NEWS: Afghan Law: Reject Islam, You Die

It kinda looks like the Afgani authorities are going to commit the man to a mental hospital--at least on paper--but quietly let international humanitarian groups spirit him out of the country. That will be a shame, since his children are still in Afganistan. Besides, if the guy is as looney as is now being claimed, why did his ex-wife ever marry him and have children with him. Further, why did she bring the charges against him to begin with? There is obviously more to this story than is being let out through the media.

Probably the last thing Afghani authorities want is for the poor man to be turned into a Martyr, but if he stays in Afganistan now that is likely what is going to happen. The sad fact is, there is a fundamental conflict in the Afghani Constitution. On the one hand it guarantees freedom of religion, but on the other, the entire thing is based on Sharia Law.

[edit on 27-3-2006 by Astronomer68]

Originally posted by Astronomer68
Besides, if the guy is as looney as is now being claimed, why did his ex-wife ever marry him and have children with him. Further, why did she bring the charges against him to begin with?

Sounds like alot of marriages to me.

i have known many a woman who has asked herself that exact same question and only wished she could bring charges against the dude.

This man is being persecuted.PERIOD. Muslims are so intolerant to other religions that they "can't understand how someone can convert". Ive heard that phrase way too many times- most people if exposed to the truth instead of having a mullah control their information at the threat of beheading would easily convert from Islam. Islam has actual low conversion rates (births are counted as "conversions" for instance), not that it matters what everyone believes in ( 13 centuries ago many people believed the sun set down in India, and Muhammed wrote that down as fact in the Quran even though it is obviously false).

Nakash, so much of this kind of thing is based on sheer ignorance. I know here in the states I've met bible thumpers who will not even consider that some interpitation of the bible, other than their own, is even possible. I shudder to think how miserable such people could make life for others if they had the power.

Intolerance and blame seems to be a global problem, while no one wants to clean up the dog droppings in there own backyards.

So who's setting the example for tolerance?



[edit on 28-3-2006 by Regenmacher]

Originally posted by Nakash
This man is being persecuted.PERIOD.

Clearly.

if exposed to the truth instead of having a mullah control their information at the threat of beheading would easily convert from Islam.

That is not the case. American and western muslims don't convert to christianity en mass after comming to the west. Besides which, in egypt and other muslim countires, the mullahs and religious authorities aren't in control. Turkey, for example, is a downright secular state.

Muhammed wrote that down as fact in the Quran even though it is obviously false).

Or like how in the bible jesus went up to a tall hill and could see 'all the kingdoms of the earth', immpossible on a sphere.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by Nakash
This man is being persecuted.PERIOD.

Clearly.

if exposed to the truth instead of having a mullah control their information at the threat of beheading would easily convert from Islam.

That is not the case. American and western muslims don't convert to christianity en mass after comming to the west. Besides which, in egypt and other muslim countires, the mullahs and religious authorities aren't in control. Turkey, for example, is a downright secular state.

Muhammed wrote that down as fact in the Quran even though it is obviously false).

Or like how in the bible jesus went up to a tall hill and could see 'all the kingdoms of the earth', immpossible on a sphere.

No, muslims do not convert en masse. Why should they? Who are we to tell them to? The point is, that in mullah lead theocracies people such as this man are condemmed to ostracization if not death. This is obscene no matter how you try to spin or manipulate the cold, hard fact.

Your last paragraph and statement in such shows your ignorance of the Bible verse in Matthew 4:8 which states:

"Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; and saith unto him, all these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me." (the devil).

If people can believe they talk to aliens who give them the solutions to Mans problems, why not believe this???

This man was turned in by his family for what specific reasons we may never know. We can assume that tolerance is not a definable word in Isam unlike Christianity today as a block.

Originally posted by Regenmacher
Intolerance and blame seems to be a global problem, while no one wants to clean up the dog droppings in there own backyards.

So who's setting the example for tolerance?



I will try if you will.....maybe the word "Tolerance" needs a true definition. Maybe we need to differentiate between tolerance and discrimination. By discrimination I mean the true definition- the ability or power to see or make fine distinctions, discernment. (The American Heritage Dict. 3d edition)----- Not to allow a denial of basic rights and freedoms for all.

This is not the same as tolerance. To tolerate something or someone places an onus on the act thereof. Not a pleasant time to have to tolerate correct? Ever tolerate a kid crayoning your stairwell?? Your neighbor having orgies on his front lawn.....okay, I digress.... Should people have to tolerate some idea or act that absolutely offends them? Should we tolerate the Afghan man's abject discrimination and threat of Death because of his conversion just to "tolerate" Islam???

www.carm.org...


[edit on 29-3-2006 by Tyriffic]

Originally posted by Nakash
( 13 centuries ago many people believed the sun set down in India, and Muhammed wrote that down as fact in the Quran even though it is obviously false).

BS! Where is the proof of this? First you said Muhammad went to India (on another thread) now you say this? Oh, yes keep on making ridiculous claims why don't you.

i also support a seperation of church and state ,and if there is any one who dont just come live in my home state of utah. controled by the founding LDS church,(mormons),although it is a peacefull religion,it in many ways is vary oppressive to thoes who arent LDS.
and yes utah is in the U.S.A....

Muhammed claimed the sun set in India. Sura 18 of the Quran dealing with Zul-Kairnan :

Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.

Alexander the Great is the he. Owned. This is irrefutable proof Muhammed was a false prophet. Anybody with a brain knows he just tried to change the bible to make way for his (unworthy) self.

[edit on 29-3-2006 by Nakash]

Just seen on tonights news that the said convert is getting a house in Italy. Here is a link regarding this...

www.freerepublic.com...

Wonder how many more will convert if an house in the West is offered as a 'prize'?

Reminds me of the Afghan family who had a member shot and killed for not stopping at a check-point by Canadian troops, his family wanted either compensation or wait for it.... the whole family given homes in Canada! Unbelievable.

Originally posted by Nakash
Muhammed claimed the sun set in India. Sura 18 of the Quran dealing with Zul-Kairnan :

Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.

Alexander the Great is the he. Owned. This is irrefutable proof Muhammed was a false prophet. Anybody with a brain knows he just tried to change the bible to make way for his (unworthy) self.

Dude, where did you get the idea that Muhammad said the Sun sets in India from that Surah (passage)? This is not the irrefutable proof you speak of. You are just interpreting it as you wish.

Read it again: www.usc.edu...

018.086
YUSUFALI: Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."
PICKTHAL: Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.
SHAKIR: Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.

But don't just read that ayat (verse). Read the whole thing and stop making ridiculous claims. The bit in the passage about Alexander the Great says that he was bestowed great power. Then he followed a path/road that took him to the place where the sun sets (somewhere west). Then he took the other road and reached the place where the sun rises (somewhere east).

Anyone who has read the story of Alexander's conquest knows that after defeating Persia and conquering the Eastern Mediterranian Coast, an event which established him as a great power, he went on towards Egypt which is to the west. Then he moved on to Babylon, Persepolis and eventually India, which is in the east.

Now, even in a time when people thought the world was flat ,which was the predominant school of thought 13 centuries ago, they know the Sun rises in the east and sets in the west. So, again, you are just making things up.

You keep on spouting rhetoric that muslims are intolerant and all kinds of other babble yet you have shown yourself to be extremely intolerant of muslims to the point of making up extremely ridiculous claims that are neither factual nor logical. This whole "Muhammad claims the Sun sets in India and the proof is in the story of Alexander the Great's conquest" is the biggest of your nonesensical arguements.

Here, educate yourself on Iskandar Zul-qarnain (Alexander the Great):
Encyclopedia Birtannica - Alexander the Great: Conquest of the Mediterranean coast and Egypt
Wikipedia - Alexander the Great: Period of Conquest
Answers.com - Alexander the Great

P.S. Mods, I know this post of mine is completely off topic but I will not stand around and see false accusations from twisted logic be made of the Qur'an or Muhammad.

There are many other controversial things anyone could bring up if they want to discredit the Book (any Book for that matter), but this is the most inane angle I have ever heard of. Totally wrong and unfounded.

I should know a lot about Alexander the Great, he is my namesake.

Sun setting in a muddy lake. Boy that sounds quite scientific doesn't it? it also talks of India. The story the Sura is saying is an invented yarn Muhammed spouted of Alexander the Great going all the way to India and then threatening to kill a bunch of people he disliked. Sorry, but that's what the verse says no matter how you spin it, and I can present hundreds of other Quranic verses with bogus science. Like this one (Sura 22):

YUSUFALI: “O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes…”
PICKTHAL: “O mankind! if ye are in doubt concerning the Resurrection, then lo! We have created you from dust, then from a drop of seed, then from a clot, then from a little lump of flesh shapely and shapeless, that We may make (it) clear for you. And We cause what We will to remain in the wombs for an appointed time, and afterward We bring you forth as infants…”
SHAKIR: “O people! if you are in doubt about the raising, then surely We created you from dust, then from a small seed, then from a clot, then from a lump of flesh, complete in make and incomplete, that We may make clear to you; and We cause what We please to stay in the wombs till an appointed time, then We bring you forth as babies…”

1) The embryo spends 40 days as a drop of sperm or seed.
2) The embryo then spends another 40 days as a “clot” or a “leech-like clot” of blood.
3) The embryo the spends another 40 days as a “lump of flesh.”
4) At that point bones form.
5) Then the bones are “clothed with flesh.”
6) And finally, the gender of the child is assigned by an angel at Allah’s direction.

taken from

www.mukto-mona.com...

additional hadiths (the quotation above is Quranic) claiming this also in that link. That is FALSE embryology.




Anybody interested in taking apart the Quran Sura by Sura for the false science and prophecy which it is can go here:

www.islamcomicbook.com...


Here is an alternative translation of the sun in lake quote just to cement how this clearly talks about the sun setting in a lake in India:

"Until when he reached THE PLACE WHERE THE SUN SET, he found IT GOING DOWN INTO a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit… Until when he reached the land of the rising of the sun, he found IT RISING on a people to whom We had given no shelter from It" Surah 18:86, 90 Shakir

[edit on 30-3-2006 by Nakash]

Nakash, you've totaly missed the whole point of the Surahs. The one about Alexander is a rather accurate account of his travels. Are you disputing the fact that Alexander the Great reached India? And the whole point of that part of the passage is to convey the message that God will reward the just ruler, not that Alexander went on a rampage. Again, you are only selectively picking out the parts you want.

And the one about a human being's development in the womb is a just a depiction of how the fetus develops from the start of cell division to the development of bones and limbs for the benefit of people of that age. If you want to take everything in the Holy Books literally then you are far more ignorant than I suspected.

What did you expect? A thoroughly scientific treatise describing gammetes, zygots and cell mitosis? This was 13 centuries ago for crying out loud.

Things had to be explained metaphorically to the masses. The Bible speaks of God creating Eve from Adam's rib bone. Is this scientific? No. Is it metaphorical? Most probably (a metaphor of what I leave it to your translation).

One last thing before I discontinue this futile and thoroughly off-topic arguement with you. If you want to, you can pick apart any Holy book. The Taurat (Torah), the Injil (Bible) or the Qur'an (Koran). A literal translation where it's supposed to be taken metaphorically, selectively taking verses out of the context of the passage, taking the stories out of the context of the time it was revealed, you name it. But doing so misses the whole point of the lessons to be learnt from the Book.

Excellent response beachcoma.

Reasonable, informed, illuminating.

Thank you.

HAH! Don't spin this Beach, I never disputed the fact that Alexander the great went to India in his conquests, I *am* disputing the fact that the sun set's in a huge mud lake in India as the verse clearly says. I am also disputing the bizzare embyrology theory Muhammed gave in that other Sura (and we can dispute the science here all day on that one by the way since I'm a med student). Oh, sofi- there's nothing "enlightening" about spinning the clear facts to be PC, the verse says what it says, it was a common belief in Muhammed's time that the sun set in the east (this due to as you travel in that direction the angle decreases) and he put that as fact in the Quran even though it is clearly false. If you ignored Beach and clicked the link you would see that the Hadiths also took Muhammed's theory of infant development literaly (as it was supposed to be interpreted) no symbolisms there, just flawed science.

Here's a good summary of Quranic Genetics and embryology absurdities and their refutations (as well as refutations to counter arguments from Islamic apologists):

www.answering-islam.org...

I want everybody to read that link so that Islamic apology can be properly refuted. No Tariqya on this thread while I'm around.

[edit on 31-3-2006 by Nakash]

Originally posted by Nakash
HAH! Don't spin this Beach, I never disputed the fact that Alexander the great went to India in his conquests, I *am* disputing the fact that the sun set's in a huge mud lake in India as the verse clearly says.[...] it was a common belief in Muhammed's time that the sun set in the east (this due to as you travel in that direction the angle decreases) and he put that as fact in the Quran even though it is clearly false.

It's like I'm talking to a wall here. I will explain it one last time mods, I promise. After if Nakash wishes to continue to selectively read my posts, there is no more that I can do, therefore I won't pursue it.

The part of the passage, step by step to the relevant point - Pickthall since Nakash seems to prefer that translation:

018.083
PICKTHAL: They will ask thee of Dhu'l-Qarneyn. Say: I shall recite unto you a remembrance of him.

018.084
PICKTHAL: Lo! We made him strong in the land and gave him unto every thing a road.

018.085
PICKTHAL: And he followed a road

018.086
PICKTHAL: Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.

018.087
PICKTHAL: He said: As for him who doeth wrong, we shall punish him, and then he will be brought back unto his Lord, Who will punish him with awful punishment!

018.088
PICKTHAL: But as for him who believeth and doeth right, good will be his reward, and We shall speak unto him a mild command.

018.089
PICKTHAL: Then he followed a road

018.090
PICKTHAL: Till, when he reached the rising-place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter therefrom.

So in summary, it was towards the west first. Then towards the east.

Now I'm pretty sure India is towards the east, so claiming that the book says that the Sun sets in India is just making things up. It's all laid out there. I didn't spin anything. If you want to continue believing that that's your choice.

Muddy spring, black sea, murky water -- no mater which translation you choose the literal translation is still kinda vague. I suppose you could say the Sun set beyond a large body of murky water. To someone from the 7th century it would appear like the sun is setting into the body of water. Are you saying that people of that era knew that the Sun isn't setting into a body of water/ a mountain/ beyond the plains to the west?

At any rate, I'm still baffled where you got "the Sun sets in a lake in India". And I am even more baffled at how you figured people from Muhammad's time believed that the Sun sets in the east.

Your whole argument is bizzare. First you expect people of that time to be knowledgable enough to realize the world is round therefore the sun couldn't set into any geographical feature -- lakes, seas, mountains... whatever. And then you assert that they believed the Sun sets in the east, which even with their limited knowledge of the world around them could not possibly be true.

So I'm the one spinning things?

As for your other point, I have already given my answer in the previous post. I do not wish to go in circles like I mistakenly did with another similiarly beligerent member in another thread. I have laid out my answers, reasoning and facts for anyone to scrutinize. As far as I'm concerned, my posts so far has been rational and reasonable.

Either accept what I have to say or not, either way it doesn't matter to me.

P.S - Sofi, thank you for the vote of confidence. Comments like that really brighten my day and gives me the belief that my efforts are not falling on deaf ears (or selectively blind eyes in this case )

P.P.S - I am not an unreasonable person, if I am shown logically and reasonably to be wrong, I will admit it and move on. Especially on the internet where there is no shame in admitting a mistake. If anyone argues with me using twisted logic or obfuscation, don't expect me to have any respect for you, particularly if you keep on repeating the same old tired twisted logic after being explained of it time and again.

We have a word in Malay for that, bodoh-sombong. A compound of two words meaning 'stupid' and 'proud' respectively. In English bodoh-sombong is translated to 'arrogant'. Don't confuse arrogance with pride.

P.P.P.S - I'm gonna inject something on topic in the hopes that this thread will get back on track. Sharia law for apostasy where the penalty is death -- I think this a stupid law that probably resulted from gross misinterpretation of the Qur'an and Hadith.

I have read books of the tales of the Prophet and the Sahabah (companions) and there were mentions of people who became apostates. But as far as I can recall the Prophet didn't ask that they be executed. So I am not sure where and when the death penalty for this came about.

A limited form of Sharia is practiced here in Malaysia, but it applies only to muslims. For the record, we have muslims who became apostates. They Converted to Christianity, Buddhism and Hindu. But nobody has been killed thus far, so to whoever posted a while back that this is the case for all muslims countries, better get your facts straight.

Great Beach, but the verse still says the sun set in a lake, whether it was in India or Pakistan is pure finesse, it is definite proof Muhammed was a liar. You also completely ignored the huge discussion on Quranic embryology I linked to, which just shows your attempting to deflect the issue to something else.


There is no "misinterpretation" on Sharia law. Once again I am forced to turn to what Muslims practice and believe in rather than what they claim to. Here is our guide to eternal peace and prosperous co-existence, our highest standard:

Qur’an:9:88
“The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah’s Cause.”

Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Qur’an:9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”

Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”

Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”

Qur’an:9:14 “Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.”

Qur’an:8:65 “O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.”

Qur’an:9:38 “Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.”

Qur’an:9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”

Qur’an:8:72 “Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave (them) asylum, aid, and shelter, those who harbored them—these are allies of one another. You are not responsible for protecting those who embraced Islam but did not leave their homes [to fight] until they do so.” [Another translation reads:] “You are only called to protect Muslims who fight.”

Qur’an:8:73 “The unbelieving infidels are allies. Unless you (Muslims) aid each other (fighting as one united block to make Allah’s religion victorious), there will be confusion and mischief. Those who accepted Islam, left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause (al-Jihad), as well as those who give them asylum, shelter, and aid—these are (all) Believers: for them is pardon and bountiful provision (in Paradise).”

Qur’an:48:16 “Say (Muhammad) to the wandering desert Arabs who lagged behind: ‘You shall be invited to fight against a people given to war with mighty prowess. You shall fight them until they surrender and submit. If you obey, Allah will grant you a reward, but if you turn back, as you did before, He will punish you with a grievous torture.” Qur’an:48:22 “If the unbelieving infidels fight against you, they will retreat. (Such has been) the practice (approved) of Allah in the past: no change will you find in the ways of Allah.”

Qur’an:47:4 “When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”

Qur’an:47:31 “And We shall try you until We know those among you who are the fighters.” Qur’an:9:19 “Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Mosque, equal to those who fight in the Cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. Those who believe, and left their homes, striving with might, fighting in Allah’s Cause with their goods and their lives, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah.”

Qur’an:5:94 “Believers, Allah will make a test for you in the form of a little game in which you reach out for your lances. Any who fails this test will have a grievous punishment.”

How truly enlightening no ? The Imam told me the Quran doesn't preach blood to infidels and that the sun doesn't set in a huge mud lake (it's all a "Zionist lie" yesireee, oh yeah...), I guess I will have to take his word lest I offend somebody.Then again that's dishonest and far from the truth.....

[edit on 31-3-2006 by Nakash]

Originally posted by Tyriffic
shows your ignorance of the Bible

Umm, the section you quoted states that jesus went up a hill that was so tall that he was able to see all the kingdoms of the earth, which, again, for review, is immpossible on a sphere. It states exactly what I said it states, thats not 'ignorance', thats accuracy.

Should people have to tolerate some idea or act that absolutely offends them? Should we tolerate the Afghan man's abject discrimination and threat of Death because of his conversion just to "tolerate" Islam???

For what its worth, that is the exact argument made by the peopel persecuting this guy. He commited an interolerable act, an offense, in their eyes, against god, and,in deed, in their eyes, an attack upon islam. How would and do most christians react to percevied attacks upon their religion? They seek retribution in the courts, want laws passed establishing their religion, and request special treatment.
Truth is, no religious opinion should be special treatment, or even be considered worthy of real world consideration, religious opinions are just a subset of other irrational opinions, they shouldn't get special consideration or treatment.
I don't defend what the muslims in afghanistan did to this guy, I was one of the people calling for outside action against it, but I am also able to see that what they are doing isn't specific to their religion, nor caused by it. IN europe, with different social conditions, the same thing happened. In the middle east, with different social conditions, religious minorities were protected. See, if has nothing to do with the religion of hte people involved,religion is just used as an excuse and a justification, and has no real influence on the matter.

This is irrefutable proof Muhammed was a false prophet

There is no such thing as proof wrt religion, its all beleif. Jesus went up a mountain and could see everything on earth? Immpossible, but so what? What does it matter that there is a story in the koran about what happened with alexander the great? There are lots of immpossible folkstories in the koran, I am sure, as there are in the bible, and talmud, and torah, and any other holy book