21 year old GI killed in Masonic mystery

Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23

Originally posted by BassClef
It's not against the law, if that's what you mean

No I mean personally, do you believe “conjuring elements” can affect you and me?
And are you sure ALL masons conjure elements?

A large number of masons, as you well know are only belly Masons, the type that are just in it for the dinners and the secret handshakes. But through studying the meanings of the symbols and practises of the Craft, this is where conjuring up "spirits of the elements" can come into play.

The term "conjuring up spirits" means calling up spirits with aim usually of trying to control them, to harness some of their powers. Who knows but these powers may even give political advantages. It seems a lot of Masons had great success in politics and the effects of Freemasonry are assembled all over and around the world's political power centres, Like London, Washington DC, etc, like bees around a honey pot. Somehow, this all reminds me of Faust who sold his soul to the devil for worldly fame and success!

Originally posted by BassClef

The term "conjuring up spirits" means calling up spirits with aim usually of trying to control them, to harness some of their powers.

Dude, this is the 21st century. We no longer live in the dark ages where rational people believe in "conjuring demons", or a flat earth, or that the best medicine for the flu is a good bleeding.

If you want to base your worldview on outdated superstitions and fairy tales, go right ahead. But please spare us the absurdity of trying to tell folks that we Masons believe in such nonsense.

[edit on 13-3-2006 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by BassClef
It seems a lot of Masons had great success in politics and the effects of Freemasonry are assembled all over and around the world's political power centres, Like London, Washington DC, etc, like bees around a honey pot. Somehow, this all reminds me of Faust who sold his soul to the devil for worldly fame and success!

Please identify the Freemasons who are currently in high level U.S. Government positions (elected or appointed). Please identify any past administrations with Freemasons within it's ranks (once again, elected or appointed). Judges and Congress are fair game as well.

I await this list of "success."

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by BassClef

The term "conjuring up spirits" means calling up spirits with aim usually of trying to control them, to harness some of their powers.

Dude, this is the 21st century. We no longer live in the dark ages where rational people believe in "conjuring demons"...

Hmmmm... it's interesting to know that some of your brightest lights in Freemasonry were living in the dark ages!

Originally posted by Masonic Light
If you want to base your worldview on outdated superstitions and fairy tales, go right ahead. But please spare us the absurdity of trying to tell folks that we Masons believe in such nonsense.

My understanding is based, not on "outdated superstitions and fairy tales", but on what most esteemed Brothers have written!

And please recall, I've already agreed some Masons are belly Masons with no interest in the dark side, so there's no need to put words in my mouth to say all Masons believe in these dark practises, as written about by Masonic philosophers.

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
Please identify the Freemasons who are currently in high level U.S. Government positions (elected or appointed).

Why is it necessary to do that? What I waned to establish was that the effects of Freemasonry are more noticeable in the power centres of the world, like London and Washington DC. You either agree with that or not. Freemasonry and political power go together like a hand in a glove - it's self evident.

Freemasonry is declining because it's taking a back seat role. Other agencies have matured and now carry the torch, like Skull and Bones, for example.

Originally posted by BassClef
Why is it necessary to do that? What I waned to establish was that the effects of Freemasonry are more noticeable in the power centres of the world, like London and Washington DC. You either agree with that or not.

You made a specific claim (and reiterated it in the above quote), so it should be easy to substantiate. Right? You should be able to pull a list of names right out of... Where you're talking? Why the reluctance?

Because there isn't a long list of Freemasons involved in government?

Roll Call Monkeys, not just for saying "here" anymore...

Originally posted by BassClef
but on what most esteemed Brothers have written!

Let me guess, you’ve got some JUICY Pike quotes for us?

[
And please recall, I've already agreed some Masons are belly Masons with no interest in the dark side,

Then why do you insist on using the Mason label at all?

Why not Jews, Russians, Canadian, Anthropologists, vegetarians?

Are you familiar with the logical fallacy, of Hasty Generalization?

This when you form a general rule by examining only a few specific cases which aren't representative of all possible cases. Your argument is a fine example of such a fallacy.

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
You made a specific claim (and reiterated it in the above quote), so it should be easy to substantiate. Right?

I'm talking about the effects of Freemasonry. In English, effects means articles and by articles, I mean the symbolism that can be seen around these power centres. Please read more closely what I've written.

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
Because there isn't a long list of Freemasons involved in government?

There isn't a long list today because Freemasonry has been shunted to the side. Freemasonry has given way to make way for other agencies to become prominent, like Skull and Bones, for example.

[edit on 13-3-2006 by BassClef]

Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
Let me guess, you’ve got some JUICY Pike quotes for us?

I didn't have Pike in mind but seeing as you brought him up, we may as well look at this quote:

"Whoever shall learn to comprehend and execute this great work, will know great things, say the sages of the work; but whenever you depart from the centre of the Square and the Compass you will no longer be able to work with success. Another Jewel is necessary for you, and in certain undertakings cannot be dispensed with. It is what is termed the Kabalistic pantacle... This carries with it the power of commanding the spirits of the elements." (Albert Pike, "Morals and Dogma", pp.786-87)

[edit on 13-3-2006 by BassClef]

Originally posted by BassClef

My understanding is based, not on "outdated superstitions and fairy tales", but on what most esteemed Brothers have written!

Pike, who is quoting from a ritual, NEVER said he believed in "conjuring demons". He was far too intelligent for such foolishness.

The Elements, however, are a different story. They're obviously real, as our own bodies are composed of them. Pike speaks here of the Grand Arcanum, not the superstitions of the middle ages.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Pike, who is quoting from a ritual, NEVER said he believed in "conjuring demons". He was far too intelligent for such foolishness.

The Elements, however, are a different story. They're obviously real, as our own bodies are composed of them. Pike speaks here of the Grand Arcanum, not the superstitions of the middle ages.

And he significantly never said he didn't believe in it either and one would have thought he would have commented in the negative because the quote talks about two Masonic symbols, the Square and the Compass, but he doesn't say he doesn't believe in conjuring the spirits.

The object of the emphasis, in the term "spirits of the elements", is on the word spirit and judging by the words of the Grand Arcanum, these spirits are real, otherwise, what would be the point in conjuring up and "commanding" them?

[edit on 13-3-2006 by BassClef]

I take it you’re a Christian BassClef, so let me ask you this:
When you are praying, aren’t you conjuring up the Holy Spirit?

Isn’t that cross around your neck (or someone you know) a Talisman that protects you?


[edit on 13/3/06 by ConspiracyNut23]

Originally posted by BassClef
but it's important for ordinary people in the street to understand what Freemasonry is about!

Go out on the street, grab someone and tell them that Freemasonry makes ample use of the kabbala. If it weren't for madonna, they wouldn't even know what 'the kabbala' was.

Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
I take it you’re a Christian BassClef, so let me ask you this:
When you are praying, aren’t you conjuring up the Holy Spirit?

Isn’t that cross around your neck (or someone you know) a Talisman that protects you?


[edit on 13/3/06 by ConspiracyNut23]

No, I'm not a Christian. I don't belong to any relgion.

Freemasonry has more in common with Churchianity!

[edit on 13-3-2006 by BassClef]

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by BassClef
but it's important for ordinary people in the street to understand what Freemasonry is about!

Go out on the street, grab someone and tell them that Freemasonry makes ample use of the kabbala. If it weren't for madonna, they wouldn't even know what 'the kabbala' was.

As I said to Damoclese357, I think more people care than you think. What about all those 10's of thousands of Christians that know very well what the occult is - all those Christians who've been told Freemasonry has nothing to do with the occult? Knowing this information would mean they'd be better informed if they ever wondered about joining with the Craft. In times when Freemasonry enjoyed less light coming in from the outside, I'm sure a lot of Christians might have had second thoughts, before getting involved in occult practises, etc.

Originally posted by BassClef
It seems a lot of Masons had great success in politics

Who are they?

You've made a definitive assertion, please provide who these successful politicians are.

Originally posted by BassClef
I didn't have Pike in mind but seeing as you brought him up, we may as well look at this quote:

"Whoever shall learn to comprehend *SNIP*

You mean the one you got from this website:

home.earthlink.net...

Just for some perspective.

Originally posted by Mirthful Me

Originally posted by BassClef
It seems a lot of Masons had great success in politics

Who are they?

You've made a definitive assertion, please provide who these successful politicians are.

If you're trying to suggest only half a dozen Masons or so were succesful in politics, I think you're going to be disappointed. I'm not even saying the majority of people in big politics are Masons but that's why I mentioned this in conjunction with the Masonic effects that can be found, liberally sprinkled, in important centres of political power, or royalty...

Originally posted by BassClef

And he significantly never said he didn't believe in it either and one would have thought he would have commented in the negative because the quote talks about two Masonic symbols, the Square and the Compass, but he doesn't say he doesn't believe in conjuring the spirits.

Why would Pike want to go out of his way to say he didn't believe in demons or conjuring them? Surely he assumed that none of his readers would believe in such stuff. Pike was attempting to write a serious philosophical work on the history and evolution of morals and dogma throughout the various religions and philosophies of the world. He purpose was not to spend time arguing over superstition.

The object of the emphasis, in the term "spirits of the elements", is on the word spirit and judging by the words of the Grand Arcanum, these spirits are real, otherwise, what would be the point in conjuring up and "commanding" them?

This is actually a completely different question. When an Adept uses the word "Spirit" in an occult book, he isn't talking about disembodied ghosts. He's talking about what Plato called the Quintessence, or Fifth Element, symbolically alluded to in the Pentagram.

The "Spirits of the Elements" are the natural forces that manifest as physical universe. Occult Science teaches that inner knowledge of Nature can be found by intuitively aligning one's consciousness to these vibrational patterns, and that the easiest method to do this is through symbolic imagery.

To make a final statement on demonic conjuration, I can do no better but to mention the English magician and occult author Aleister Crowley. As a beginning magician, he attempted to evoke several Goetic demons, with partial success. This eventually led him to the conclusion, shared by practically all other modern occultists, that "demon evocation" is simply a form of psychoanalysis.

The magician will examine himself, and find some bad trait or habit he wishes to rid himself of. He then personifies the habit or trait, imagining it having a demonic and beastly appearance. He then performs a ceremony of ritual magic where he objectifies the "demon", projecting it out from himself, then performs a ritual banishing to get rid of it forever. This simple procedure is the basis for all the crazy stories and superstitions regarding demon conjuring.

Obviously, as Crowley pointed, the demon has no objective reality. The negative force in our own psyche is simply imagined as a demon for convenience. Crowley also rightly pointed out that all the so-called "demons" listed in the old grimoires were simply the gods of the pre-Christians, and were hardly demonic.

Crowley also stated, and I agree, that this form of demonic evocation is suitable only for beginners anyway. Advanced students may rid themselves of negative emotions, traits, and habits through concentrated will-power, without having to formalize it into an actual physical ceremony, as I've spoken about above.



[edit on 13-3-2006 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by Mirthful Me

Originally posted by BassClef
I didn't have Pike in mind but seeing as you brought him up, we may as well look at this quote:

"Whoever shall learn to comprehend *SNIP*

You mean the one you got from this website:

home.earthlink.net...

Just for some perspective.

No, the quote was from Pike's own writings...