Indian Air Force : News, Pics and Discussion thread

India is seriously considering United Kingdom's offer of eight second-hand Royal Navy BAE Systems Sea Harrier for utilising them as training aircraft, a leading Defence Weekly has claimed.

"We initiated the offer to acquire the Sea Harriers after we came to know that the Royal Navy was pulling them out of service. We hope to get a good deal," Rear Admiral Sunil Damle, Indian Assistant Chief of Naval Staff, said. The deal for the Sea Harriers was likely to be signed in fiscal year 2006-07, the report said, quoting Indian defence ministry sources.

Quoting official sources, the report said that the fighters' AIM-120 AMRAAM (Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile) capability would be removed before the aircraft are handed over to the Indian Navy.

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So, surely they are FRS.2 standard. But its sad that they are removing the Aim-120 firing ability. Wonder if these will get Israeli Derby BVRAAM's as well (like the older sea harriers).

Yes, that would make it certain that they are FRS 2 aircraft as the earlier version never had this capability.

France to offer Rafale figher in place of Mirage

French President Jacques Chirac is expected to formally withdraw the Mirage 2000-5 for India's MRCA competition and replace it with the Rafale when he makes an official visit Feb. 19.

The Rafale, France feels, would be a more a suitable contender: it is much more capable, though considerably costlier.

When air chief SP Tyagi visited Paris last June, he was given the opportunity to take a spin in a Rafale C-variant twin-seater at the Paris Air Show in Le Bourget. In fact, even the Naval Chief Admiral Arun Prakash flew in a Rafale-M carrier variant, when he was Western Naval commander, early in 2004.

France’s offer, like the other countries contending for the massive deal, would include the licensed manufacture of Rafales at HAL’s facilities.

The defence delegation accompanying the french president, led by defence minister Michele Alliot-Marie, is expected to inform the South Block that upgrading infrastructure for the Rafale will not be an expensive proposition since it takes much from the Mirage family itself.

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So finally its confirmed. This would IMHO confirm the participation of the Eurofighter as well. The Mirage-2000 clearly stood no chance against the conpetition. The Rafale does. Way to go!

Any thought on the last statement, 'cause I find that hard to believe

Also, i wonder is the seeding up of the Rafale's AESA radar (more info >> ) has anything to do with this tender since most other MRCA participants are offering AESA radars. In addition France looks pretty desperate for a Rafale customer and it might not seem strange to see it not leaving any stone unturned in its endevour.

[edit on 17-2-2006 by Stealth Spy]

When asking for thoughts on the last statement, do you mean the bit where it refers to the Rafale taking much from the Mirage?

I too think this must be wrong as the whole point of the Rafale was that it was a new design. Otherwise the Mirage 4000 could have been put into production over a decade sooner.

edit, why do mistakes appear in my posts after I've posted them that weren't there when I typed them, allegedly

[edit on 17-2-2006 by waynos]

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India has opened competitions for anti-submarine warfare (ASW) helicopters and long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft and is expected by April to issue a highly anticipated tender for next-generation fighters.

Industry sources say the Indian navy is seeking proposals by mid-March for eight maritime reconnaissance aircraft, but that the service has rejected a US government proposal to lease two Lockheed Martin P-3 Orions as an interim solution. The navy has also set a March deadline to receive bids for 16 ASW helicopters, plus eight options, but the manufacturers that were handed the tender – AgustaWestland, Eurocopter, Kamov and Sikorsky – are asking for an extension.

The maritime reconnaissance tender is believed to have been forwarded to BAE Systems, Boeing, EADS, Ilyushin and Lockheed. The latter had hoped to gain an inside track through a December 2005 US Navy offer to lease two P-3s, but this was rejected by New Delhi last month. However, Lockheed still appears well positioned, as Boeing will not be ready with its 737-based P-8A Multi-mission Maritime Aircraft until about 2012.

It sure will be interesting how the latest Nimrods fare against the P-8MMA's

Tupolev Tu-142 and Westland Sea King replacements are just two of a long list of new aircraft requirements drafted by New Delhi, and manufacturers have complained that it has yet to release a priority list. A contract for almost 200 multi-role army helicopters is expected to be concluded first, but the selection of the Bell 407 or Eurocopter AS550 has already been delayed

from late 2005 until at least mid-2006.

Darn Delays. I'll go for the Eurocopter anyday

Fighter manufacturers also have been waiting several months to receive a tender for 126 new aircraft. However, industry sources say the inclusion of the additional aircraft types, plus uncertainty over how to measure an expected requirement for 30% direct offsets and 90% technology transfer, could extend the evaluation period until 2007 or even 2008.

India, meanwhile, has also announced its intention to pursue an almost $890 million upgrade to its existing air force fleet of MiG-29s with Russia’s RSK MiG.

Darn to delays. Interesting that its specifically 90% tech transfer. Should have been 100% if you ask me. However considering that the Rafale, Eurofighter and other Russian/American companies are throwing in AESA radars (compulsory to participate accoring to Russian source ), supercruise engines, 3D Thrust Vectoring and nex gen avionics and weapons - i guess 90% is more than one can ask for outright tech transfer.


[edit on 17-2-2006 by Stealth Spy]

BAE Systems bidding for the maritime recconaissance requirement? Does this mean the Nimrod

I don't know what your views are on that but it would look seriously cool in Indian colours

Originally posted by waynos
BAE Systems bidding for the maritime recconaissance requirement? Does this mean the Nimrod

I don't know what your views are on that but it would look seriously cool in Indian colours

Very cool indeed

Is the Nimrod in service with any other airforce other than the RAF ?

@waynos : Also(pardon me if i am wrong) - but i stumbled upon this - there's a nuke on display in the state/county (?) that you've included lext to your "Location : " >> link

[edit on 17-2-2006 by Stealth Spy]

VISAKHAPATNAM: Russia and India were designing a unique interceptor fighter of the fifth generation, Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of the Russian Federation, Vyacheslav I. Trubnikov, said in an exclusive interview to The Hindu on Tuesday.

The Russian ambassador was here on an invitation from the Navy to witness the President's Fleet Review (PFR) from February 11 to 13. Describing President A.P.J. Kalam as the "Father" of the Brahmos missile, he said India and Russia had now reached an agreement for designing, producing and also marketing the product. "It is a brilliant example of international cooperation. Starting from design, it is something new. It goes beyond the relationship of a buyer and seller. It is a mutual effort everywhere," he said.

While the Russian Ambassador was satisfied with military cooperation, he called for stronger ties in the spheres of hi-tech, information technology, biotechnology and nano technology. He said India was now a different country compared to about 15 years ago.

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Impressive. Good to see that India is involved as well. However i wonder where this will leave the proposed MCA.

News on the BrahMos missile :
Buyers make a beeline even before BrahMos induction

MUMBAI, FEBRUARY 16: Ten countries, including two from South America and two from the Far East, have evinced interest in the purchase of BrahMos, India’s first supersonic cruise missile.

‘‘This weapon is the only supersonic precision missile with a range of 290 km and a multiple launch platform capacity. For this reason several countries have shown interest in it,’’ said Dr A Sivathanu Pillai, Chief Controller (Research and Development), Defence Research and Development Organisation and Managing Director of the joint venture between India and Russia, BrahMos Aerospace. He, however, refused to divulge the names of the countries.

The hardware and software systems for BrahMos is being developed by 20 firms from India and seven from Russia. The assembling would take place in Hyderabad and every month one missile would be inducted in the Indian Navy, he said.

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Wonder if the BrahMos can play a role in the 30% offset clause as well.


[edit on 17-2-2006 by Stealth Spy]

Originally posted by Stealth Spy

Is the Nimrod in service with any other airforce other than the RAF ?

@waynos : Also(pardon me if i am wrong) - but i stumbled upon this - there's a nuke on display in the state/county (?) that you've included lext to your "Location : " >> link

[edit on 17-2-2006 by Stealth Spy]

Wow, thanks for that stealth spy Elvington museum is less than an hours drive from here yet I hadn't heard about that at all.

In answer to your second question no, the Nimrod is only operated by the RAF, so that would make India the worlds second country to operate a jet maritime patrol aircraft, do you think they'd like the kudos of beating America or will they play safe and buy the P-3?

Originally posted by waynos

In answer to your second question no, the Nimrod is only operated by the RAF, so that would make India the worlds second country to operate a jet maritime patrol aircraft, do you think they'd like the kudos of beating America or will they play safe and buy the P-3?

No, Indonesia has been operating modified Boeing 737s since flares were first in fashion. Nimrod is the first/only FOUR-jet maritime patrol aircraft.

Yes, they're the ones with little humps either side of the fin aren't they. Id forgotten about them * cough* I mean they don't count

edit; I wrote 'their'! retard.



[edit on 17-2-2006 by waynos]

Also, various sub-varients of the Badger, Blinder and Backfire have been employed in a "maritime recon" mission - not quite the sub-hunting of Nimrod but generally speaking, jet maritime patrol aircraft.

Could I get away with the phrase 'purpose designed' then or will somebody sling the S-3 Viking back at me?

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
LOL ... Chinese destroyer spooked

It wasn't spooked.

Just my thoughts, but I feel the way things are told about the Mirage/Rafale offer is not comprehensive. Reading the article, "France" decides which plane to offer, and which production line to close when it becomes too costly to maintain. I honestly doubt the decision is France's, while in good logic it should be Dassault's because, as an industrial, it produces the planes, and has to maintain a production line, which costs are not supported by the country but by itself as a private firm. As I wrote in another post (maybe the same thread though) France, unlike the USA, will not order a few planes from time to time to help keep the prodcution line open and wait for the next export order. So it's up to the industrial to decide.
That said I don't mean to neglect the "sales" part assumed by France with the usual political lobbying that comes with arms deals, but I just felt that stating that France was the one to decide what to offer was deeply wrong. Dassault is a rich company and it will do its best to make money, as long as this strategy has its place within France's views then Dassault will make combat aircraft, otherwise it will expand the Falcon line and move on to other projects. That may be stlighty overdoing it, but I think this is what India fails to understand. If they really wanted Mirages then they could have had them for a long time, sparing themselves all the hassle of the RFI / RFP process, because at the time when the discussions started, Dassault was eager to sell Mirages and the Rafale was not considered a short-term export candidate.
Then to be honest, I think that if both the Mirage and the Rafale (just speaking about French a/c but the same applies to the widening list of candidates), which are considerably different aircraft, can be considered for proposal in a still to be opened competition, then it shows a lack of reflexion from the potential customer.

NEW DELHI, FEB 20 (PTI)
Hindustan Aeronautics is preparing to install new indigenous avionics in the British Hawk Advance Jet Trainer in a major move to modernise the aircraft which are in the process of being inducted into the Indian Air Force.

"Customer-specific avionics equipment for the Hawk MK132 has been supplied by the HAL and has been integrated into the British Aerospace systems Hawk development aircraft ZJ100 to test blend the equipment" according to Dave Corfield, Hawk India programme Director.

Corfield said the major changes in the aircraft involved removing of two existing wing looms and their replacement with new sets of avionics developed by HAL. Besides this, BAe system officials said a number of other critical components of the aircraft, first of which is scheduled to be delivered to IAF by end of 2007 including a new instrumented landing system, a Global Positioning system and an Altitude and Heading Reference system(AHRS), had also been replaced during modification. "Intensive testing in flight of the new equipment would take place over the next few months", BAE officials said.

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I think they have confused the term 'modernising' with 'modifying'. These are after all brand new aircraft that are just entering service, no modernising is needed. However modifying them to incorporate higher local content is perfectly understandable

British Aerospace Systems today said it will commence flight tests of the Indian Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) programme next month.

The company has received customer specific avionics equipment from the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and they have been modified to fit the Hawk MK132, which will be supplied to the Indian Air Force starting 2008, BAe Systems Head of Offshore Logistic, Mike Swales, said. "An intensive in-flight testing of this equipment will continue throughout the first quarter of 2006 focusing on the new systems. And the production of the aircraft will start from 2007," he said.
[..]
Of these 66 aircraft, 24 are being supplied by BAe ready to fly while the rest would be manufactured at HAL under license production.

"Around 300 HAL employees will also be visiting the site over the next two years to receive manufacturing training. This will start in April," the BAe said. There will be some 20 BAE Systems employees based in Bangalore to provide technical on-site assistance to HAL, Swales said. The company would send more than 3,000 tools to HAL's Bangalore facility.

"Four consignments of the equipment have already been delivered to HAL. All tooling and material deliveries will be completed by the end of 2006," he said. In addition to the supply of Hawk aircraft, BAe Systems is also providing India with an interim flying training facility for its pilots in which up to 75 pilots will be trained at RAF Valley in the UK on Hawk over three years.

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Finally it looks as though the prolonged Hawk deal has come into its own.

I wonder if this arrangement might be used as a 'lead in' towards assembly of the Typhoon in India at the same facility once Hawk manufacture is complete? A possible deal clincher?

Chirac takes off, fighter in pocket (what's that supposed to mean

)

French President Jacques Chirac, who is due here tomorrow (he's alredy here ..mind you), is expected to offer the Rafale fighter aircraft for an Indian Air Force order of multi-role combat aircraft that could top $8 billion.

France was in the running in the IAF competition with Dassault Aviation’s Mirage 2000-V but the company is understood to have conveyed to India that it cannot keep its assembly lines running in expectation of the air force order. The Rafale is heavier and more expensive than the Mirage — a variant of which is already operational in the IAF — but it is under production.

Rafale is also a Dassault product and incorporates avionics and systems from, among others, Thales, which last year won the $3.5-billion Scorpene submarine order from the Indian Navy.

The IAF was interested in taking a look at the F-16 with the Active Electronic Scanned Array (AESA) radar which Washington is yet to clear for the manufacturers to present to India. The French are likely to offer the Rafale with the AESA for which Dassault has roped in two companies, Thales and SNECMA.

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Interesting about the ASEA part...its no wonder that AESAing of the RBE2 was speedened.

This also coincieds with Dassault CEO's (Charles Edelstenne) statements :

[...]
Edelstenne said, though he added that Dassault could propose its Rafale range of fighters to the Indian government, once the tender has officially been opened.

Dassault hopes the Rafale fighter will capture 13-15 pct of the market for air force fleet renewals, excluding France, across the world over the next few years, a potential market of some 5,000 planes.

'These past years, our market share has been 13-15 pct. So we think Rafale exports could represent one plane for every seven renewals, or about 350 planes,' Edelstenne said.

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