Indian Air Force : News, Pics and Discussion thread

if alot of the euro countries pull out of the F-35 , would that open the door for india to join , and thus they get it for there MRCA?


edit: one day i will learn to type properly

[edit on 5/1/06 by Harlequin]

India have got an invite to some JSF event and will be getting a technical briefing on the F-35 next year from US lt.gen Kohler . In addition a senior Lockheed executive said in an interview that they would like to sell the F-35 to India.

However technology transfer is India's need than having several of the F-35's as the IAF enjoys a comfortable lead over the PAF. When the US is unwilling to share its technology with the UK, despite the latter offering to pay for the same, i cant see India getting any close to the F-35's technology. From previous expierences of sanctions and embargos, it is fairly clear that India wont buy anything that it does not have tech-sovergnity over. In addition the cost of the F-35 is against it in any prospective sale to India. Further, India have alredy announced the MCA, and have signed an agreement with Russia which in principle agrees to co-develop a 5th gen plane with the former.

India missed a December deadline to issue a request for proposals for more than 100 new fighters, with industry sources expecting a delay of between two and three months while New Delhi revises its requirements. India received information in early 2005 on the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Mirage 2000, Lockheed Martin F-16, RSK MiG-35 and Saab Gripen, but its specifications could change to also allow the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault’s Rafale to compete. Initial plans to acquire 126 fighters, including 108 to be assembled locally, could also change to total 200 aircraft split between two types.

Article >>

Specs will be changed so that the Eurocanards can come in as well. *shakes head*

IMHO this tender has gone out of control.

[edit on 5-1-2006 by Stealth Spy]

Originally posted by waynos
I have previously seen that India wouldn't consider buying the Rafale or Typhoon on grounds of cost, does this new figure then change that assumption?

Yes IMHO. Since a split deal is possible the eurocanards have a good chance. Politics and lobbying also have a role. Perhaps the rafale/typhoon wont come with tech transfer or co-production to reduce unit costs (?)

Flight International says :

Sources say efforts by the French and UK governments to persuade India to add the Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon to the shortlist appear to have been successful.

link

Stealth Spy, thanks.

If I may be mischeivous here What will you do if the IAF bought the Typhoon? If you are simultaneouslty telling us how great the IAF fighter force is while also telling us how the Typhoon is no good you will have a nervous breakdown!

Or maybe only Indian Typhoons with Indian pilots will be any good

Joking aside, might there be some connection with the timing of this coinciding as it does quite closely with the Saudi Typhoon order?

I don't know if there is but it might be worth thinking about.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
^^ Yup that about covers it all.

And for further details on the air wars of 65 and 71, please refer to acig.org
The cards held by both sides were pretty muc hmuch the same, with tech being better on the PAF side.
Plus, do not forget that the PAF is not some poopy AF that all of you make it out to be.
Hell, I say they HAD/still have pilots which are probably equal to if not better than the BEST the world has to offer. Do a search on PAF pilots in the Israeli wars. Now taking out IAF(Israeli) jets in a2a is no piece of cake.
The PAF is highly trained, and they have a habit of making the best out of what they have. Its just that in the recent decade or so, they've had major monetary and political shortcomings.But with the 75 new F-16s
(blk 50) they're getting, they pack a lot of power. Still they're technologically overwhelmed by the InAF. Please don't diss the IAF or the PAF. Both are very capable, and the IAF has something else called the PLAAF to deal with. So there is no numerical advantage between the PAF and the IAF.

yup i knew i was forgetting somethin from my post

Whats the actual track range of BARS?. Its something like 120km for a fighter sized object?

The Times of India has reported that the Indian Air force is to replace its ageing MIG's with russian and US aircraft.

So they may be buying US warplanes afterall!!

timesofindia.indiatimes.com...

also at the end the article says that there are 6% women pilots....cool...

Feels good to be back on ATS again ...

The article seems to be full of typo errors - and the nature of the same indicate its written by a novice DDM wannabe.

check out the highlighted parts :
timesofindia.indiatimes.com...

The Indian Air Force would phase out the MIG aircraft in a gradual manner and replace these with Multi Roll

Combat fighters, being purchased from the US and Russia, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Western Command, Air Marshal AK Singh said in Jammu.

Pointing out that the new aircraft would be technologically more advanced than MIGs, Singh said 120 MIG Bisan

aircraft, also known as MIG WIZ, were recently upgraded and would be in use for another one-and-half decade.

Excrepts from Interview With Vice Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal Ajit Bhavnani

Vice Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal Ajit Bhavnani PVSM, AVSM, VM, ADC.

When will the global Request for Proposal (RFP) for Multi Role Combat Aircraft be given out? Has the requirement of 126 aircraft gone up? The RFP will be issued for which all aircraft?

The RFP for the MMRCA is expected to be issued shortly. The requirement of number of aircraft has not changed. It is proposed to issue the RFP for the Gripen, Mirage-2000, Rafale, F-16, F-18, MiG-35 and Eurofighter.

What is the update on the Light Combat Aircraft?

The LCA programme has reached a level of maturity wherein, the IAF has decided to place an order for 20 LCA in Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) configuration. The IOC configuration would give a reasonable operational capability to the aircraft. The contract for the LCA is likely to be signed in the current financial year. The deliveries of these 20 aircraft are proposed to commence in 2008 and the last aircraft is proposed to be delivered in 2011.

When will the RFP for 80 medium lift helicopters be issued? It is understood that during your visit to the UK in November 2004, you flew the AgustaWestland EH-101 helicopter? Is this helicopter a serious contender along with Eurocopter EC-532 Cougar and the Russian Mi-17V-5?

A final decision on issue of RFP for the 80 MLH is under consideration. The RFP for the same is likely to be issued in the next two to three months. I was given an opportunity to fly the EH-101 Merlin helicopter in the UK. It certainly was an impressive platform and more importantly, it has a very impressive full-mission simulator.

Are there plans to buy more IL-78MKI-90 refuellers from Uzbekistan? If yes, how many?

There is a proposal to procure six additional Flight Refuelling Aircraft.

Has the IAF got the two Integrated Air Command & Control Systems (IACCs) for trials? In what time frame the IAF hopes to decide on this acquisition?

India has a very strong base for IT solutions. Hence, we have decided to go in for a true indigenous capability for our Integrated Air Command & Control System. Prototype IACCS are under indigenous development and we are very satisfied with its developmental progress. The field trials for the same are scheduled for June-July 2006. Such an in-house capability will strengthen our ability to find new solutions in this fast evolving technological field.

What is the update on the need for medium-powered and low-level transportable radars?

Update on the need of MPR & LLTR is as follows: The IAF is in the process of upgrading its existing Surface to Air Missile systems. We are also evaluating new medium powered radars and low level transportable radars to replace the existing systems, in this area, which needs new and modern radar systems for optimising our network centric operations and command and control system.

-Credits to Austin

Britain offers 8 additional Sea Harrier jump jets to Indian Navy

www.outlookindia.com...

Britain today said it had offered eight Sea Harrier jump jets to enable Indian Navy to maintain its naval fighter strength and said New Delhi would receive the first batch of Hawk advanced jet trainers early next year to fill a void in training of fighter pilots.

The offer was unveiled by visiting British Minister for Defence Procurement Lord Drayson who said the Sea Harriers would be from the inventory of the Royal Navy.

Second hand sea harriers ... no way i say. Mig-29K is the way ahead.

Heading a high level British official delegation to the DefExpo 06, Lord Drayson also said Typhoon Eurofighter would be in contention for IAF's plans to acquire 126 multi-role combat aircraft and British companies were also offering its Merlin EH101 helicopters to augment IAF medium lift capability.

On Merlin helicopters, he said, "negotiations with Indian Air Force officials were on. "The IAF is proposing to purchase 80 medium lift helicopters as part of its move to augment its strategic lift capability.

Turning to AJT, he said "Hawk advanced jet trainers would fly with Indian Air Force later this year and the first batch will be delivered few months after (they fly with IAF)." In an interaction with media, Lord Drayson said he was looking at close working relationships with Indian companies in defence sector and encourage their presence in UK.

On Typhoon, Drayson said United Kingdom was not informed earlier when the initial Request for Information (RFI) was floated.

So the Typhoon has somehow sneaked in. Looks like the recent crash has had no effect. I smell some ugly lobbying in the near future.

Britain threatens to stop spares supply for Navy aircraft

www.outlookindia.com...

Britain today said it would have to stop supply of spares for Indian Navy's ageing Islander maritime aircraft, if New Delhi went ahead with supplying the aircraft to Mynmmar.

India had proposed to offer one islander aircraft to Myanmar for maritime reconnaissance during Naval Chief Admiral Arun Prakash's forthcoming visit to the country.

Asked about the recent controversy on upgraded deep penetration strike aircraft, Jaguar, and whether Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd had sought the consent of the original equipment manufacturer for making changes in the electronic and fuel lines of aircraft, British officials said the question should be posed to British Aerospace, the manufacturers.

What could possbily be the sanity in making needless threats about the sale of some outdated, to-be-retired junk to Burma ? and the timing of making such threats ... well what can you say ... at the same time when you want to sell 10 billion $ worth of typhoons, transport copters, more sea harriers and what not ?? wonder what India thinks of the "reliability" of the partner in question now ??

In addition i see no reason why HAL had to take BAe's permission to modify the Jaguar to India's custom DARIN III standard unless its a part of the contractual obligations.

[edit on 1-2-2006 by Stealth Spy]

Welcome back stealth spy, it seems like ages sinmce you were last here

Now, onto business

Second hand sea harriers ... no way i say. Mig-29K is the way ahead.

On the face of it I would agree with you, however I don't this is instead of any MiG's is it? According to reports it is merely to allow the Sea Harrier force to remain effective? The Indian Navy intends to keep the Sea Harrier in service until 2015.

Also, if these aircraft are from RN stocks does that mean they will be F/A.2'S? I don't know if the RN has any FRS.1's remaining in storage, if they do these will be most likely to go to India, however if they are F/A.2's then that will bring a huge leap in capability with it, the F/A.2 was much more than a simple upgrade, however on the down side wouldn't this bring commonality issues with it? Thats why I wonder if they will be FRS.1's instead.

These could then go through the radar upgrade that India plans anyway before delivery allowing India to avoid having a large chunk of its current force missing while the upgrades take place.

While I'm at it;

So the Typhoon has somehow sneaked in. Looks like the recent crash has had no effect. I smell some ugly lobbying in the near future.

In what way 'sneaked' in? Don't your govt and commanders owe it to your pilots to consider every option and to select the best available after due consideration? Surely it would be remiss of them to dismiss any competitor out of hand?

Why should the the 'crash' make any difference? it wasn't an aircraft or design fault, the nose gear leg didn't lock in place properly, thats all.

Your dislike of the Typhoon betrays you again old chum.

Mind you, you aren't as bad as 'The Scotsman' whose hopelessly biased diatribe is subheaded with the words 'Crash Prone Jet' and illustrated with a photo of a Typhoon taking off turned upside down so it looks like it is diving into the ground!

How's that for an agenda
PS How would the lobbying with the Typhoon included by any dirtier than the Lobbying by Boeing, Dassault et all without it, hmmm?

[edit on 1-2-2006 by waynos]

Originally posted by chinawhite
Whats the actual track range of BARS?. Its something like 120km for a fighter sized object?

Which Bars radar are you refering to ? Bars is a family of radars from Russia's NIIP Institute and comprises of radars like the N011M for the MKI, Bars-29 for the Mig-29K, etc

The tracking range NO11M of the MKI for instance as described in the official NIIP brochure, posted on the vayu sena site reads >> For aircraft N011M has a 350 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and 60 km in the rear hemisphere. A MiG-21 for instance can be detected at a distance of up to 135 km. Design maximum search range for an F-16 target was 140-160km. A Bars' earlier variant, fitted with a five-kilowatt transmitter, proved to be capable of detecting Su-27 fighters at a range of over 330 km. The radar can track 20 air targets and engage the 4 most threatening targets simultaneously (this capability was introduced in the Indian RC1 and RC2). These targets can include cruise/ballistic missiles and even motionless helicopters. "We can count the number of blades in the engine of the aircraft in sight (by the NO11M) and by that determine its type," NIIP says.

Note that these numbers are applicable to Indian Su-30MKI's only- as the HAL made Radar Computers and processing units provide a greater tracking efficiency and enable the same radar to track a greater number of targets than the same N011M with its standard Russian Radar Computers.


Getting to the new Bars-29 (Barsisk) for India's Mig-29K's, the ACIG writeup reads >> The 250 kg NIIP Bars-29 'Barsik' is a development of the original Bars-30MKI, intended for the MiG-29. With a relatively low power output of 1 kW, the radar can detect a 5 sq.m RCS target at 100-120 km, lock on to the same at 85 km. The radar can track-while-scan 15 targets and engage 4 of them simultaneously. As with the original, this set combines electronic scanning with a mechanical drive.

Originally posted by waynos
Also, if these aircraft are from RN stocks does that mean they will be F/A.2'S? I don't know if the RN has any FRS.1's remaining in storage, if they do these will be most likely to go to India, however if they are F/A.2's then that will bring a huge leap in capability with it, the F/A.2 was much more than a simple upgrade, however on the down side wouldn't this bring commonality issues with it? Thats why I wonder if they will be FRS.1's instead.

These could then go through the radar upgrade that India plans anyway before delivery allowing India to avoid having a large chunk of its current force missing while the upgrades take place.

Perhaps its the F/A.2's but would the F/A.2's be significantly be better than the to-be heavily upgraded existing FRS Mk51 Sea Harriers of the Indian Navy ?

linkIn March 2005, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) cleared the upgradation of 14 Sea Harriers. Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee stated that the aircraft will be upgraded at a cost of Rs 476.69 crore and will be carried out by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bangalore. He also stated that the upgradation will involve the installation of new radars (Elta EL/M-2032 multimode fire control radar), new air-to-air missiles (Derby BVRAAM) from Israeli firm Rafael, combat manoeuvring flight recorders and digital cockpit voice recorders.

^^ I hope they get the requisite permission (if necessary) before going along with the upgradation, to avoid any further friction.

Also, perhaps some new sea harriers would be a good substitute if ADA and HAL serew up the Naval Tejas.

Thats the upgrade I was referring to, if the Shars on offer are FRS.1's then it will be perfectly straightforward to put them through the same programme, this makes a lot of sense. If they are F/A.2'S this would complicate the issue, which is never good.

I'm not sure what the design capabilities are of the new ELTA radars or how they compare with the Blue Vixen of the Shar 2, but this Shar was a superb BVR fighter with AMRAAM missile armament and also more powerful engines. Could you post more details on the Indian upgrade? I feel sure trhere will be a striong BVR element to it too as it would make little sense otherwise.

Lockheed Martin may source F-16 parts from HAL

link
NEW DELHI: American giant Lockheed Martin is looking at the possibility of sourcing components from Hindustan Aeronautics for its popular F-16 fighter aircraft. The US company is also looking at other possibilities for partnership with Indian companies.

The scope of ties with Indian companies could include transfer of technology and joint production, Robert H Trice, senior vice president, Lockheed Martin, said today.

Indian firms have the capability and we see strong partnerships in the long-term, he told ET after announcing his company’s participation at the DefExpo India.

The level of co-operation would subject to government rules on transfer of technology. At the current juncture it is considered that the prospects are bright since India and the US are looking at a strategic partnership that covers various areas including security.

I doubt if this will happen ... the possibility of India buying the block 70 is bleak to say the least. I wonder is Lockheed will be interested in this without India buying F-16's

Originally posted by waynos
Thats the upgrade I was referring to, if the Shars on offer are FRS.1's then it will be perfectly straightforward to put them through the same programme, this makes a lot of sense. If they are F/A.2'S this would complicate the issue, which is never good.

I'm not sure what the design capabilities are of the new ELTA radars or how they compare with the Blue Vixen of the Shar 2, but this Shar was a superb BVR fighter with AMRAAM missile armament and also more powerful engines. Could you post more details on the Indian upgrade? I feel sure trhere will be a striong BVR element to it too as it would make little sense otherwise.

Yes. It will be interesting to see what comes out of this. There is also a lot of talk of India buying the now retired British carrier 'Invincible'. Perhaps these new Harriers may come along with it.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

EDIT : found more :

Malcolm Haworth, director of the Defence Export Services Organisation and part of Drayson's delegation, said the Indian Navy had expressed "strong interest" in acquiring six to eight used Sea Harriers that would be retired from service by the Royal Navy in France.

"We are in detailed discussions with the Indian Navy, and we also talked yesterday. There are lots of issues to resolve, and we are hopeful we can find a way to transfer them to the Indian Navy," said Haworth.

The Indian Navy plans to use the jets to replenish its ageing fleet of Sea Harriers that are deployed with its aircraft carrier INS Viraat.

Full >>


[edit on 1-2-2006 by Stealth Spy]

Speculation about the Rafale

Now the line-up seeking the massive IAF pie is almost certain to look like this: the US companies Lockheed-Martin and Boeing pushing their fighters F-16 and F/A-18 respectively, the French peddling their Mirage-2000, Sweden with Gripen fighter, and now the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Further, indications are that the French may further add to the competition by pushing Rafale fighter into the fray.

If Rafale also joins the fray, the IAF would have six fighters, each one with a strong diplomatic backing and equally amazing technological abilities, to choose from.

Full Article >>



Boeing to showcase F-18 at Delhi

Aviation major Boeing will showcase its F-18 jet, which it has offered to the Indian Air Force, at the Defexpo 2006 armaments fair that begins here Tuesday.

The Boeing exhibit at Defexpo will display products and services from its Integrated Defense Systems business unit, including an F-18 flight simulator.

It will also showcase its P-8A multi-mission maritime aircraft, T-45 Goshawk advanced jet trainer and its AH-64D Apache Longbow and CH-47 Chinook helicopters.

"Boeing is interested in India not only as a market, but also as a strategic supplier and partner. We look forward to engaging this week with India's aerospace industry and the public as we look to expand our presence in India." Boeing currently outsources the manufacture of some components for its passenger jets to India's state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

Full Article >>

SAAB Gripen eyes Indian jet fighter order

Swedish fighter jet manufacturer Gripen is agressively pitching itself to bag the estimated $10 billion deal.

"We have 30 years of future to offer to India through our product," Bob Kemp, the company's vice president (international marketing and sales), said Wednesday at the four-day Defexpo that began here Jan 31. But amidst concerns as to whether Washington would allow US firms to make the sale to New Delhi, Gripen has taken the opportunity to showcase its jets - "the true new generation fighters".

"While some of the aircraft offered are outdated and already being phased out in various parts of the world, many are not even sure what they can offer to India," Kemp told IANS.Kemp markets his product as a multi-role easy operational aircraft, which is flexible in terms of manoeuvrability as well as for carrying arms.

"It can even land on a road moving away from high risk bases and can take off within 600 metres in 10 minutes after touching down and arming itself," he said. "It can carry weapons of your choice irrespective of who manufactures them, really simple and yet sophisticated."

Observing that India already has a wide variety in its inventory, Kemp said: "Gripen can offer a perfect force mix to complement the existing IAF (Indian Air Force) Sukhoi fleet."

Gripen has been keenly observing the requirements of the Indian fleet and its problems. "While our fighters operate at least at 50 percent low operational cost than nearest rivals, our contracts would also ensure a steady supply of spares," Kemp asserted.

Full Article >>

Considering the competition ... the Gripen is surely a long shot. In addition, since the DRDO constantly keeps harping that the Tejas is much more advnaced than the Gripen, the Gripen's MRCA prospects may no find too many supporters at the MoD.

Britain seeks Indian investment in defence

NEW DELHI: Britain on Wednesday sought Indian investment in its defence industry and said it was engaged in negotiations for transferring up to eight second-hand Sea Harrier jets to the Indian Navy.

Lord Drayson, Britain's minister for defence procurement, said his country was keen on forging collaborations and joint ventures with Indian firms working in cutting edge IT and software to fulfil the long-term needs of the British armed forces.

"There is a market potential running into millions of pounds (under Britain's Defence Industrial Strategy)," Drayson told a news conference at the Defexpo 2006 arms fair that is being attended by the world's largest armaments firms.

"Indian industries are currently taking a small proportion of the market," he said, adding there was scope for Indian firms to leverage their "strategic strengths" in IT and software to develop affordable hi-tech weapons for the British military.

Full Article >>

Thales group to set up avionics, software units in India

Thales, a leading European group dealing in avionics, civil and military equipment, Tuesday announced their plan to set up two units for software development and avionics maintenance and solution in India.

Thales country director (India) Francois Dupont said the company was working out the logistics to set up a software development plant in Chennai, under the banner of Thales International India Ltd, by June this year.The electronics and systems group was also setting up an avionics service and maintenance unit in Delhi's satellite town Gurgaon, Dupont told reporters at the 4th Defexpo here.Thales executive-vice president Jean-Paul Perrier said the plan was to recruit more than 1,000 people in the Chennai unit by the end of 2007.

The company proposes to work in close association with the Indian Navy, which has acquired six Scorpene submarines from it. It has also crafted the ticketing system for the Delhi and Kolkata metros services."While we are looking forward to tie-ups with more companies, we would also like to work more closely with the Indian defence establishment," Perrier said. The company already has its presence in the Indian defence forces, supplying, radars, avionics, communication, cameras and other equipment to the air force, army and navy.

Full Article >>


[edit on 1-2-2006 by Stealth Spy]