Over Three Hundred Disproofs of God�s Existence

Originally posted by Toltec
Satyr the name of the Forum is Religion and Spiritualism, again would ask if there is something wrong with you???

By the way perhaps if would be best if you did leave especially if you can not discuss without engaging in personal attacks.

There you go, Toltec. mOjOm understands! You just don't get it, do you? Prayer is a personal attack to a non-believer! It also shows how brainwashed the person is, and tends to annoy the hell out of people who think it's the dumbest thing they've ever heard of in the first place. I get pissed off when some asshole calls me weak, only because I don't need their version of "god". Xian logic is the equivalent to healing those who proclaim to have no ailments. You'll never understand, I guess.

[Edited on 9-10-2003 by Toltec]

Why are you editing my post now?

[Edited on 10-9-2003 by Satyr]

[Edited on 9-10-2003 by Toltec]

Satyr if I really did not understand my response would have included much more than an edit to your recent post

All I am asking you to do is to chill out, we are just talking here, no reason to get upset. Again as stated in another post this is not congress.

Hmmmm. I paid for non-censorship, yet my post is edited when I use that privilege? I thought filters were in place for those who are offended? Only those who paid for non-censorship should be able to see any profanity, correct?

[Edited on 10-9-2003 by Satyr]

I stand corrected Satyr

Ultimately I am just curious as to who can offer proof
to a subject based on faith. Which in and of itself is only
an existential belief format by its very design: Faith.

Whether you are atheist, christian, jewish, muslim, buddhist or
whatever, the fact remains: SUBJECTS OF FAITH ARE NOT OPEN
TO SOLUTION.

I challenge anyone to tell me rationally, how anyone can find
a logical solution that will end the concept of faith!

Satyr, I am quite intrigued by a certain aspect of your behaviour, and it would be nice if you could clarify that a bit.

I am a religious person. I truly believe in God. You could write 1000s of books disproving the existence of God, it wouldnt change much, I would still be a believer. I am not in any way bothered by atheists. I love to discuss religious matters with them, but they never piss me off. It is because of the strength of my faith, I know nothing can change that.

On the other hand, you get really angry when, in your opinion, weak or delusional person "prays" for you. Why does it matter? Why does a strong believer provoke such strong emotions of denial in you? I mean, logicaly you shouldnt be bothered what he/she says, to you God doesnt exist, so praying wont have any effect.

Can it be that your atheism is not that strong, and a believer reminds you of a deep hidden part of you, that you tried so hard to get rid of, but it just wont go away?

In case I am wrong, please do say so.

Originally posted by paperclip
Satyr, I am quite intrigued by a certain aspect of your behaviour, and it would be nice if you could clarify that a bit.

I am a religious person. I truly believe in God. You could write 1000s of books disproving the existence of God, it wouldnt change much, I would still be a believer. I am not in any way bothered by atheists. I love to discuss religious matters with them, but they never piss me off. It is because of the strength of my faith, I know nothing can change that.

On the other hand, you get really angry when, in your opinion, weak or delusional person "prays" for you. Why does it matter? Why does a strong believer provoke such strong emotions of denial in you? I mean, logicaly you shouldnt be bothered what he/she says, to you God doesnt exist, so praying wont have any effect.

Can it be that your atheism is not that strong, and a believer reminds you of a deep hidden part of you, that you tried so hard to get rid of, but it just wont go away?

In case I am wrong, please do say so.

I wouldn't speak on Satyr's behalf since I don't have authority to do so. In regards to your question though I'm sure under other situations Debate on this topic in a friendly way is not uncommon to Satyr. Sometimes however I think people feel a constant pressure to believe in some way as others do and at those times strike back for some amount of peace. If someone was telling you they were sorry that you were delusional and they would Chant a Pagan spell to aid in you seeing the truth, at some point you might also just want them to shut the hell up and leave ya alone. Does that make sense?? I admit that I on occasion get somewhat intollerant of Mormons or Christians or Hari-Chrishna's(sp?) coming to my door attempting to save my sould and join in with their clan. Not always, but sometimes......I don't go to their house or their place of worship making the assumption that they need my help, but I'm certainly here if they come to me asking for it.

i respect anybodys right to have a belief.....

but i dont have to respect that belief...

i would imagine other non religious members of the board feel this way...

its not worth arguing about... you are never going to convince us to belive in god/a god...

and we are probably never going to be able to convince you that god doesnt exsist...

the only way any adult with fixed relligious views will change them is is something happens... that makes them lose the faith or gain the faith......

now im not saying non belivers are right... but your garentied all of us are not right... so some of us are wasting our time...

can you live with being wrong... i know i can...

Hehe, I appreciate the satire...but rather than attack with logic, I prefer to simply point out how it often contradicts itself,

The Internet is an incredible devise; literally about a billion people can access this address if they so wished and if the site could handle it.

My point is sometimes people are overcome with the
issue of that fact.

We all have opinions (am sure all concerned know the joke about that) and it is important to keep in mind that each of us has a right to express that opinion. Without having to worry about the next guy or gal calling us ignorant or something worst.

Every time I look at the main screen and see how many people is lurking. I wonder how many of them do so because they feel if they became members and posted there thoughts, someone here would get offensive

My goal with Religion and Spiritualism has been primarily to allow the forum to present that this is not the case. That despite the topic in general being controversial our tolerance bespeaks of humanity in general, not any particular belief.

I know some can view this standard as lofty and even perhaps unrealistic, but it is a goal that is honorable and based upon love.

Right about now Jagd is thinking "What about my topic?" And he is correct. As a result in respect to this post, would ask that all concerned return to the topic in question.

---------------------------------

Jagd it�s obvious you feel that Religion has all the answers but it is also obvious that not everyone agrees the attached site is but one example of such conclusions...


www.skepticsannotatedbible.com...

[Edited on 9-10-2003 by Toltec]

In Satyrs defense (now I'm asking for it)

I do not think it is the praying for one who does not believe in the Christian God that irritates non-believers. It is the reasoning behind the prayer.

I am not a believer in the Christian God. I have beliefs, and I have faith, but not where anyone in my family puts them. My parents as grandparents and wife are all Christian. The part the irritates me when they "pray" for me, is that they are praying for me to find the Christian God.

To me, this is belittling, and honestly, hurtful. It comes through to me as someone telling me that what I think is wrong. That because I do not worship their god, I am inferior to them. This is coming from family mind you. When it is from non family, it is worse.

If I wanted the Christian God to find me, I would pray to it. But I don't. I am happy with my path, and I am a very spiritual person without being Christian.

I think what many people overlook when they push religions on to others, is what happened with the Native Americans. We came here from Britain, and PUSHED Christianity on them, and PUSHED therm from their land. We killed MANY over land and religion. THEY were here FIRST. All the while, one of the big things that brought people from Britain to America, was freedom from religious persecution. And what are we doing still??? Persecuting those that do not have the same religious beliefs as us.

I do not push my faith on others, yet I am constanly being asked why I am Pagan. Why don't I believe in the Christian God? Why won't I go to church with my family? And why do I worship the devil?

NEWS FLASH: The devil is a Christian/Catholic entity. There is no devil in my faith.

This is a Christians cop out to make me look inferior to them.

Now that I have rambled long enough, I do not agree with Satyr's way of conveying his feelings, but I do defend him and see where he is coming from.

Every time I look at the main screen and see how many people is lurking. I wonder how many of them do so because they feel if they became members and posted there thoughts, someone here would get offensive

That's an interesting question.... I actually asked my fiance' why she hasn't come on to the board (even though she has an account, and is interested in this stuff), and mostly, she feels she doesn't know enough about the various subjects to do so... Don't get me wrong, she's incredibly intelligent (moreso than myself I'd wager, and though not Einstein, I'm not an idiot (imho) either ), but just not as knowledgable in those fields.

I asked her, what should that matter, and she just feels she'd be eaten alive if she tried to post. Made me really curious as to why people feel that way.... Are we really that bad? Kind of shocked me really... But I always try to be receptive to newer members and I've seen others do it too, so I was surprised to hear it.... If only so much wasn't lost with word only communication....

Originally posted by ImAlreadyPsycho
The part the irritates me when they "pray" for me, is that they are praying for me to find the Christian God.

To me, this is belittling, and honestly, hurtful. It comes through to me as someone telling me that what I think is wrong. That because I do not worship their god, I am inferior to them.

I couldn't agree with you more. A woman once repeatedly told me that she "would pray for me". I replied with, "To hell with your christian insults". Though this may not be the case everytime, I was convinced she was belittling me.

@mOjOm and ImAlreadyPsycho: thank you for posting that. It does clarify some things I have been wondering about.

It is just that Satyr has stated a few times that all those who believe in God are foolish, obviously a very simplified generalisation. There are those who believe for themselves and do not force their belief upon others. I'd like to point out here that stating and discussing your beliefs does not qualify as "forcing" your belief on others. Thats different.
If I say that I believe in God, I am not in any way forcing you to believe the same nor am I in any way implying that you are inferior because you don't believe.
If, however, I say " you poor soul, you dont know what you're doing, you are foolish and closeminded, open your heart to Lord", that would be insulting.
But same goes for the other side. If an atheist says "oh you foolish blind believer, stop worshiping a fairy tale", that is also insulting to those who believe.

Very true paperclip.

This to me is an open discussion. I generally stray from theological topics as they tend to get heated from one side to the other.

As you say, one professing their belief is not insulting or degrading to the other side. I do however feel when someone "prays i will find my way" that they are pushing the envelope. I have found my path, and just because it is not their path, does not mean it is the wrong path.

And the thing is, I really do not care what anyone believes in or does not believe in. I am of the nature that, as long as you believe in something, that is what matters. I even feel that athiests believe something. They believe in the lack of a higher being/beings or spiritual entity. So to me, that is a true religion.

All told, I do not think religion of any kind matters, but it helps us grow individually. Spiritually. I feel religion is probably not even necessary, but, it does help us find our place in the world.

I am happy for those who find faith in Christ. Just as I am happy for those who find faith in Buddism, Taoism, Confucism, Sihkism, Wicca, or nothing at all. (not to leave any out on purpose or spell them wrong, just to make my point).

These are the ones that have found faith in something or the lack of something. These are the ones that have a faith and believe in something, if even only themselves.

Originally posted by paperclip
On the other hand, you get really angry when, in your opinion, weak or delusional person "prays" for you. Why does it matter? Why does a strong believer provoke such strong emotions of denial in you? I mean, logicaly you shouldn't be bothered what he/she says, to you God doesn't exist, so praying wont have any effect.

Sure. If I called you weak, and I pitied you for believing what you believe, that wouldn't anger you a bit? I can't stand pity! Why? Because I have no need for it. I'm a strong person. It's not just xians that piss me off in this manner. Anyone who pities me will get the same reaction.

Can it be that your atheism is not that strong, and a believer reminds you of a deep hidden part of you, that you tried so hard to get rid of, but it just wont go away?

First, I'm not atheist. I'm agnostic. And no, it doesn't remind me of anything. It's an implication that I am the weak one here, or that I must be like you to find happiness, which is completely wrong. I've proven myself to be stronger than almost any xian. I've seen many a xian panic, while I stood cool and calm. I've seen many xians break down and cry, while I stood strong. Weak? I don't need anyone to run to when life gets too difficult for me. Why, you may ask? Because my life has been 50 times worse in the past. Guess what! I made it through that without "god", and I'll make it through the rest of my life without "god". Once again, I say. Pray for yourselves. You need it much more than I.

I do not think it is the praying for one who does not believe in the Christian God that irritates non-believers. It is the reasoning behind the prayer.

EXACTLY!!!

I don't even claim that there can't be a god. I only claim that there can't be just one creator of everything in existence. If you believe in creationism, you can't believe anything was just "always there". That type of thinking is (to quote Spock) highly illogical.


[Edited on 10-9-2003 by Satyr]

Originally posted by paperclip
It is just that Satyr has stated a few times that all those who believe in God are foolish, obviously a very simplified generalisation.

If this is what I said, I apologize. What I meant to say was, people who believe in anything without reason and/or much logical research are fools. I may have implied that people who believe in god are fools. It's tough for believers or nonbelievers not to do this. We each think the other is a fool, don't we? Isn't that the truth? Isn't that why they offer to pray for me?

I would like to point out that there is no compulsion for anyone to read or post in this part of the forum. NO ONE is compelled to read anything on this board. Heretofore, I have tried to be respectful in the presentation of my beliefs and in the refutations of various skeptic arguments which are based on nothing more than bad scholarship. Yet in response all we have seen from certain people is nothing but insults and I have yet to see a reasoned argrument from them. If you don't like what I have posted here - get over it. You really think it is nice and great when someone posts an article which puts Christianity in a bad light. You cry with howls of rage when someone defends the Faith. How hypocritical these people are.

Originally posted by Satyr

If this is what I said, I apologize. What I meant to say was, people who believe in anything without reason and/or much logical research are fools. I may have implied that people who believe in god are fools. It's tough for believers or nonbelievers not to do this. We each think the other is a fool, don't we? Isn't that the truth? Isn't that why they offer to pray for me?

You are generalising again. Not all religious people are the same. How many christians do you really know in real life?20?30?50? out of one billion. Not to mention other 3-4 billion religious people of other religions.
I don't think that you are a fool. To each his own. If you chose not to believe, thats your choice.

You say christians are weak, but you are strong. For every christian you say its weak, I can name one atheist or agnostic who is weak too and one religious person who is very strong. It has very little to do with whether you are religious or not. I have survived a war, a genocide, and I am still sane and I do have a normal life now. I am certainly not weak, yet I do believe in God.
Weakness has more to do with complex human nature, what has made us who we are? what is our past?

Quoted from the URL link:
TRANSCENDENTAL ARGUMENT
God doesn�t exist.
If God doesn�t exist, then if reason exists, then God doesn�t exist.
Reason exists.
Therefore, God doesn�t exist.

They say that reason & faith cannot coexist; I see examples of faith & reason coexisting every day of my life.

Every one of the arguements I've seen there have absolutely no basis in reason...Therefore, by their own "reasoning", reason doesn't exist & therefore God does.