21 year old GI killed in Masonic mystery

Originally posted by sanse_nz
What I find interesting is this:

If this initiation ceremony and "hoodwinking" is as bad as what is suggested by the thread starters article from "digbig.com" or whatever other unauthenticated information buckets he has found...

The news story does come from an authentic news site and it's not digbig.com, as you've suggested... so get your facts right and don't jump to conclusions.

Originally posted by BassClef

If this initiation ceremony and "hoodwinking" is as bad as what is suggested by the thread starters article from "digbig.com" or whatever other unauthenticated information buckets he has found...

The news story does come from an authentic news site and it's not digbig.com, as you've suggested... so get your facts right and don't jump to conclusions.

Just because it comes from an "authentic news site" doesn't necessarily mean the information there is infallible. There are conflicting stories about what happened, but from what I can see, none claim that he was hazed in a Lodge. It could have been a prank gone way wrong perpetrated by his army buddies.

In any case, are there any Prince Hall Masons around? When I was browsing the web investigating the story, I came across some comments from several Prince Hall Masons that hazing is rampant in the PH affiliation. Is this true, and if so, is anything being done to stop it?

There was even one story as to how this boy's parents warned him to stay away from Prince Hall Lodges, and told him they'd pay all his initiation fees and dues if he waited to join a mainsteam (non-Prince Hall) Lodge back in Texas. Does anybody know anything about this?

[edit on 10-3-2006 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Just because it comes from an "authentic news site" doesn't necessarily mean the information there is infallible. There are conflicting stories about what happened, but from what I can see, none claim that he was hazed in a Lodge. It could have been a prank gone way wrong perpetrated by his army buddies.

The poster by the moniker of sanse_nz questioned the source of the story, stating it came from digbig.com, so I set the record straight that it didn't come from that source and the story is authentic.

His mother, Diane Wilder, said her son told her that if he got so drunk that he passed out, his fellow Masons would take his blows.

The Prince Hall grand lodge that has jurisdiction of the lodge in which Wilder was active, should sort itself out and make sure these beatings don't continue against other young men. It shouldn't have happened in the first place.

Thanks for keeping this thread at the top of the list. All the more reason why the Prince Hall grand lodge should keep it's errant acolites in order.

www.estripes.com...
After the ceremony, Donald Wilder went out clubbing, his mother said.
[...]it is unknown whether Wilder died of alcohol poisoning or something else

Seems like this lodge of Prince Hall Masons are basically a bunch of wild drunkards. Sounds like nothing different than a college frat.

It also sounds like this kid is a borderline alcoholic. Does anyone really need to wonder if the paddling he received is the cause of death? He could've gotten some bad drugs when he was out clubbing, or simply drank to much. That sort of thing is hardly unheard of in the military.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Seems like this lodge of Prince Hall Masons are basically a bunch of wild drunkards. Sounds like nothing different than a college frat.

It wasn't a "college frat". These men were Freemasons and soldiers under the jursdiction of the Prince Hall Grand Lodge in which Wilder was active.

It also sounds like this kid is a borderline alcoholic.

You've obviously got no heart or feelings for the berieved family and the more people that see this thread at the top of the list, to see how Masonic supporters regard human tragedy, the better.

[edit on 10-3-2006 by BassClef]

Originally posted by BassClef

You've obviously got no heart or feelings for the berieved family and the more people that see this thread at the top of the list, to see how Masonic supporters regard human tragedy, the better.

Actually, I think Nygdan makes a good point. If I was beaten to the point of death in some kind of ritual, I certainly wouldn't be able to then pick myself up and go out for a night on the town. After whatever sort of ceremony he went through, it didn't affect his ability to go partying, which leads me to doubt the direct link of any Prince Hall ritual in his death. But we're still only speculating, and I suspect the medical examiner will give the final verdict soon.

[edit on 10-3-2006 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Actually, I think Nygdan makes a good point.

I don't think so. Accusing the son of a recently bereaved family of being an alcoholic is shameful, especially when he was repetitively beaten and abused by his fellow Freemasons.

Nygdan wrote:

> It also sounds like this kid is a borderline alcoholic.

[edit on 10-3-2006 by BassClef]

Nygdan rightly pointed out that the young man and his friends did a lot of drinking and partying. His death followed such a night, as is written in the article you yourself posted.

Now, whether or not he was an alcoholic, I have no idea, but it's obvious that substance abuse immediately preceded his death.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Nygdan rightly pointed out that the young man and his friends did a lot of drinking and partying. His death followed such a night, as is written in the article you yourself posted.

Now, whether or not he was an alcoholic, I have no idea, but it's obvious that substance abuse immediately preceded his death.

Any young man might have resorted to alcohol if he was repeatedly beaten up and abused by his unbrotherly Freemasons.

Originally posted by BassClef
Any young man might have resorted to alcohol if he was repeatedly beaten up and abused by his unbrotherly Freemasons.

Are you actually going to condemn an entire organization based on the questionable substance of one article? Even if you had a book full of anecdotal evidence, it's still just that...anecdotal.

Originally posted by BassClef

Originally posted by Nygdan
Seems like this lodge of Prince Hall Masons are basically a bunch of wild drunkards. Sounds like nothing different than a college frat.

It wasn't a "college frat".

I understand, I am saying that it sounds like a college frat.

It also sounds like this kid is a borderline alcoholic.

You've obviously got no heart
Indeed. Point??

or feelings for the berieved family and the more people that see this thread at the top of the list, to see how Masonic supporters

Ah, so thats the problem, not that I am heartless, rather that you think I am a "masonic-supporter". So its not the truth that you are interested in, rather partisan 'secret society' politics. Fair enough.

v

How about he just drank too much like so many other young people his age???? Or how about when might've bought some bad pills for his 'night out', like so many other young people of his generation???? He went out drinking and partying, he 'woke up dead'; tend to indicate that he has a problem drinking and partying, not that he was being abused by the freemasons.

Masonic Light
I certainly wouldn't be able to then pick myself up and go out for a night on the town

And when the medics discovered your body, it'd (probably) be pretty obvious that you'd been bludgeoned to death. Of course, it is possible that he had some sort of internal injury of some sort. However I suspect that we won't see any updates if he just drank himself to death or got bad pills from his dealer.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by BassClef

Originally posted by Nygdan
Seems like this lodge of Prince Hall Masons are basically a bunch of wild drunkards. Sounds like nothing different than a college frat.

It wasn't a "college frat".

I understand, I am saying that it sounds like a college frat.

It may be like an out of control frat party but, let's not conveniently forget that the circumsatnces in which the young GI died, come under the interests of a Prince Hall Grand Lodge.

It also sounds like this kid is a borderline alcoholic.

You've obviously got no heart

Indeed. Point??

I was making the point that any young man might resort to the booze if he's so often being beaten by his fellow Freemasons. Perhaps I was wrong about you having no heart, I'm sorry but i'm sure you'll agree with me that this young man shouldn't have been treated in this way and that the Prince hall Grand Lodge must do everything it can to create an atmosphere where this kind of callous behaviour can't flourish, otherwise it should shut the rogue Lodge down.

or feelings for the berieved family and the more people that see this thread at the top of the list, to see how Masonic supporters

Ah, so thats the problem, not that I am heartless, rather that you think I am a "masonic-supporter". So its not the truth that you are interested in, rather partisan 'secret society' politics. Fair enough.

I haven't noted any compassion expressed towards the GI by any Mason so far in this thread but perhaps I've jumped the gun, I'm sorry again, if I have. However, it would be good to have a statement for the record that if the young man hadn't been spanked to the extent that he had to get sloshed and was physically sick with fear, then the story may not have arrived in the Stars and Stripes news site.

How about he just drank too much like so many other young people his age???? Or how about when might've bought some bad pills for his 'night out', like so many other young people of his generation???? He went out drinking and partying, he 'woke up dead'; tend to indicate that he has a problem drinking and partying, not that he was being abused by the freemasons.

He was drinking because of the mental and physical torture he had to endure from his fellow Freemasons. As I said previously, any young man might have done the same thing. Very sad.

Masonic Light
I certainly wouldn't be able to then pick myself up and go out for a night on the town

And when the medics discovered your body, it'd (probably) be pretty obvious that you'd been bludgeoned to death. Of course, it is possible that he had some sort of internal injury of some sort. However I suspect that we won't see any updates if he just drank himself to death or got bad pills from his dealer.

If he did indeed drink himself to death, then his fellow Freemasons must carry that in their conscience.

[edit on 10-3-2006 by BassClef]

[edit on 10-3-2006 by BassClef]

Originally posted by Damocles357

Originally posted by BassClef
Any young man might have resorted to alcohol if he was repeatedly beaten up and abused by his unbrotherly Freemasons.

Are you actually going to condemn an entire organization based on the questionable substance of one article? Even if you had a book full of anecdotal evidence, it's still just that...anecdotal.

The Stars and Stripes news site looks far too high standard to manufacture a story like that. Too many quotes from the young man's mother. She said her son told her he was being beaten up by Masons in his Lodge and that it was causing him to drink.

The Prince Hall Grand Lodge commented, adding even more weight to the news story, published in the Stars and Stripes news site. Stars and Stripes would have too much to loose, given the high standard and established nature of the Website, which, in the news report, even gives a link to the Prince Hall Grand Lodge Website, if I remember correctly.

I'm not condemning an entire organisation for what clearly happened in Mannheim, in a Masonic Lodge under the jurisdiction of the Prince Hall GL. I'm saying the responsible Grand Lodge should either dispel it's Lodge or do everything it can to make sure we never hear another story like this again.

[edit on 10-3-2006 by BassClef]

Originally posted by BassClef

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Nygdan rightly pointed out that the young man and his friends did a lot of drinking and partying. His death followed such a night, as is written in the article you yourself posted.

Now, whether or not he was an alcoholic, I have no idea, but it's obvious that substance abuse immediately preceded his death.

Any young man might have resorted to alcohol if he was repeatedly beaten up and abused by his unbrotherly Freemasons.

So, BassClef, you're suggesting that a young man who died after a drunken binge of some kind is all the Mason's fault? Please, think clearly for a moment - many young men have died after heavy drinking sessions for many reasons, in frat situations and many other kinds of group scenarios. You make it sound like it is Freemasonry brotherhood as a whole that caused this young man to die of something that kills many many people
through the violence alcohol can fuel in people. Alcohol in excess is dire in any situation.

With regard to the article and its authenticity - haha do you honestly believe everything you read? Goodness me, you do have a lot to learn. My point is that just because something is reported, it doesn't make it accurate to a fault.

Contrary to your beliefs, Freemasonry isn't to blame for everything wrong in this world. Individuals who make the wrong choices are.

I feel for this family, of course. But I also feel for every family who loses a family member to the consequences of alcohol, drugs and all the other stimulants in this world. How many fights do you read about in your local paper about drunken brawls where someone is killed? Are they the Freemasons fault too? What these individuals in this situation chose to do during their alcohol fuelled 'party' is their choice, not teachings of any kind.

[edit on 11-3-2006 by sanse_nz]

It would seem to me that this is just another way for someone to lay blame on someone else because they can't find any other way to explain what happened. Like has been said, there is an autopsy under way. Why can't people wait to see what the doctor has to say, instead of speculating the entire time?

To make matters worse, just because this person was the member of a Masonic Order, they as Masons have been branded as evil individuals for "killing the kid". I think it's just a really convenient way to produce a scapegoat that makes people happy, as well as to incite an argument, where none should be warranted.

In my honest opinion, this is a null argument until the autopsy comes back. Lemme know.

TheBorg

Borg,

It's a question of common sense, nothing more, where there's smoke there's fire... If you saw smoke coming from your house you would be quite a fool to ignore it while you sit and wait for someone to come along and tell you that your house is on fire..

It's got to the point now where nobody neutral can seriously deny that something very dark is at work in Freemasonry.. Those that do have an interest in protecting themselves and their craft. Personally, my interest is in truth, I have no career riding on being a brother of good report nor do I fear anyone arranging for me to have a little 'accident'... The pressures must be great for you masons... I quite feel sorry for you.

We know that many of our democratically elected leaders have been assassinated by a 'black-hand' protecting its own interests. We know that Masons are involved in organised crime (exposure of their crimes being one of the reasons they went underground in the UK). We also know that Masons are corrpupt and involved in perverting the course of justice...

Here are more facts (but masons seldom let these get in their way):

"When a freemason is being initiated into the third degree he is struck on the forhead in the dark, falling back either into a coffin or onto a coffin shape design. His fellow masons lift him up and when he opens his eyes he is confronted with a human skull and crossed bones. Under this death threat how can any freemason of third degree or higher be trusted, particularly in public office? He is hoodwinked literally and metaphorically, placing himself in a cult and under a curse." Ex-masonic judge

The following article, from a Scottish newspaper, is very illuminating....

Just to remind you of what the Dumblane Massacre was:

The small Scottish town of Dunblane was racked with grief and horror last night as details emerged of the killer who had lived in their midst until yesterday, when he shot dead 16 small children and a teacher in three minutes of carnage in a primary school gym.
Thomas Hamilton, aged 43, a disgraced former Scout master whose behaviour had attracted the attention of the police, turned one of his four guns on himself after killing or injuring all but one of a class of 29 five- and six-year-olds at Dunblane primary school, near Stirling.

I think we all know what 'disgraced former scout master' means.

Investigation: By Neil Mackay, Home Affairs Editor
www.sundayherald.com...
see also www.propagandamatrix.com...


LETTERS between Labour and Tory ministers and correspondence relating to Thomas Hamilton's alleged involvement with Freemasonry are part of a batch of more than 100 documents about the Dunblane mass murder which have been sealed from public sight for 100 years.

The documents include a letter connected to Hamilton, which was sent by George Robertson, currently head of Nato, to Michael Forsyth, who was then Secretary of State for Scotland.

Until now it was thought that a 100-year public secrecy order had only been placed on one police report into Hamilton which allegedly named high-profile politicians and legal figures. However, a Sunday Herald investigation has uncovered that 106 documents, which were submitted to the Dunblane inquiry in 1996, were also placed under the 100-year rule.

The Scottish Executive has claimed the 100-year secrecy order was placed on the Central Police report, which was drafted in 1991 five years before the murders, to protect the identities of children named in the report. Hamilton had allegedly abused a number of children prior to his 1996 gun attack on Dunblane primary school in which 16 primary one children and a teacher died before Hamilton turned his gun on himself.

However, only a handful of the documents, which the Sunday Herald has discovered to be also subject to the 100-year rule, relate to children or name alleged abuse victims.

The most intriguing document is listed as: 'Copy of letter from Thomas Hamilton to Dunblane parents regarding boys' club, and flyer advertising Dunblane Boys' Sports Club. Both sent to Rt Hon Michael Forsyth, MP, Secretary of State for Scotland, by George Robertson MP.' Also closed under the 100-year rule is a 'submission to Lord James Douglas Hamilton, MP, Minister of State at the Scottish Office, concerning government evidence to the Inquiry'.

Another document relates to correspondence between the clerk of the Dunblane inquiry, which was presided over by Lord Cullen, and a member of the public regarding 'possible affiliations of Thomas Hamilton with Freemasonry ... and copy letters from Thomas Hamilton'.

SNP deputy justice minister, Michael Matheson, said: 'The explanation to date about the 100 -year rule was that it was put in place to protect the interests of children named in the Central Police report. How can that explanation stand when children aren't named? The 100-year rule needs to be re-examined with respect to all documents.'

Matheson has written to the Lord Advocate, Colin Boyd, asking why the 100-year rule applies and how it can be revoked. He has so far had no response. He also asked First Minister Jack McConnell to explain the reasons for the 100-year order but received 'no substantial answer'. Matheson is to write to Colin Boyd a second time, in the light of the discovery that more than 100 other documents are also sealed, asking him to account for the decision.

A spokeswoman for the Crown Office said: 'In consultation with the Crown Office and the Scottish Office, Lord Cullen agreed that in line with the age of some of the individuals involved and named in the inquiry, the closure period would be 100 years. The Lord Advocate is considering issuing a redacted copy of the productions, which would blank out identifying details of children and their families. A decision on this has yet to be made.'

Other sealed key reports on Dunblane include:
A 'comparative analysis of Thomas Hamilton' by Central Scotland Police
Information about Hamilton's 'use and possession of firearms'
Pathology reports, Hamilton's autopsy report, and analysis by Glasgow University's forensic science lab on blood, urine and liver samples from Hamilton's body
Details on firearms licensing policies
A review by Alfred Vannet, regional procurator fiscal of Grampian, Highland and Islands, of 'reports and information in respect of Thomas Hamilton submitted to the procurator fiscals of Dumbarton and Stirling by Strathclyde Police and Central Police'
A psychological report on Hamilton
Guidance from the British Medical Association on granting firearms licences
'Transcript of and correspondence relating to answering-machine tape which accidentally recorded conversation between police officers at the scene of the Dunblane incident'
Correspondence and witness statements 'relating to allegations of sexual abuse made against Hamilton'
www.sundayherald.com...







"The individual is handicapped by coming face-to-face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists." J. Edgar Hoover

[edit on 11-3-2006 by Edelweiss Pirate]

Originally posted by BassClef


I'm not condemning an entire organisation for what clearly happened in Mannheim, in a Masonic Lodge under the jurisdiction of the Prince Hall GL. I'm saying the responsible Grand Lodge should either dispel it's Lodge or do everything it can to make sure we never hear another story like this again.

I said the same thing in my very first post. IF the Prince Hall members were involved in his death, they should be brought up on criminal charges. If they weren't, they should still be expelled for hazing.

The Prince Hall Lodges across the board say they want to be recognized by us as legitimate Masons. If they really want this, their leadership will get their act together, and put an end to all hazing. I personally will never cast a vote in my Grand Lodge to recognize Prince Hall until this has been addressed, and dealt with unambiguously.

Originally posted by Edelweiss Pirate
The pressures must be great for you masons... I quite feel sorry for you.

You may keep your pity. I think the Masons around here are quite happy.

Originally posted by sanse_nz

So, BassClef, you're suggesting that a young man who died after a drunken binge of some kind is all the Mason's fault?

No, I'm not saying it's the fault of all Masons... as I said to "Mood", IF he did indeed drink himself to death and we don't know if he wasn't murdered, then his fellow Freemasons must carry that on their conscience because any young man in his situation might have turned to alcoholism in his situation, what the severe repetitive beatings he received from his fellow Masons.

Originally posted by sanse_nz

With regard to the article and its authenticity - haha do you honestly believe everything you read?

As I said to Damocles357", the Stars and Stripes news site looks far too high standard to manufacture a story like that. Too many quotes from the young man's mother. She said her son told her he was being beaten up by Masons in his Lodge and that it was causing him to drink.

The Prince Hall Grand Lodge commented, adding even more weight to the news story, published in the Stars and Stripes news site. Stars and Stripes would have too much to loose, given the high standard and established nature of the Website, which, in the news report, even gives a link to the Prince Hall Grand Lodge Website, if I remember correctly.

[edit on 11-3-2006 by BassClef]

It's got to the point now where nobody neutral can seriously deny that something very dark is at work in Freemasonry.. Those that do have an interest in protecting themselves and their craft. Personally, my interest is in truth, I have no career riding on being a brother of good report nor do I fear anyone arranging for me to have a little 'accident'... The pressures must be great for you masons... I quite feel sorry for you.

Edelweiss, I'm not surprised that you are able to condemn and then pity the Masons in one paragraph, your argument tactics are as simplistic as they are misleading.

Keep your pity, I don't need it. Nor do I need to act according to some secret doctrine in order to keep my job. Your assumptions of "something very dark" in the Craft are just plain silly.