 13th, I bought an English translation of the Koran. "Know Your Enemy"?

I think that many of you ready to kick out Muslims should read the Koran. I am not suggesting this to try and convert you--because I assure you that I'm the same card-carrying agnostic that I was five years ago.

Whether Muslims take the Koran as law is entirely up to individuals. The Koran DOES say that Muslims are not supposed to socialize with non-Muslims. However, if you have Muslim neighbors...do they talk to you or do business with you?

There has to be ZERO TOLERANCE for terrorists. But I think America is big enough for more than one religion.

I am aware that my last post may have been a little offensive to some so in the interest of openness here is a link to some of the information quoted:

it's a religous site but the info seems accurate....

www.creationapologetics.org...

[edit on 21-3-2006 by the_sentinal]

One thing you can always count on is human frailty.

For the same reason there are so few truly devout, hardcore Christians, there are overwhelmingly more moderate muslims than any other variety. Why? Because religion is about submission and humility, and the modern world (along with our instincts, arguably) is about excess, expediency, and comfort. Those two sets of values clash and wrestle, and in MOST people, a sort of compromise is struck.

How many Christians go from town to two, shoe-less, without even their own food, depending entirely on the kindness of local people and the power of the idea of the kingdom of God? It hovers somewhere near zero, I'd bet.

The same is true of every single religion. How many hobby Buddhists are out there? How many Hindus just stayed for the festivals? Religion isn't nearly so great a danger to stability as poverty and illiteracy.

There's something anachronistic and troubling about religion in general, when faith is so much more powerful and individual, but saying that all religious people are dangerous lunatics is clearly overstating the problem.

Most folks just want to get by and see their family prosper. As literacy goes up, extreemism goes down. As the standard of living goes up, extreemism goes down.

Certain extreme sects of religion are anti-education, and anti-human. They parastitize our communities and drain us of decency. Best to do away with them once and for all, but of course you can't bomb churches. So what you have to do is make the host unsuitable for the needs of the parasite, that is to say, render them incompatible.

the_sentinal,

I don't know where you get your sources for the Qur'an, but I've never heard such nonsense (except on these boards).

Here's a reputable source:

USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts

The surah you refered to, in it's proper context, 4:23-25, in three different translations:

004.023
YUSUFALI: Prohibited to you (For marriage) are:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;-
PICKTHAL: Forbidden unto you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your father's sisters, and your mother's sisters, and your brother's daughters and your sister's daughters, and your foster-mothers, and your foster-sisters, and your mothers-in-law, and your step-daughters who are under your protection (born) of your women unto whom ye have gone in - but if ye have not gone in unto them, then it is no sin for you (to marry their daughters) - and the wives of your sons who (spring) from your own loins. And (it is forbidden unto you) that ye should have two sisters together, except what hath already happened (of that nature) in the past. Lo! Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: Forbidden to you are your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your paternal aunts and your maternal aunts and brothers' daughters and sisters' daughters and your mothers that have suckled you and your foster-sisters and mothers of your wives and your step-daughters who are in your guardianship, (born) of your wives to whom you have gone in, but if you have not gone in to them, there is no blame on you (in marrying them), and the wives of your sons who are of your own loins and that you should have two sisters together, except what has already passed; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

004.024
YUSUFALI: Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
PICKTHAL: And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise.
SHAKIR: And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

004.025
YUSUFALI: If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable: They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess. Allah knoweth best (concerning) your faith. Ye (proceed) one from another; so wed them by permission of their folk, and give unto them their portions in kindness, they being honest, not debauched nor of loose conduct. And if when they are honourably married they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for free women (in that case). This is for him among you who feareth to commit sin. But to have patience would be better for you. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith: you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their dowries justly, they being chaste, not fornicating, nor receiving paramours; and when they are taken in marriage, then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is (inflicted) upon free women. This is for him among you who fears falling into evil; and that you abstain is better for you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Just like every other Holy book, when you take passages out of context it gets totally distorted in meaning.

I gave a source for you and everyone else........did you read it ?? probably not ....i read yours which states that incest is legal..... ........did you read what you sent????


did you read my link very sobering!!

[edit on 21-3-2006 by the_sentinal]

[edit on 21-3-2006 by the_sentinal]

why dont you send in the parts of the Quran that talk about killing the infidels much more colorful reading.......

Obviously not!!!

Moved to the slugfest.

Originally posted by the_sentinal
I gave a source for you and everyone else........did you read it ?? probably not ....i read yours which states that incest is legal..... ........did you read what you sent????

Where exactly does it say incest is legal? Do you actually know how to read? Don't make things up.

And between a university website and just some other run-of- the-mill site, I'd trust the university site any day.

I'm done here. The post is there for anyone to read. The link to the university website is there for anyone to use. No sense in arguing with... ah, forget it.

Edit: Before anyone goes to say I'm making the "source argument" just because, let me be clear. The source you gave contained invalid facts. The source I gave contained the actual three most accepted translations.

I don't care about bias, everyone has a bias and every article has their bias. But I do care about facts. If the facts are incorrect, then in the simplest of terms, it's just BS.

[edit on 21-3-2006 by Beachcoma]

Originally posted by the_sentinal
why dont you send in the parts of the Quran that talk about killing the infidels much more colorful reading.......

Why don't you read the whole of the Qu'ran, learn some basic Arabic and in turn find out what the words mean. It's about time people bother to educate themselves, rather than insulting millions of people.

A lot of people here are forgetting that the london bombings/ madrid bombings and 9/11 WERE NOT DONE by muslim fanasticists. They were organised by the global elite and lots of dirty tricks to CONVINCE the public that muslims were the enemy.

I thought america was 'land of the free'. Or should it be 'land of the free - except muslims'.

Do not fall into the trap. See the truth. Expose the media for the mind controlled opinions and indoctrination that it is.

SEE THE BIG PICTURE AND DO NOT MARGINALISE 1 PART OF SOCIETY. dispose of bigotry, racial hatred and prejudice. One world. one race - but not in the NEW WORLD ORDER STYLE. The human race - all with the similar qualities and similare human flaws.

To the original poster - WHAT DOES BEING AMERICAN MEAN TO YOU?

Can Muslims be good Americans?

If I use your narrow perspective and I add a little bit of my twisted and deviant mind we can come to a conclusion or an answer that is acceptable to us all.

Is America a free country? No.
Can therefore Muslims be good Americans? Yes.

It was mentioned earlier that Muslims are worshiping Moon God, well actualy the are worshiping planet Venus, but hey what do I know.

Ps. Descent buddhist and a patriotic American?
That's so funny.

I work with three Muslim software engineers (yes, in my whitebread, homophobic, xenophobic small Illinois town).

These young men are polite, hard working, extremely intelligent, dedicated, thoughtful (except sometimes they leave the toilet seat up...but hey, that's a gender thing...not a religion thing).

We have great discussions on Islam, music, programming, government, food, normal every day things (they can't figure out why most Americans loathe President Bush...I've been happy to provide education on that matter).

Yes, on Friday's they go to their mosque and pray and if they're on deadline...they pull out their pray rugs and pray next to our servers. Never offensive, never rude and very definitely happy to be new American citizens.

So, look with new eyes instead of the eyes of prejudice and fear.

Sentinel
I got this little Spam in my inbox...

I thought it had come from a rednecks rectum...Hum...
guess it was you instead...

I like how you took out the parts that were total garbage and left all the controversial talking points in though...

as to your assertation that the Koran teaches incest and so forth...
I can't comment on the Koran, and i suspect your links translations...

But you did state that it is like no other religion...
Christianity (yep, that one that is so full of love) is riddled with "controversial" statements and actions...
to toss out a few, here are some to make you think:

Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female,
provided they are purchased from neighboring nations.

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus
21:7

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9).

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2
clearly states that he should be put to death. (on any given day, this would result in the death of half of christians since saturday is the sabbath according to some, and sunday to others)

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different
crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two
different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse
and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble
of getting the whole town together to stone them (Lev. 24:10-16)

there are several more, but these ought to keep you busy...

now Christians (as a whole) ignore or take lightly all the above requirements submitted by god...
is it insane to think that other religions use a bit of logic also?

I thought the whole thing looked familiar. I couldnt decide if I saw it on my computer screen or inside my toilet bowl. Thanks for reminding me.

Originally posted by psyfly7
A lot of people here are forgetting that the london bombings/ madrid bombings and 9/11 WERE NOT DONE by muslim fanasticists.

Oh for goodness sake!

9/11 and the London bombings were absolutely done by radical
muslims. They admit it. They revel in it. Islamofacism flavored
koolaide is a brain killer. Don't drink it.

Originally posted by the_sentinal
I am aware that my last post may have been a little offensive to some so in the interest of openness here is a link to some of the information quoted:

it's a religous site but the info seems accurate....

www.creationapologetics.org...

[edit on 21-3-2006 by the_sentinal]

Its a site that titles Muhammad as a false prophet and one that demands the killing of any other non-muslim by muslims and you expect it to be accurate?

Why not go check an online English Quran and determine for yourself what Islam teaches instead of picking up half-baked lies fed by those that have a narrow view when it comes to Islam.

If you dont want to bother reading the Quran and just want answers on specific questions, I can send you links to atleast a dozen websites run by Islamic organisations, both humanitarian and educational.. They have online chats available with scholars and Imams if interested.

After that you can make up your own mind on how you choose to view Islam.

Deny Ignorance.

I have a total of 4 muslim friends. 2 of them are now in Afghanistan fighting for freedom to save your but from Osama Bin Laden. If you don't call putting your life at risk for America then I do not know what alliegance is!!!

CAN YOU BE MORE RACIST??????????????


"christains" belive in giving everybody and equal chance and that god (IDC about me not upper-casing god, you don't capitalize mine i don't capitalize yours (altough i am not muslim i am just very sensative.... tee hee) SO THERE! lol) any how: and that god will forgive any body who sins (everybody!)

RIGHT?

and if that is your take on muslim than: DO SOME RESEARCH
that is how muslim extremeists take it, NOT most muslims nor most "arabs" at all (most "arabs" are just middle eastern). so please: think about what you say before going and trying to KILL an entire religion's "rep". please?

--YOURS TRULY--

cooldude76
私は神である

"9/11 and the London bombings were absolutely done by radical
muslims. They admit it. They revel in it. Islamofacism flavored
koolaide is a brain killer. Don't drink it." Quote from flyersfan

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Hey flyersfan - get your facts right before you start spurting ignoramusflavoured 'coolaid'. Ever think of researching the FACTS. Or do you leave that to the corporate mindbending illuminati trash media to do that work for you. You're on ATS forum - ever think of looking around it and getting some extra info that your local newsfeeder can't supply to you. Open your eyes - THERE IS A FEW BIG STORIES YOU ARE MISSING OUT ON!

As for 11frequency11' quote 'we need our butts saved from Osama"

What the **** have you been reading???

You really think that human cannon fodder is going to save your butt"? Who is going ot save your butt from GWB and his world dominating cronies?? If you really value your ass and want to save it - you are looking in the wrong direction - that **** is gonna get you from behind - from where you are least expecting it.


Back to the thead- CAN ANYONE ELUCIDATE AND GIVE ME CLARITY HERE:

what is a GOOD american????

[edit on 21-3-2006 by psyfly7]