Billy Meier called the New Nostradamus!?!?

Originally posted by Jim Deardorff
It wouldn't surprise me if the gaudy, ornate style of this class of craft was designed with purpose in mind to look so outrageous in the eyes of skeptics that none would be forced to look into the evidence of its reality if it would threaten their belief systems. I.e., more plausible deniability. Such skeptics don't believe that some aliens could be smarter than we are, and ethical enough to have a strategy, which includes deception, that they would employ in order to remain covert but nevertheless put their presence across to those who can accept the possibility without forcing themeselves upon others.

Again with his "theory" which has the "alien mind" all figured out down to the letter. Jim if you actually believe that Meier is in contact with "aliens", then why are you trying to project your human behaviors on them?

It's becoming your end all excuse to account for serious errors.

Jim, are you ever just going to accept the obvious?

Originally posted by Jim Deardorff
It makes one sick to think that anyone would fall for this alien deception, while remaining silent on every indication of genuineness!

Cripe. I absolutely give up man, youre beyond any hope of rationality.

(I'll try this again!)

Mindsite

Yes, the damning examples you give without a doubt have raised many eyebrows and made the case look like a laughable hoax. Jim Deardorff, however, has explained some of them (but not all) as outright lies. I have found with Meier's supporters that there will always be some excuse or reason to exonerate Billy of any wrongdoing, e.g. the MiB did that, or the photoshop did that, or Kalliope (Billy's wife) was just mean and resentful after her divorce and wanting to make Billy look bad. The list goes on and on. Either its not Billy's fault or else some aspect of the case is in there to create controversy and deliberately give skeptics a reason to throw the entire case out -- part of the reason for that, I understand, is to protect the public from going insane with a story such as this, and also to protect Billy. Here's an example from Deardorff's post above which he describes as the way out, or "plausible deniability":

Originally posted by Jim Deardorff
That can then give the negative skeptic a "way out." I think that technology many thousands of years ahead of ours is capable of achieving this "magic."

I personally don't buy all that, and the most impossible thing for me to accept is Billy's claim that he is the reincarnation of Jesus aka Jmmanuel and Mohammed along with other historical prophets and that he is the one and only true prophet of the New Age. There is no evidence for these claims and no other contactee chooses to have this kind of self-importance.

So, yes Mindsite, I certainly agree that there are many weaknesses to the case which I do not find Meier's followers acknowledging. However, just out of curiosity, is there any aspect of the case and its body of "evidence" that you find plausible?

(mod edit to correct format of quoted text)

[edit on 14-1-2006 by pantha]

JR I wasn't sure about Mr. Deardorff at first. I was willing to see what he had to offer but you're right. He and Horn drink from the same FIGU laced cup of koolaid. Their favorite flavor Illogical and Irrational. mmmmmm.

Originally posted by jritzmann

Originally posted by Jim Deardorff
It wouldn't surprise me if the gaudy, ornate style of this class of craft was designed with purpose in mind to look so outrageous in the eyes of skeptics that none would be forced to look into the evidence of its reality if it would threaten their belief systems. I.e., more plausible deniability. Such skeptics don't believe that some aliens could be smarter than we are, and ethical enough to have a strategy, which includes deception, that they would employ in order to remain covert but nevertheless put their presence across to those who can accept the possibility without forcing themeselves upon others.

Again with his "theory" which has the "alien mind" all figured out down to the letter. Jim if you actually believe that Meier is in contact with "aliens", then why are you trying to project your human behaviors on them?

Of course I don't have it all figured out, Jeff. But there's no reason we can't draw reasonable conclusions from the data they do supply us with. My conclusion above is consistent with their being smarter than we are. Is that so difficult to accept?

Here's a recent post from Stanton Friedman on another list (UFO Updates), in which he implores that we recognize how ignorant we are in comparison wiith aliens far advanced over us. This recognition shouldn't stop us from deducing what's obvious after we've shucked off some of our hubris.

Posted by Friedman on UFO Updates 1/12/06
Without passing judgement on the drug issues, I, for one, would
be absolutely astonished if all there was to UFOs were nuts and
bolts spacecraft and their pilots.

I would expect all advancd societies to study biology and learn
about aging and control both it and reproduction.

I would expect knowledge of the world of the mind and the soul,
reincarnation, and other areas which we still consider
paranormal.

Many of the technological activities we consider normal today
would certainly have been labelled paranormal and impossible a
mere 150 years ago.

Think of DNA and microcircuitts, and wireless, the internet and
satellites observing the weather and spying on other societies,
and cloning etc etc etc.

None of this means necessarily other dimensions or parallel
universes.

Primarily what is required is recognition that, despite the
advances, we have made we are _ignorant_.

The biggest obstacle to acceptance of flying saucer reality and
the Cosmic Watergate, is not the lack of data - there is plenty -
but arrogance and ignorance on the part of the ancient academics
and fossilized physicists of the world unwilling to admit they
don't know it all. They assume that if flying saucers were real,
they would know about them. They don't, so saucers aren't real.

Stan Friedman

This applies to us who are aware of the reality of the UFO phenomenon as well as those who aren't. We can't assume that, having observed us for decades or millennia, the aliens of the Meier case aren't also fully aware of human psychology.

Originally posted by vogelfire
(I'll try this again!)

Mindsite

... the most impossible thing for me to accept is Billy's claim that he is the reincarnation of Jesus aka Jmmanuel and Mohammed along with other historical prophets and that he is the one and only true prophet of the New Age. There is no evidence for these claims and no other contactee chooses to have this kind of self-importance....

You should be aware that Meier doesn't proclaim this of himself. And when forced to respond on it, he has vehemently denied being a reincarnation of "Jesus", which he doesn't equate with Jmmanuel because of all the false teachings that the Gospels give to "Jesus", including the false name. But otherwise, his Contact Reports and the Talmud of Jmmanuel itself imply that he is an incarnation of Jmmanuel. We all know, however, that this is not anything one can prove one way or another. So of course you don't have to accept it.

Jim
Then is it more accurate to say that Billy's followers believe him to be the seventh incarnation of the spirit "Nokodemjon" who has previously incarnated as "Jesus aka Jmmanuel?" I believe so.

Isn't it also true that "Jmmanuel" is the same man who was crucified and "survived" the cross --a story traditionally attributed to "Jesus" -- and then went on to live a long life elsewhere? I believe so. Some folks here may not realize this.

You also probably realize that the only "evidence" for this prophetic lineage is the alleged ancient parchment (listing the seven names, "BILLI" being the last) that an Englishman found on the Egyptian black market, a parchment that FIGU has never actually seen nor tested by way of carbon dating, e.g. and consequently has no real proof of its existence or authenticity. In reviewing the "parchment story" in the FIGU archives, there are at least three different versions of it, yet FIGU members have confidently stated things like "We know Billy has had seven incarnations, and we know he is the only true prophet of the New Age." It's that kind of uninformed conviction that I have real difficulty with and feeds what too many people consider a "cult mentality." And you are absolutely correct. I do not have to accept this or this kind of thinking.

thanks Jim Deardorff and vogelfire, for responding to my fraud post.

The other reasons I think this is fraud is because his spaceships look like the effects in old cheezy space movies and far far worse than even the early star wars. They look so ridiculous and unnatural in style and development, that I just can't imagine these things flying millions of miles through space.

look at these... www.iigwest.com...

"These are the photos I used to see mixed in with ones that looked plausible, that would give me doughts. And it seems most of the photos are all coming from billy, I was releived when I first looked him up that I new what they were all about. They look so un-aerodynamic it's ridiculous, with the box type shapes and you can clearly tell he re-uses the same few models for pics too. And the round balls around the sides lol, is this supposed to be for ufo style, looks like a lil kid would invent for arts and crafts period. plus all his pictures I'v seen are taken by the same people, suspicious, yes.


5. Meier said that a new disease and epidemic would then appear and SARS did just that." whooah what a prediction. Can I say "in the future many will die in an even that will come by shock and surprise" and now be called a prophet. I think alot of predictions can be made from common sense, and seem astonishing, to people that don't have that.

Regardless of that I read some stuff that raised my brow. I can't say he's fake for sure, some of his predictions if true where quite remarkable. but it really doesn't make sense and seems like an illaborate attempt to become a cult member, or spectacle for money.

I'm still convinced he's deffinitly fake. I beleive most stuff too when it comes to abductions and ufo vids.

Originally posted by vogelfire
Jim
Then is it more accurate to say that Billy's followers believe him to be the seventh incarnation of the spirit "Nokodemjon" who has previously incarnated as "Jesus aka Jmmanuel?" I believe so.

I think that's about it, though I haven't kept track of the literature of incarnations going back that far. However, this might only deal with important incarnations. He might have had some intervening incarnations with more humdrum lives or lives cut short by early death.

Isn't it also true that "Jmmanuel" is the same man who was crucified and "survived" the cross --a story traditionally attributed to "Jesus" -- and then went on to live a long life elsewhere? I believe so. Some folks here may not realize this....

Thanks for pointing that out. I keep forgetting that some on this list aren't aware of the Talmud of Jmmanuel and its implications, or that Jmmanuel is simply a strange representation of Immanuel.

Originally posted by Jim Deardorff

Originally posted by vogelfire
(I'll try this again!)

Mindsite

... the most impossible thing for me to accept is Billy's claim that he is the reincarnation of Jesus aka Jmmanuel and Mohammed along with other historical prophets and that he is the one and only true prophet of the New Age. There is no evidence for these claims and no other contactee chooses to have this kind of self-importance....

You should be aware that Meier doesn't proclaim this of himself. And when forced to respond on it, he has vehemently denied being a reincarnation of "Jesus", which he doesn't equate with Jmmanuel because of all the false teachings that the Gospels give to "Jesus", including the false name. But otherwise, his Contact Reports and the Talmud of Jmmanuel itself imply that he is an incarnation of Jmmanuel. We all know, however, that this is not anything one can prove one way or another. So of course you don't have to accept it.

Right, Meier doesn't say "follow me" because of any of this. He simply presents information and people can accept it or reject it. There is no cult, other than the individual weaknesses of some people who might idolize Meier or have some kind of "hero worship" towards him--but Meier has denounced all of this and simply states that all human beings are equal. The only difference is that some may be spiritual older or spiritually younger.

Originally posted by longhaircowboy
He and Horn drink from the same FIGU laced cup of koolaid. Their favorite flavor

Question for the moderators--is this not a childish type of insult? What's the difference between attacking people like this and name-calling? They're both insults? I really have to question the policies around here. Definitely seems to be a lack of fairness.

Get out your dictionary and look up insult. What I wrote was hardly name calling. That was an opinion. You got yours and I got mine.
I prefer not to use insults but I'm not afraid to express my opinions. Look at the ATS guidelines and then maybe you can understand what goes on here instead of asking for the Mods guidance. Trust me if some one gets outta line here they will do their thing. I've seen it in many other threads.

[edit on 1/14/06 by longhaircowboy]

Originally posted by Iseekthetruth

Originally posted by Jim Deardorff

Originally posted by vogelfire
(I'll try this again!)

Mindsite

... the most impossible thing for me to accept is Billy's claim that he is the reincarnation of Jesus aka Jmmanuel and Mohammed along with other historical prophets and that he is the one and only true prophet of the New Age. There is no evidence for these claims and no other contactee chooses to have this kind of self-importance....

You should be aware that Meier doesn't proclaim this of himself. And when forced to respond on it, he has vehemently denied being a reincarnation of "Jesus", which he doesn't equate with Jmmanuel because of all the false teachings that the Gospels give to "Jesus", including the false name. But otherwise, his Contact Reports and the Talmud of Jmmanuel itself imply that he is an incarnation of Jmmanuel. We all know, however, that this is not anything one can prove one way or another. So of course you don't have to accept it.

Right, Meier doesn't say "follow me" because of any of this. He simply presents information and people can accept it or reject it. There is no cult, other than the individual weaknesses of some people who might idolize Meier or have some kind of "hero worship" towards him--but Meier has denounced all of this and simply states that all human beings are equal. The only difference is that some may be spiritual older or spiritually younger.

To clarify, no Billy doesn't say he's the reincarnation of "Jesus" because he claims that Jesus never existed, but rather the man known as Jmmanuel. And yes, while he may not literally say "follow me" he does say of other people who claim to have had contacts that they are "liars, frauds, charlatans, and schizophrenics." He is the exception, in other words, easily luring a following of "Meierites" perceived to be a cult, "a system of beliefs and its body of adherents with great devotion to a person, idea or thing." (Webster's Dictionary) So, it strikes me that not actually saying "follow me" is splitting semantic hairs.

EDIT: Here's something I just found from Dr. Michael Salla:

"'Meierism' is a belief that Meier is both a genuine
contactee (something I and TerraX would agree with) AND a prophet who
has reincarnated to teach once more the truths of his earlier
incarnations as Moses, Jesus(Jmmanuel) Mohammed, etc. Thus Meierism is
very much a 'quasi-religious movement' or 'cult' based on the twin
beliefs of Meier being a contactee AND a prophet."



[edit on 14-1-2006 by vogelfire]

Originally posted by Mindsite

...The other reasons I think this is fraud is because his spaceships look like the effects in old cheezy space movies and far far worse than even the early star wars. They look so ridiculous and unnatural in style and development, that I just can't imagine these things flying millions of miles through space.

Mindsite, one very important thing that is being omitted from this entire discussion of photographs is the witness testimony. Many people, children included, saw the ships when they first started appearing in 1975, and they have reported what they saw. I personally find their stories compelling, and you will note that their reports do not include seeing the one-armed farmer shooting models on a tether!

www.tjresearch.info...
www.tjresearch.info...

Originally posted by vogelfire

Originally posted by Mindsite

...The other reasons I think this is fraud is because his spaceships look like the effects in old cheezy space movies and far far worse than even the early star wars. They look so ridiculous and unnatural in style and development, that I just can't imagine these things flying millions of miles through space.

Mindsite, one very important thing that is being omitted from this entire discussion of photographs is the witness testimony. Many people, children included, saw the ships when they first started appearing in 1975, and they have reported what they saw. I personally find their stories compelling, and you will note that their reports do not include seeing the one-armed farmer shooting models on a tether!

www.tjresearch.info...
www.tjresearch.info...

One thing to keep in kind there is where they were, who they were with and why they were there. I have seen people in Gulf Breeze FLA during the late 80's swear that a plane was a alien craft. I have literally watched an entire skywatch group trying to signal a C-140 flying into Pensacola thinking they were talking in flashes to aliens. I was called out to a rural area here in MD at 3am for a woman whom swore to me on the phone she'd been watching 2 discs signaling eachtother for 3 hours out her back door....radio tower signal lights. (And she'd lived there for 6 years)

Atmosphere, and prior preconcieved notions play a HUGE part. I'm certainly not saying they didnt see something, but exactly what was seen is highly subjective. A couple of the accounts sound like satellites and fireworks.

Vogelfire- that eyewitness site isn't too convincing....they saw disks, they saw lights. I mean there's nothing specific there. Just vague recollections. Heck they don't even describe anything Meier saw or photographed. And footprints. Ok so now we got the prophet, the ufo and bigfoot. If they were a bit more descripitive in their accounts it might help. Then we'd have something to have a look at. And a humming noise. Yeah my puter hums when I start it up. Sorry it's just not conclusive enough for me.

Hello.

I sincerely hope that this posting does not throw more fuel onto the fire, but there are a few issues I hope to clarify. Also, please forgive me for the length of this posting.

First, I would like to introduce myself to those who may not recognize my name. My name is Derek Bartholomaus and I am a member of the Independent Investigations Group Steering Committee and I am the Lead Investigator into the claims of Billy Meier and Michael Horn.

Several days ago Jeff Ritzmann informed me about this thread and it has taken me all of that time to catch up on everything written. It has been a fascinating read. I tend not to do too many postings on forums because I do not wish to engage in arguments of circular logic. The types of which have already been demonstrated on this thread. There are some points regarding the case, and specifically the IIG's involvement in it that I would like to address.

The first thing is the issue of calling something a hoax.

The only people that can legitimately ever call an event a hoax are the people actually involved in the event. We can all have suspicions of an event being a hoax, but any good investigator, paranormal or otherwise, should NEVER call an event a hoax. For example, many people had suspicions that the Patterson Bigfoot film was a hoax, but it wasn't until one or two years ago when the person actually wearing the costume came forward and admitted his role in the film was the footage able to be officially declared a hoax. Until Billy Meier himself comes forward and declares that his claims over the years have been fabricated we should never call the the case a hoax. Personally, I have very strong suspicions that it is a hoax, but even if all of the physical examination points to the case being a hoax it is still not appropriate to call it a hoax until Billy Meier tells us that it is a hoax. I find it unlikely that he will do this.

This leads directly into one of Michael Horn's misleading claims. He claims that when James Randi wrote "I never claimed it was a hoax" that meant that James Randi declared the events to be what Billy Meier, and by extension Michael Horn, claimed them to be. That is simply not true. Randi simply stated truthfully that he personally had never called the events a hoax. There is a very long distance to travel between not calling something a hoax and saying that it is in fact what the claimant claims the event to be.

Unfortunately this issue also leads into the biggest disappointment the IIG has with the case. An employee of the Center for Inquiry-West told Michael Horn during an informal meeting several years ago that the Billy Meier photos and 8mm movies were "an easily duplicatable hoax." This individual never should have said this. This meeting took place 1-2 years before the IIG was founded. It wasn't until the first year of the IIG's existence that we even learned of this conversation, and we learned about it from listening to the Coast to Coast radio show with Art Bell. The CFI-West employee never told the IIG of his repeated correspondence with Michael Horn, and he kept no written records of his phone calls or email correspondence. Because of this, and other unfortunate situations, that employee has been removed from any contact with claimants at CFI-West and the IIG. Once the IIG learned about this situation we did what we could to lessen the damage done to CFI-West's reputation by this employee and also to try to acquire evidence from Michael Horn for testing of his claims.

I would like to point out at this time that neither Billy Meier nor Michael Horn has ever filed an application for the IIG $10,000 Paranormal Challenge nor for the JREF $1 Million Paranormal Challenge. I think it is important to mention this because Michael Horn has claimed several times that Billy Meier has won the challenges, but before anyone can win the challenges they must actually apply for the challenges. No application related to the claims of Billy Meier has ever been filed as it relates to the Paranormal Challenges.

Now, on to the photographs.

Michael Horn likes to repeatedly state that the IIG has not submitted our, admittedly non-UFO, photographs to the same testing that the Meier photographs were. There is a very simple explanation for this. The "PhotoAnalysis3.pdf" document on Michael Horn's webpage is a copy of Wendelle Stevens' and Jim Dilettoso's photo analysis reports. The primary thing that these, and other reports touted by Michael Horn, claim to show is that there was no evidence of double-exposures, optical-printing, cutouts, paste-ups, etc. Mr. Horn then goes on to say that these reports prove that the photos taken by Billy Meier are "real" photos.

If by "real" photos Mr. Horn means that the photo examined is an original and unaltered photo then we would tend to agree with him. However, very few people state that the image in the photograph represents an extraterrestrial flying craft. The IIG has never claimed that the photos presented by Billy Meier are double-exposures or some other form of laboratory manipulation. There are many people out there that do claim there is evidence that shows that the photographs were manipulated, but the IIG has not.

As it has been stated repeatedly, there are no original Billy Meier photographs available for examination. The reasons for this vary, but ultimately it doesn't matter because there is nothing to examine. The tests described by Mr. Stevens and Mr. Dilettoso raise some questions as to their usefulness. In addition to the tests searching for evidence of photographic manipulation (which would not be present if the photographs were created by a single-exposure using forced perspective) they describe tests that purport to reveal the size of the object by analyzing the grey scale, color shift, and the amount of blurring. The IIG has asked a forensic photography expert to analyze the analysis done by Stevens and Dilletoso and once a final report is completed the IIG will publish it on our website at www.iigwest.com. When asked if such an examination could be possible to determine the size of an object in a photograph he said that in theory it could, but that it could only be done in a controlled laboratory setting using a solid color background of which the color value is known and that the procedure was highly unlikely to achieve correct results in an uncontrolled outdoor setting where the color values were not solid and measurably known. Later this year the IIG will hopefully receive a final report from this forensic photography expert and his findings can be discussed in more detail at that time.

The IIG's "UFO" photos were all created with a single-exposure of a landscape with a "ufo" in the image and there was no laboratory or digital manipulation of the image of any kind. The "ufo" in the photos taken by James Underdown, Executive Director of the Center for Inquiry-West, was a Mr. Coffee coffee pot lid held on a fishing line hanging from a pole. Because we are tired of the circular logic demonstrated by Michael Horn and others the IIG has decided to allow anyone to download the high-resolution photographic images and run them through any test that they want. These are all 600 dpi scans and our photos are higher quality than anything ever released by Billy Meier, Michael Horn, or Steelmark.

Here are the viewing instructions:

Go to: www.iigwest.com...
Type in the username: meier
Type in the password: meier

This will take you to a page listing three folders: "Good James Underdown UFO Photos" contains images of "UFOs" that show no signs of how the shot was done. "Not Good or Setup James Underdown UFO Photos" contains images where you can see the pole or the person holding the pole and the images showing how the shots were done. "Photoshop Filtered Images" contains images that have been manipulated using various Photoshop filters. I noticed in reading the UFO Analysis document produced by Michael Horn that some of the tests described had the same name as some Photoshop filter effects. I decided to apply the filter effects to an image and see what happened. What happened is that the IIG photos showed the same visual characteristics as the Billy Meier photos run through the same test.

Feel free to download as many of these images as you want and run them through any test that you want. Keep in mind that these are really large files. They range from 5 MB to 20 MB. Also keep in mind that these images are of better quality than any images ever released of any Meier photographs. Another thing. I am telling you that the object in the picture is a small object held by a fishing line. See if you can find the fishing line. I do not believe that you will no matter what tests you run the photos through. Now, using the assumption that Horn and others use when discussing the Meier photographs, if you cannot see the thread it must therefore not be a small object and must therefore be an extraterrestrial spacecraft. It is these leaps of logic that cause so much to be misinterpreted regarding the Billy Meier case.

A few words about the audio recording.

Michael Horn routinely says that he has an mp3 file of a "beamship" sound that was recorded on an audio cassette tape that anyone can download for free to analyze and see if they can explain the inaudible wavelengths that were claimed to be discovered when playing the sound through an oscilloscope. The first thing to note about this is that even if the original audio file contained inaudible frequencies of an unusual nature they would no longer be present in the mp3 file. When converting an uncompressed audio file into a compressed mp3 file ALL inaudible information is deleted. It is this deletion of inaudible material that allows the mp3 file to have a smaller file size than an uncompressed audio file. Basically, performing any tests on the mp3 file is useless because the special nature of what is claimed to be on the audio recording no longer exists in the mp3 file.

As has been mentioned earlier in this thread it is actually impossible for the original recording equipment to even record the frequencies claimed to be a part of the audio recording. The audio was not recorded using professional audio recording equipment that has a wider frequency response range. The audio was recorded with a consumer audio cassette recorder. Audio cassette recorders manufactured today only have a frequency range of 30 Hz to 16 KHz. Here is a link to the technical specifications for a modern JVC audio cassette deck:
reviews.cnet.com...
This deck is also for a stereo system component. It is more likely that the audio recorder used was similar in nature to this portable audio cassette recorder from Sony:
www.mineroff.com...
This portable audio cassette recorder only has a frequency range of 90 Hz to 12 KHz.
It is safe to assume that audio cassette decks manufactured over twenty years ago had a narrower range of frequencies that could be recorded than audio cassette decks manufactured today.

A brief discussion about the prophecies of Billy Meier.

The primary discussions about Billy Meier today concern his "prophecies" he claims are told to him from the Plejarans. As Ike42 has detailed, the information that Meier predicted had in fact been published prior to Meier's publishing. Horn routinely states that if just one of Meier's photos is proven to be of an extraterrestrial spacecraft then all of Meier's other claims must therefore be true. Well, using that form of logic, if just one of Meier's prophecies is proven to be a retelling of information previously published in another venue then all of Meier's prophecies must therefore be false. More than one, in fact many, of Meier's prophecies have been proven to have come from previously published material. Mr. Horn says that the skeptics have to prove that Meier read these previous publications in order for Meier's prophecies to be false. This is simply untrue. It cannot be a prophecy if the information is available prior to the prophecy being made. That is not prophecy. That is simply a retelling of information. Ike42 only examined a small portion of Billy Meier's predictions. I have been in contact with Ike42 and he is planning to examine other Meier predictions. When his follow-up report is completed it will be made available on the IIG website.

And finally I want to discuss the alleged sample of extraterrestrial metal alloy.

As others have previously stated no matter how brilliant Marcel Vogel may have been he was not a metallurgist. He was a chemist. And as far as I know no metallurgist has ever examined a piece of the metal that Billy Meier has described as being of manufactured extraterrestrial origin. At one point Michael Horn mentioned the metal alloy during his emails with the IIG and JREF. This is the ONLY piece of evidence that is testable for either Paranormal Challenge. The photographs, sound recordings, and prophecies are all ineligible for a variety of reasons, some of which I have stated above. However, it is very easy to test a piece of metal for evidence of extraterrestrial manufacturing origin. Just to be clear, if the metal were proven to be of extraterrestrial origin that would not be enough. There are several pieces of extraterrestrial metal that fall to Earth every year. These arrive in the form of meteorites. This is a natural occurrence. None of these pieces of extraterrestrial metal show any signs of being manufactured. If Billy Meier's metal were to show evidence of extraterrestrial manufacturing then he would win the Paranormal Challenges. Originally, Michael Horn said that he had access to the metal. Then when the IIG and JREF said that this would be acceptable for the Paranormal Challenges he said that he did not have access to the metal and that it had disappeared and that the report by chemist Marcel Vogel would have to suffice. It doesn't suffice. In order for a claim to be tested the evidence for that claim has to be tested.

This is the biggest problem with the Billy Meier case. All of the evidence is circumstantial. There is no hard evidence to examine. If this was a court case and Billy Meier was the prosecution the case would be dismissed due to a lack of evidence. That does not mean that the case would be proven to be a hoax, only that there is not enough evidence for Billy Meier to prove his case.

Remember, Billy Meier, and Michael Horn, are the claimants. They are the people making extraordinary claims. Therefore they are the people that need to provide extraordinary evidence to prove their claims. They have repeatedly shown that they are either unable or unwilling to provide such evidence. Michael Horn, and by extension Billy Meier, are reduced to arguments based on logical fallacies and ad hominem attacks against those that simply ask them to provide the evidence necessary to prove their claims.

As skeptics we are the ones with the open minds. Our minds are shaped by the quality of the evidence provided. I might personally believe that Billy Meier is not in contact with extraterrestrials, but if provided with sufficient evidence showing that Billy Meier is in contact with extraterrestrials then my thoughts would have to change.

Thank you.

Derek Bartholomaus
Independent Investigations Group
Steering Committee

P.S. Centrist, you had mentioned about discovering that Billy Meier gave Marcel Vogel a monazite crystal and not a piece of metal. I had not heard this before. Can you please direct me to where you discovered this? Thanks.

Excellent post

This post should be made required reading for anyone interested in this particular topic.

Welcome aboard derek. While I tend to agree with the majority of your post I have a problem with your reference to the Patterson film. Why would you want to hinge your reference to a hoax on the word of someone who can't produce the suit he wore or any witnesses willing to come forward(other than to say that he walks like Bigfoot). I agree with you that we should not call Meier an outright hoax. That would imply a will to defraud. I have stated many of the things in your post here myself. Meier may truly believe what he says. That's not a hoax.
He may be a liar or a fraud but I'm not convinced by the eyewitnesses.
The IIG photos were very good but Jeffs were better.
Oh and I'll say it again....Stevens is no photo expert and Dillettoso is well maybe.

Originally posted by derekcbart


...And finally I want to discuss the alleged sample of extraterrestrial metal.

As others have previously stated no matter how brilliant Marcel Vogel may have been he was not a metallurgist. He was a chemist. And as far as I know no metallurgist has ever examined a piece of the metal that Billy Meier has described as being of manufactured extraterrestrial origin. At one point Michael Horn mentioned the metal alloy during his emails with the IIG and JREF.
Just to be clear, if the metal were proven to be of extraterrestrial origin that would not be enough. There are several pieces of extraterrestrial metal that fall to Earth every year. These arrive in the form of meteorites. This is a natural occurrence. None of these pieces of extraterrestrial metal show any signs of being manufactured. If Billy Meier's metal were to show evidence of extraterrestrial manufacturing then he would win the Paranormal Challenges. Originally, Michael Horn said that he had access to the metal. Then when the IIG and JREF said that this would be acceptable for the Paranormal Challenges he said that he did not have access to the metal and that it had disappeared and that the report by chemist Marcel Vogel would have to suffice. It doesn't suffice. In order for a claim to be tested the evidence for that claim has to be tested.

...P.S. Centrist, you had mentioned about discovering that Billy Meier gave Marcel Vogel a monazite crystal and not a piece of metal. I had not heard this before. Can you please direct me to where you discovered this?

It is this aspect of the case that I have devoted considerable time to on various forums for several reasons.

First, I knew the late Marcel Vogel for ten years prior to his death and can vouch for his integrity, honesty, and sincerity. It was he who originally told me the the story of the disappearing metal sample. I've since learned that when he asked for more samples, something like silver solder was given to him and he was quite upset by this and couldn't understand why anyone would do such a thing. It has been variously suggested that the "vanishing" sample was either lost or stolen or that it was "dematerialized" and "beamed up" by Meier's Plejaren friends. I have heard that the sample was of metal manufactured to build the beamships and that Marcel basically said "it is not of this world."

Secondly, I also read from Michael Horn that other samples existed, and so I attempted to procure one with a very interested Fortean Times group in London to have independently tested. An "official" response from Switzerland, however, indicated that there were no more samples. However, recently, a FIGU member reported on a FIGU-related forum that he'd been to see Billy and asked Billy if there were any more metal samples, and Billy said yes and invited him to see them, but the member never got around to doing that during his stay!? (So I frankly don't know what the real story is!!)

Finally, Derek is absolutely correct when he says this metal sample is key:
"This is the ONLY piece of evidence that is testable for either Paranormal Challenge. The photographs, sound recordings, and prophecies are all ineligible for a variety of reasons, some of which I have stated above. However, it is very easy to test a piece of metal for evidence of extraterrestrial manufacturing origin." Over and over in every forum I have visited and participated in, people have recognized the importance of this "unobtanium" evidence and have zeroed in on it as the key piece of the puzzle to establish the authenticity of the Meier case.

Unfortunately for the many enquiring minds here, no sample similar to the original one is apparently available.

I don't know anything about the crystal sample you refer to Derek, but Marcel eventually focused much of his later work on crystals and their healing powers. If you or anyone here is interested in finding further information about Marcel, I refer you to Rumi Da, a person to whom Marcel entrusted his work and his legacy. You may e-mail him:[email protected]

[edit on 15-1-2006 by vogelfire]