21 year old GI killed in Masonic mystery

Originally posted by Masonic Light
The "Spirits of the Elements" are the natural forces that manifest as physical universe. Occult Science teaches that inner knowledge of Nature can be found by intuitively aligning one's consciousness to these vibrational patterns, and that the easiest method to do this is through symbolic imagery.

Arthur Edward Waite, would have disagreed with you!

[edit on 13-3-2006 by BassClef]

Originally posted by BassClef
If you're trying to suggest only half a dozen Masons or so were succesful in politics, I think you're going to be disappointed.

I'm sitting down, please "disappoint me." You have dodged supporting your initial claim for an entire thread page, just copy and paste the list (from whatever your source is) for everyone to see. It should have only taken one reply, yet here we are... Sans list. Why?

Originally posted by Mirthful Me

Originally posted by BassClef
If you're trying to suggest only half a dozen Masons or so were succesful in politics, I think you're going to be disappointed.

I'm sitting down, please "disappoint me." You have dodged supporting your initial claim for an entire thread page, just copy and paste the list (from whatever your source is) for everyone to see. It should have only taken one reply, yet here we are... Sans list. Why?

So are you saying there only half a dozen or so successful Freemasons in politics? Please answer the question.

Originally posted by BassClef

Arthur Edward Waite, would have disagreed with you!

lol, Waite disagreed with a lot of things. I'm not a fan of his, and I don't know many other modern students who find him likeable (or even particularly knowledgeable).

Waite's first and foremost problem was that he could not let go of his orthodox Anglicanism. It was Church theology, and not practical occult experience, that colored most of his views.

[edit on 13-3-2006 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by BassClef
So are you saying there only half a dozen or so successful Freemasons in politics? Please answer the question.

I'm well aware of the role of Freemasonry in U.S politics, and who among the Brethren participated. the original assertion (and subsequent tap dancing) is all yours. Please refer to your post here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by BassClef
It seems a lot of Masons had great success in politics

This was prior to any participation by me, why won't you substantiate your claim? Is it because you can't?

Perhaps an epiphany is in order?

Originally posted by Masonic Light
lol, Waite disagreed with a lot of things. I'm not a fan of his, and I don't know many other modern students who find him likeable (or even particularly knowledgeable).

LOL, I haven't said that every Mason choses the dark path. Please remember what I've previously written!

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Waite's first and foremost problem was that he could not let go of his orthodox Anglicanism. It was Church theology, and not practical occult experience, that colored most of his views.

He was very much into ceremonial magic and conjuring up the spirits of the elements and this Freemason didn't live in the dark ages, either, or perhaps he did but, despite his Church background, he followed a very dark path and was celebrated by the Masonic craft at the same time!!!

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
why won't you substantiate your claim? Is it because you can't?

I don't need to substantiate the fact because you can look on any Masonic Website that lists famous Freemasons in poitcal life!

Originally posted by BassClef
So are you saying there only half a dozen or so successful Freemasons in politics? Please answer the question.

Not for nothing, but its you that should be answering the question. This can really be settled rather easily. Just list the masons who are powerful politicans. I can't imagine that there's only a dozen or so. Of course, people also tend to wrongly assume that 'most' presidents of the US were masons, which is entirely untrue.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by BassClef
So are you saying there only half a dozen or so successful Freemasons in politics? Please answer the question.

Not for nothing, but its you that should be answering the question. This can really be settled rather easily. Just list the masons who are powerful politicans. I can't imagine that there's only a dozen or so. Of course, people also tend to wrongly assume that 'most' presidents of the US were masons, which is entirely untrue.

You can see the reply I last gave...

Originally posted by Nygdan
Of course, people also tend to wrongly assume that 'most' presidents of the US were masons, which is entirely untrue.

Which is why I drew attention to the vast array of masonic effects associated with centres of important political power. In other words, places like Washington DC and London ooze masonic associations, more than in any other locations of little political significance. Hence the expression like bees arond a honey pot.

[edit on 13-3-2006 by BassClef]

Don't know of the accuracy of this site but it lists Masonic presidents:

www.pagrandlodge.org...

Only 14, according to them.

Edit: to add, I don't know how this deals with the topic though.

[edit on 13-3-2006 by intrepid]

Originally posted by intrepid
Don't know of the accuracy of this site but it lists Masonic presidents:

www.pagrandlodge.org...

Only 14, according to them.

14 isn't an insignificant number and as I've already said above, this is why I drew attention to the vast array of masonic effects associated with centres of important political power. In other words, places like Washington DC and London ooze masonic associations, more than in any other locations of little political significance. Hence the expression like bees arond a honey pot.

Originally posted by intrepid
Edit: to add, I don't know how this deals with the topic though.

You're right, we should get back to discussing why a 21 year old Freemason was repeatedly beaten by his Masonic fellows. They were obviously trying to instil fear in him, so he could be laughed at while being controlled.

Oh please, what's with the "effects" thing? You probably have more "effects" from the Catholic church.

Further and further off topic. :shk:

Originally posted by BassClef
I don't need to substantiate the fact because you can look on any Masonic Website that lists famous Freemasons in poitcal life!

Since you have declined to substantiate your earlier assertion, I'll file it under "frivolous claims without basis." I think all would agree you were given ample opportunity to support your point.

On to the next.

Originally posted by intrepid
Oh please, what's with the "effects" thing? You probably have more "effects" from the Catholic church.

The Catholic Church is highly corrupted but it's a fact, Masonic "fingerprints" are most prevalent in centres of important political power.

Originally posted by intrepid
Further and further off topic. :shk:

I'm happy to get back to the subject of this thread!

Originally posted by Mirthful Me

Originally posted by BassClef
I don't need to substantiate the fact because you can look on any Masonic Website that lists famous Freemasons in poitcal life!

Since you have declined to substantiate your earlier assertion, I'll file it under "frivolous claims without basis." I think all would agree you were given ample opportunity to support your point.

On to the next.

Thus answering your question, someone has already provided the answer and has come up with 14 Freemasons in Presidential postitions, not an insignificant number and when we take into consideration that Freemasonry has its greatest presence in places of the greatest political power. Freemasonry is attracted to political power like bees are attracted to honey.

[edit on 13-3-2006 by BassClef]

Meh...

Freemasonry can be as much, or as little, about "the occult" as the member desires.

As has already been stated though, it really depends on one's definition of "the occult".

If allegorical morality lessons = "the occult", then Jesus was an occultist too.

Most fundamentalist christians are simply given a blanket warning about all things esoteric. I would venture to guess that most of them have no idea why "the occult" is particularly bad, apart from vague notions about demonic possession and other such spiritual drama.

Originally posted by Roark
Freemasonry can be as much, or as little, about "the occult" as the member desires.

Of course Freemasonry can be as much, or as little about the "occult", as the member desires, which is why I said some Masons are only "belly Masons" and have no interest in the occult.

On the other hand, a member can get involved in the occult, in Freemasonry, as far as summonsing up demons. This is the spectrum Freemasonry covers!

Originally posted by Roark
If allegorical morality lessons = "the occult", then Jesus was an occultist too.

But he didn't write manuals on how to summons up spirits. He was against harnessing the spirits of the elements using pentagrams, etc.

Originally posted by Roark
Most fundamentalist Christians are simply given a blanket warning about all things esoteric. I would venture to guess that most of them have no idea why "the occult" is particularly bad, apart from vague notions about demonic possession and other such spiritual drama.

I disagree and your comment is patronising and condescending. A lot of Christians know very well what the occult is!

Originally posted by BassClef

LOL, I haven't said that every Mason choses the dark path. Please remember what I've previously written!

I would hardly say that Waite chose any dark paths. See my response to your next comment for elaboration.

He was very much into ceremonial magic and conjuring up the spirits of the elements and this Freemason didn't live in the dark ages, either, or perhaps he did but, despite his Church background, he followed a very dark path and was celebrated by the Masonic craft at the same time!!!

Waite is generally viewed by modern occults and ceremonial magicians as a snobbish, holier-than-thou Christian theologian who attempted to impose his own personal views on Magick, rather than learn anything from Magick (it was Aleister Crowley who dubbed him "Mr. Goody-Two-Shoes").

Waite's involvement in Ceremonial Magick came from his membership in the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. After the 1899 schism, Waite unsuccessfully attempted to reform the London Temple under the name "Stella Matutina". He began leading this group away from Ceremonial Magick, and closer to traditional orthodox Christian mysticism, which alienated many, including Dr. Israel Regardie and other Jewish members.

Waite thus presents sort of a paradox. Some of Waite's writings are interesting and instructional, while others are full of errors. Some Masonic authors, especially Voorhis and Newton, have praised Waite, but personally, I've never been very impressed. Waite did contribute to occultism through his Ryder-Waite Tarot (even though some of the attributions are wrong), and outside of strictly occult circles, he was a relatively active Mason under the United Grand Lodge of England.

But on the flip side, if a beginning student in either occultism or Masonry takes up Waite as their sole guide, chances are that he'll lead them into a bunch of nonsense which will take twice as long to recovery from. For this reason, I only recommend Waite to those reading for entertainment, not serious study.