Can Muslims Be Good Americans???

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by psyfly7
A lot of people here are forgetting that the london bombings/ madrid bombings and 9/11 WERE NOT DONE by muslim fanasticists.

Oh for goodness sake!

9/11 and the London bombings were absolutely done by radical
muslims. They admit it. They revel in it. Islamofacism flavored
koolaide is a brain killer. Don't drink it.

I STILL can't believe that people actually think OBL and friends did 9/11 and other Muslim fanatics did 7/7.

Are you high, FlyersFan? Like the other guy said, check out the proper forum at ATS, but I'll throw one out there for you...

On 9/11, at the SAME TIME the attacks were occurring, war games mirroring the attacks were also occurring.

On 7/7, at the SAME TIME the bombings were occurring, war games mirroring the bombings were also occurring. Sure is a hell of a coincidence...

Now, on topic. OP, are you high too? Did you ever hear of the 1st Amendment? It practically kills your whole argument here. But, I guess I can't blame you...

P2OG is a Pentagon plan to enrage the Muslims and make them more fanatic. In 1983, Israel put out a plan also calling for radicalizing the Muslims. That, with the professional liars lying to you every day, is strong propaganda, but it's super effective if you already hate them A-rabs/Muslims/racial epithet of choice.

Thankyou truthseeka - I was about to throw in the towel and find another forum! I am absolutely shocked that some people are so ignorant of the truth. I mean - it is not like the truth is tucked away some-where. Is is plain and evident for all to see.

Originally posted by the_sentinal
Can a devout muslim be an american patriot and a loyal citizen??
politcally, NO because he/she must submit to the mullah (spiritual leader)
who teach annihilation of isreal and the destruction of america

In Christain doctrine those who are not Christian are Pagan can can be dominated and killed

geographically, NO, because his/her allegiance is to mecca , where he/she turns and pray's to 5 times a day!

In Chritain Doctrine you hold a rosary or go to a church (etc.) They face the HOMELAND of their religon.



Intellectually, NO because he/she cannot accept the american constitution since it is based on biblical principals and they believe the bible to be
corrupt.

The Consituation separtes Church and State. It's passed on treating ALL people equal no matter what they beleif or the color of their skin. May be you should read it and the history sirroundinding it.

Socially,NO because his/her allegiance to islam forbids them to make friends with christians or jews..

Read the bible ...chritains are not supposed to marry out side their faith. Nor do they have to treat treat non christain as equals. A freind by defination is an equal.

therefore prehaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country.
they obviously cannot be both good muslims and good americans.

Your neibour, a born and raised american might be a muslim with all the rights , freedoms and obilagations as you. Do you want to deport him ? To where?

Do you just fear what you do not understand or this a knee jerk reaction?

Do you proposed beating people dure to their skin color? Or the way they spell their name?

The war is bigger than we know!!!

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
Sentinel there are several more, but these ought to keep you busy...

now Christians (as a whole) ignore or take lightly all the above requirements submitted by god...
is it insane to think that other religions use a bit of logic also?

Respectfully Sir

If I had read your post I would not have posted mine. That is/was perhaps the best post in this thread (no offense to other intelligent people).

But then the oldest man in the world should speak with wisdom.


Dead steve
Spirtuality unites. Religons divide.

Just for the record i'm not anti muslim no where in this thread have i stated that. i just felt the need to ask some hard questions about the muslim faith vs/ national patriotism

islam is the fastest growing religion in the world islamic nations seem to me to be in a constent state of upheaval & unrest. i just wonder what effect this religion will have on democracy in the long run.

Originally posted by the_sentinal
Just for the record i'm not anti muslim no where in this thread have i stated that. i just felt the need to ask some hard questions about the muslim faith vs/ national patriotism

Well, then let's ask:

Can Voodoo practititioners be good American citizens?
What about Rastafarians?
What about those Christians who put God above country?
What about Buddhists?
What about Mormons?
How about the Asartru?
The Shinto (Japanese)?
Jews?
Agnostics?
Athiests?

Many of them have religious texts that are contradictory to the laws of the country (including the Bible, which mandates stoning people caught in adultery and disobedient children. The Jews don't hold to the New Testament but only hold to the Old Testament.

Should we question their ability to be good citizens?

And what about those Biblical literalists (let's say, Fred Phelps) who would indeed advocate Christian killing of homosexuals or pagans (I have received letters from his organization (threats... he mistook me for someone else) and he certainly wanted that person dead.) Do you think HE can be a good citizen of the United States?

All of them have religious beliefs or books that are not those of a "Christian nation."

If you question the Muslims (I take it you don't actually know any) then you need to start questioning those others.

Can Voodoo practititioners be good American citizens?
What about Rastafarians?
What about those Christians who put God above country?
What about Buddhists?
What about Mormons?
How about the Asartru?
The Shinto (Japanese)?
Jews?
Agnostics?
Athiests?

none of these religions have bombed the US mainland ethier so the compairison is not the same .......

we'll see if you hold the same belief after the next attack!!!

if the blind lead the blind both fall in the ditch.

mod edit: quote fix

[edit on 22-3-2006 by parrhesia]

I'm sorry sentinel but muslims did not attack america. A number of crazy, desperate brain washed people who happened to be muslim attacked america.

Timothy Mcveigh is not a good example of an average american. In that vain; the people who flew planes into the world trade center are not good examples of average muslims.

Spiderj

Originally posted by the_sentinal
Can a devout muslim be an american patriot and a loyal citizen??
politcally, NO because he/she must submit to the mullah (spiritual leader)
who teach annihilation of isreal and the destruction of america

geographically, NO, because his/her allegiance is to mecca , where he/she turns and pray's to 5 times a day!

Intellectually, NO because he/she cannot accept the american constitution since it is based on biblical principals and they believe the bible to be corrupt.

Socially,NO because his/her allegiance to islam forbids them to make friends with christians or jews..

therefore prehaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country.
they obviously cannot be both good muslims and good americans.

The war is bigger than we know!!!

Holy crap, your the GENIUS of the Menelliam.

NO because he/she must submit to the mullah (spiritual leader)
who teach annihilation of isreal and the destruction of america

You obviously know NOTHING about muslims. Nothing in the Koran even states anything close to that.

Geography: hahaha, so you think ALL the muslims in all western countrys do that? Again your intelligence annoys me.


With the friends part, I know people who are Muslam and have many Jewish friends.

therefore prehaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country.

Yeah, and PERHAPS you should shhhhh!

Try reading the Koran before you make dumbassed posts like this, buddy.

oh and
The war is obviously smaller than we know, because there is more Police in NewYork than Troups in Afghanistan.

On ALL points your poorly written points your WRONG.

mod edit: censor circumvention



[edit on 22-3-2006 by sanctum]

[edit on 22-3-2006 by parrhesia]

You pick (jimmy carter is smarter) for a name ....then call me a idiot . boy if that is'nt the pot calling the kettle black!!!

as for your last post spiderj...i gave an example of a muslim attack whether it was good or not is a matter of opinion i happen to think it was good...

but you know what opinions are like...anyway yes those were a hand full of muslims who committed the attack but ...ask yourself how many muslims silently
approved of the actions against the US....

Originally posted by the_sentinal
...ask yourself how many muslims silently
approved of the actions against the US....

A very small number compared to those muslims (especially american muslims and even more especially the families of the american muslims who died in the WTC attacks) who disapproved of those same actions.

IMO of course and we've already been over what opinions are worth.

Having said that I feel my opinions are right.

SPiderj

PS Yes I'm sure you feel your opinions are right as well. We are at lager heads, let us drink...I know nice restaurant owned by an average muslim. No pork on the menu but he does a mean fettucini.

to the_sentinal: muslims are the only ones to bomb our main land? did you happen to miss a chapter in your history books entitled WWII? you know, the one that ended with a picture of a big mushroom cloud? it was the one about the jap's and the german's using u-boats and hydrogen balloons to bomb us. granted they weren't as successful, but they still BOMBED us. right here in our homeland.

Sorry, the_sentinal, but I'm going to have to jump on the bandwagon as well, but for different reasons than those (other than Byrd) that came before me. In 1960 this very question was raised, though not in regards to being good citizens. There was a fella who was the first Catholic to run for president, having a good chance of winning. The opposition used this man's faith against him, saying he could never be a good president because he would serve the pope before the country. John Kennedy, however, was a good president.

The premise behind what you're questioning, if I understand it correctly, is that Muslims hold allegiance to a Mullah over anything else. This is wrong. Christians don't follow everything a spiritual leader says, for example. Some Christians follow Pat Robertson, while others reject his teachings as false and non-biblical. This doesn't mean they're not good Christians, only that they invest their faith in God, Christ and the Word, not in any teacher. I have no reason to believe Muslims are not the same way. Let's face it, when people have power, they have a temptation to use that power to further their own goals. Some do, but we, the plebes, recognize this, and reject them. Granted, not all of us, but many do.

Geographically, all religions have some kind of holy city or land. For some, it's Rome. For others, it's Israel. For Muslims, it's Mecca. This does not mean support of their politics, though. It is just a recognition that great things happened and will happen there.

So far as American law is concerned, our laws were based on the Old Testament, of which Islam, from what I understand, accepts. Therefore, telling a Muslim not to murder is not against their faith. Living by a law system based on the Ten Commandments is not against their faith.

Socially, I know several muslims with whom I am friends. They know where I stand religiously, and I know where they stand. They're not my closest friends, as I can't talk to them deeply about a major element of my life, which is Christ, but they're still friends.

America is a melting pot. The Statue of Liberty has a plaque that reads:

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We accept everybody; everybody can be an American and still hold their beliefs.

So, can Muslims be good Americans? Only so good as you or I could be.

And for the record, the Bible does not say Christians can kill those who are not Christian.

I do not believe what I type below, and I am not religious or prejudiced against any religion. However, I type it anyway in an effort to make the point that literal, inexperienced, out of context interpretation of religious teachings can lead to gross aberrations and misunderstandings of religious beliefs, and the rules that guide those that adhere to them. I will use Christianity, having been raised as a Catholic, to illustrate the point.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Can a devout Christian be an American patriot and a loyal citizen??

Politically, NO because he/she must devote their life to Christ who preaches peace, tolerance, mercy, and forgiveness, and must love God with all their heart, all their mind, and all their soul, and in so doing, obey an apparently little observed commandment that goes "thou shalt not kill." (Maybe I missed the part where it added fine print, subchapters, paragraphs, and conditions to the observation of that rule, supposedly handed directly to Moses by God himself).

Geographically, NO, because his/her allegiance is to the Word of God, also known as scripture, which teaches that we are all a part of the universal body of Christ, irrespective of ethnicity, geographic location, or origin, provided they are Christian (which includes many Christians who have been slain in this war).

Intellectually, NO because he/she cannot accept the use of the name of the Lord their God in vain - such as when used to justify violation of God's commandments - or blasphemy, such as when men proclaim that violation of God's commandments are performed by his guidance and providence.

Socially, NO because his/her allegiance to Christianity, while permitting peaceful coexistence and fellowship with other faiths, demands of them that they preach the Word of God, and view others as gentiles, pagans, unbelievers, and thus less worthy of God's favor or entry into the Kingdom of God.

Therefore perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL CHRISTIANS in this country.
they obviously cannot be both good Christians and good Americans.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That was an extreme interpretation of an extreme interpretation. Now, here is what I believe. I myself have no clearly defined faith today, but was, as I said, raised as a Catholic. Regardless of what I believe, it is the overwhelming consensus that the constitution of the United States was founded in large part on Christian principles. If it is the argument of the person who created this thread that we are supposed to live by that credo, then we as Americans should honor, at the very least, the essence of that intention by adhering to the basic precepts inherent in Christianity. A few favorite quotes of mine follow:

Love thy neighbor as thyself.
Love your enemies.
Judge not, lest ye be judged.
Remove the pillar from thine own eye, before you remove the speck from your brother's.

If it is not their argument that we should live by that credo, then their alternative is to follow their own, less than literal interpretation of these precepts. If they can do that, then so can Muslims. If their argument has nothing to do with religion itself, but rather with the teachings of one religion and how they could relate to National Security, then all faiths should be subjected to the same scrutiny, depending on one’s interpretation. Either way, judging them as a whole cannot be justified without putting all faiths to the same test.

Muslims can and are good Americans.

Not all Muslims are evil. Not all Muslims are terrorists. I know, i have some in my family and i envy their dedication to their family, children, and their hard work.

A little strange? Only because i am not used to people praying so much, also the fact they have to wash their feet before praying is a little odd.

Other than that, exemplary.

Originally posted by dgtempe
A little strange? Only because i am not used to people praying so much, also the fact they have to wash their feet before praying is a little odd.

Simple explaination for that (the washing ritual). It's not just the feet though, it is in order, the hands, mouth (gargle), nose, face, forearms, head, ears, feet. Right first, then left, for hand, forearms and feet. This whole ritual is called wudhu' (slight nasal sound at the apostrophe)

Well anyway, the explaination is because one is about to face one's Creator, God. Obviously we want to be clean in front of the Creator. Don't they say, cleanliness is next to Godliness?

Plus, washing one's face refreshes one, wouldn't you agree? Therefore one is better able to concentrate when one prays.

Another reason for the whole ritual, is to encourage discipline and routine, that's why the order must be followed.

I know Beach, its odd because their mother and father fly a metal tub with them from Iran.

Hey, at least they are allowed. Wonder what customs thinks here.

A metal tub? For what purpose? Or is it a big metal plate for food?

They bring in to wash their feet, etc. Seriously.

But great great people. Maybe they're just attached to that metal tub.

beachcoma, i thought you were gone for good.. this thread has gone haywire i had no idea so many people were so sympathetic to the muslim cause.........

i stand corrected in many area's... but i still maintain that extremist muslims are imbedded in this country for a purpose. remember the college student SUV incident? he came out of nowhere! i'm sure he was a nice guy if you knew him personally but........

we have to look a the big picture here you cant judge a whole religion just because you happen to know a few nice ones. i'm sure the german people knewe a few nice nazi's also

what say you>>>>>>>