Is there a growing anti american sentiment on the board?

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
The problem is not getting worse, it has always been here and, unfortunately, it a perspective that is in vogue, not only abroad, but also among too many Americans. Patriotism began to become unpopular during the sixties and while it has gained in acceptability in some quarters, it has never regained acceptability in the academy.

I will say this, however, about this board. Almost any negative generalization toward any group or entity, even written in jest or tongue-in-cheek, is likely to garner a warning, unless, of course, such a generalization is directed toward the USA. America bashing is considered fair game for intellectuals and pseudo-intellectuals alike.

I don't think that patriotism became unpopular during the 60's necessarily. I think that people who were serving their own agenda changed the definition of the word to something that would support their ends. Anyone who disagreed with what they were doing, were then unpatriotic. Hmmm, kind of sounds like what is going on right now....

As far as anti american views, i dont necessarily think that is an accurate way of looking at the picture. There are many people in this country who are easily manipulated and are blinded by the need to be on the side that is right (right meaning correct or true, not a political term). There are many of this country who love it with all of their hearts and minds, yet are so disgusted with what we have become (especially in a post 911 world) that they cannot support what they know to be unjust - and suddenly they are anti american because they dont agree with what the media and the government says about "how it is". One must only travel beyond our own borders to see that most people in the world have a VERY different view than those of this government. This goes beyond Democratic & Republican. This is about the corrupt and how they have overtaken our system of government - at most levels. We should be leading the world in areas of health care, education and scientific advancement - not military might (mostly is purly technological). Our dependence upon oil has usurped our values to the point where we must "defend our way of life at all costs". Our way of life.... What is that exactly? It took the destruction of a city by a natural disaster to rally support for each other. Everyday MANY people in this country are living in poverty who have lost everything. How can we dictate to others how to run their countries when we cannot even run our own. We dont run anything here anymore. Everyone is bought. Those of us who are the "middle class" are nothing more than working serf's, as slaves to a system we always had dreamed never to become a part of.

I think there has always been a lot of anti American sentiment.....we just don't usually see it so openly as we are at the moment. Americans tend to think they know it all, can solve all, and have more of the popcorn than anyone else does.....which doesn't set well with others. I do think it has picked as of late with the war continuing. Many Americans are very narcissistic
....everyone just needs to learn to play nice with each other...never happen though!

Not aganist America...................but against those who are anti-American in power........

what I mean is this..........

the declaration of independence...............the constitution and its bill of rights...........are the most cherished documents in the history of government and have laid the foundation for the greatness of this country....

The republic that our founding fathers constructed is being threatened today by unaccountable corporations who buy out our government through campaign and lobby influence...........outsource our jobs.......enslave labor overseas while destroying other cultures their national and environment.........all for more profit to them at the expense of the well being of american citizens.............and compromise the security of our country in the process.........

Those corporations and the puppet political parties in power are rotting away what wisdom the founding fathers have created.............that is what the anti-American sentiment is really about............

We love the country but hate what those in power are doing to the very citizens they are suppose to serve..............

make sense??

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

5. I certainly don't hope Americans suffer, nor do I experience glee when disaster strikes. And while nobody deserves to be murdered, I think we need to look hard at our foreign policy as part of the reason other countries hate us.

It's like the woman who gets repeatedly raped and yet continues to walk, unarmed down the same alley every night. The rape is not her fault but she should reconsider her practices that bring about the same result. She has to be accountable at some point and so do we.

A couple of things here.

First, other countries hate us because they choose to do so. Ultimately, you cannot control someone else's insides. You cannot make them love you. And it is sick to try to control their opinion of you. We are not entitled to their good will. I believe we are entitled to their respect, just as they are entitled to ours. But you cannot be healthy and live your life according to the opinions of others, who legitimately want other things that you do. It is only natural that different nations want different things.

Look again at your "rape" analogy. (one I find distasteful in the extreme.) Did you notice that in your whole paragraph you never once mentioned the victim's assailant. You talk about the victim's accountability, but never the criminal's. Why is that?

I was shocked, partly because conservatives are always being accused of "blaming the victim." Yet somehow, when the victim is America (or a rape victim, apparently), the actions of the perpetrator are irrelevant compared to the victim's accountability.

So what is the difference between accountability and guilt?

Apparently, if America is the assailant, it's guilty; yet when America is the victim, it's still responsible.

Do other peoples of the earth ever get to be scrutinized, or is that "only for the USA ???"

My very first definition of "anti-American" was holding America to a different standard than that to which you hold other nations. I stand by that as the most telling test of your sentiments.

[edit for spelling]

[edit on 21-9-2005 by dr_strangecraft]

[edit on 21-9-2005 by dr_strangecraft]

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
First, other countries hate us because they choose to do so. Ultimately, you cannot control someone else's insides. You cannot make them love you. And it is sick to try to control their opinion of you. We are not entitled to their good will. I believe we are entitled to their respect, just as they are entitled to ours. But you cannot be healthy and live your life according to the opinions of others, who legitimately want other things that you do. It is only natural that different nations want different things.

I'm not suggesting we try to make other countries love us. I'm suggesting we treat other countries as we would like to be treated. With respect (which is not entitled to us anymore than 'love' is, in my opinion).

On respect, I respect people until they prove they don't deserve it. I don't continue respecting them even when they treat me or others like dirt. Nobody is 'entitled' to respect. Especially if they bully others around. What's respectable about that?

Look again at your "rape" analogy. (one I find distasteful in the extreme.) Did you notice that in your whole paragraph you never once mentioned the victim's assailant. You talk about the victim's accountability, but never the criminal's. Why is that?

I said the rape is not the woman's fault (implying that it's the rapist's or assailant's fault). Sorry if that wasn't clear. I'm not sure why the analogy is so distasteful to you. But I meant no offense to anyone. It's just an analogy.

... yet when America is the victim, it's still responsible.

It shares in the responsibility, yes, but it's not guilty.

You're using 'blame', 'fault', 'guilt', 'responsibility' and 'accountability' interchangeably and they don't all mean the same thing. In my analogy of a man raping a woman:

The rapist is at fault and he is to blame, he is guilty. He has done something wrong (illegal and immoral).
He is responsible and accountable for raping someone. It was his choice and he is answerable for his action of rape.

She bears no fault, blame or guilt.
She is responsible for her safety. Especially given her past experience, she is answerable for continuing to put herself in a position that has proven to be dangerous.
She is also accountable for her actions (continuing to place herself in danger.)

If you buy the official story of 9/11, for example, America bears no fault, blame or guilt. They didn't commit the act. However, we share responsibility and accountability for how other countries feel about us. Those guys weren't over there sitting in a cave wondering, "Hmmm... I feel like hating someone today... I think I'll choose to hate America"! No. If that were the case, there would be people hating Sweden, Canada and Norway, too. (Yes. There are some that hate those countries but not with nearly the virulence nor the numbers that hate America.) This hatred of America by other countries for the most part didn't spring up out of a void. We are not at fault for 9/11, but we need to admit our responsibility in being a nation that is so hated. We need to look at our part in it.

Do other peoples of the earth ever get to be scrutinized, or is that "only for the USA ???"

This may sound crass, but that's not my concern. I really don't care. I'm an American, I care about America. I don't care about British politics or the price of tea in China. If your argument is "Well, at least we're better than some." I dont buy that. That's not good enough for me. I also don't give a crap about other countries scrutinizing us. Who cares? That's our job. Call me selfish, but I care about my own first.


[edit on 21-9-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]

I don't see where "countries" developed a capacity to "love" or "hate".

The personification of "countries" and the application of a label to a person based on all stereotypes associated with their accidental country of birth or residence should actually be well beneath thinking ATS members.

Perhaps it's better to argue from a set of principles than along useless national boundaries, but not everyone wants to join in that kind of discussion. That's the world as we know it.

"Is there a growing anti american sentiment on the board?" I believe well and honestly spoken -- hat's off.

Of course there's anti-American thinking but I don't believe ATS is part of it ?, for now. Just a close vent to international opinion. There are alot of ATS people American. The U.S Political Party is not exactly popular worldwide. And so ends my little view.

Dallas

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
However, we share responsibility and accountability for how other countries feel about us.

Again, there's the root of the difference between you and I. I don't make myself responsible for other people's feelings. If you choose to be unhappy, there's fundamentally nothing I can do to cheer you up. You may not be responsible for your outside environment. But you ARE responsible for your own insides. Whether your life is a joyride or a crushing humiliation is entirely up to you, and how you choose to feel. I am not responsible for your mood. Nor am I responsible for the moods of people I've never even met.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Do other peoples of the earth ever get to be scrutinized, or is that "only for the USA ???"

This may sound crass, but that's not my concern. I really don't care.

In other words, Afghanistan or Iran can do whatever it wants, and you aren't interested in holding them accountable?????

Again, it seems fairly obvious that your only interest in asigning blame is when it comes to your own country.

How convenient for everyone in the world who wishes you ill.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

Again, there's the root of the difference between you and I. I don't make myself responsible for other people's feelings. If you choose to be unhappy, there's fundamentally nothing I can do to cheer you up. You may not be responsible for your outside environment. But you ARE responsible for your own insides. Whether your life is a joyride or a crushing humiliation is entirely up to you, and how you choose to feel. I am not responsible for your mood. Nor am I responsible for the moods of people I've never even met.

No, you are not responsible in any way for how other people feel internally. You are correct on that.

However, let's create a totally hypothetical situation.

Let's say that we don't know each other (actually true, most likely ), but we both walk down the same street to go to work every day. And every day you spit on my neck.

Now, whether I am all upset about this, or shrug it off or even find it a turn-on is of course, as you have stated, not something for which you are responsible or accountable in any way.

However, if one day I kicked your ass all the way around the block because I got tired of you spitting on my neck, I think it would not be too much of a stretch to say you hold some responsibility or accountability for getting your ass kicked, when if you had not been spitting on me, it most likely would not have happened.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
The personification of "countries" and the application of a label to a person based on all stereotypes associated with their accidental country of birth or residence should actually be well beneath thinking ATS members.

Perhaps it's better to argue from a set of principles than along useless national boundaries, but not everyone wants to join in that kind of discussion. That's the world as we know it.

I actually agree with this, BUT this whole thread is about the hatred of a country and the anti-country sentiments or 'feelings', so I'm speaking in those terms to get my points across.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
Again, there's the root of the difference between you and I. I don't make myself responsible for other people's feelings.

I believe you're missing my point. I am not responsible for other people's feelings. (If you only knew how much I 'preach' this!) What I'm reaponsible for are my actions. If I use other people, bully them, mistreat and abuse them, I shouldn't be surprised if they don't like me. I am responsible for my actions, they are responsible for their feelings and their actions. We share the responsibility for the situation.

In other words, Afghanistan or Iran can do whatever it wants, and you aren't interested in holding them accountable?????

With their own countries? Yes, they can do whatever they want. It's none of my business. How they run their government, the standards with which they operate, the way they hold an election, their hatred of other countries, the leaders they choose. They can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't step on my rights, hurt me or mine.

Now, if you're talking about their actions against other countries, specifically America, that's where I get involved. I do not hold them accountable for how they run themselves, but if and when they start attacking us, then yeah, I want to get involved. We have a right to defend ourselves (if that's what you're asking).

Altogether now!

Oh, say can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, now conceals, now discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines on the stream:
'Tis the star-spangled banner! O long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion
A home and a country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wiped out their foul footstep's pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved homes and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

Happy now guys?

btw, Europeans get it alot worse on this board especially if you dont agree with American views. You tend to get label a "European Socialist","communists",etc if you post against Bush and Co.

Guys, define "anti-American", majority tend to be criticism against American politics, but somehow, its twisted into being "anti-American".

OK, I'll take a shot at defining "Anti-American":

"Anti-American" is promoting or supporting policies that:

- suppress free expression.

- suppress expression of disagreement with the implementors of the government.

- label such dissentors as 'traitors', 'un-patriotic' or 'Anti-American'

- suppress peaceful demonstration

- incite violence

- weaken the prohibition against a government favored religion

- confiscate legally owned firearms from private citizens

- hold people in indefinite detention without a public trial or charges

- make it impossible to verify who actually wins an election

I dont even know why we have to take this this far.....

An Anti-American= Hates Americans

Anti Government,=Would be anti- Bush and Company and not NOT AntiAmericans.

Those twisted talking heads on the radio use these terminologies all wrong as a way to further divide (if thats possible) the masses.

I know what it freaking means and English is my third language.

Originally posted by dgtempe
I dont even know why we have to take this this far.....

An Anti-American= Hates Americans

Anti Government,=Would be anti- Bush and Company and not NOT AntiAmericans.

The reason it has come this far is that a Super Moderator has posted that there are apparently an increase in complaints about 'anti-American sentiments' on the board. I haven't read one post where someone said, "I hate Americans" as your refreshingly simple definitions indicate.

So, to ask for a definition from the originator is the next logical step. Of course, he's under no obligation to give one. But if I knew what he meant, I would at least be able to make my own judgment.

Then again, according to Open_Minded Skeptic's definition, I would have to say that I have indeed observed this sentiment on the board.

So it's clear to me that it ALL depends on what one means when they say "anti-American".

[edit on 22-9-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by billybob
believing this requires a great deal of faith.

No, it does not. All it takes is looking at the threads on this MB. Anytime America comes up in a topic, it is as a negative, or is quickly turned into a negative by one of the many US haters on this site.

speaking of leaping, HOLY LEAPING LOGIC! 'conspiracy' is a 'dirty' word, so america the clean is sullied by the very existence of said word?
(p.s. when you say america dominates everything important, then you must realise the inherent responsibility for the state of the world.
and in a marvel of reasoning, you say that a lot of people here dislike the us because of it's unpopular war......most these people are AMERICANS, and not liking a war or your current government does not equal 'dislike' of the US. try not to contradict yourself within one paragraph. it'll make you popular at parties, and you can impress freinds and relatives.)

Dirty word, not exactly - but it does imply a level of evil or wrong doing. The problem is that it is ALWAYS the US being shat on by the majority of the members of this site, mostly those with your mentality.

As far as your sad attempt to extend a broad statement which is true (yes, the US does dominatate global politics and does have more global influence then any other nation) to try and blame the worlds problems on an nation that is less then 300 years old and has been a global power for only 100 years...

What ever makes you feel good I guess.

As far as Americans feelings on this war, I would LOVE to see a survey of JUST Americans on this site, because from what I see about half of us support the war. Thus, most of these people are NOT Americans oh logical one. I agree that not backing a war does not by it's self make you anti-american, but the comments that come from this crowd DOES.

And please, keep your pathetic snide comments to yourself. You aren't doing anything but making yourself look absurdly insecure.

I think it has been sucessfully established that there exists a profound difference between disliking the policies of the United States of America and disliking the people of the United States. No-one hates the people...period...so, it is the policies of government which cause anti-American comments.

Why not further the issue by including all of North, Central and South America in this navel gazing. After all, Chavez has been thoroughly praised and chastised by the posters here for, variously, his comments regarding Pat Robertson, his affiliations with Castro and his recent speech at the UN. Venezuala is in the Americas too. If you're critical of Chavez in a post here, then are you not also, by extension, anti-American in your comments?

Mexico has also found a place for various reasons and Canada, as well, figures prominently in discussions here.

So...is being anti-American not within the topic under discussion, from the southern tip of Chili to Hans Island in the Arctic?

Why does it have to encompass only the United States, as if it is the only place that matters? Is it the only place that matters? Is the ATS board not international enough? Is it constrained to U.S. opinions merely by the weight of their numbers here on the boards? How do the 'rest of the world' posters feel about that? Shouldn't it matter how they feel?

I'm wondering what the 'Old World' thinks of the 'New World'. C'mon Europeans, Asians and Africans (et al)...lets hear it. Are the Americas the problem child of the worlds continents and is the criticism thereof the underlying base for the anti-Americanism this thread attempts to expose??

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
Look again at your "rape" analogy. (one I find distasteful in the extreme.) Did you notice that in your whole paragraph you never once mentioned the victim's assailant. You talk about the victim's accountability, but never the criminal's. Why is that?

I was shocked, partly because conservatives are always being accused of "blaming the victim." Yet somehow, when the victim is America (or a rape victim, apparently), the actions of the perpetrator are irrelevant compared to the victim's accountability.

So what is the difference between accountability and guilt?

Apparently, if America is the assailant, it's guilty; yet when America is the victim, it's still responsible.

Do other peoples of the earth ever get to be scrutinized, or is that "only for the USA ???"

My very first definition of "anti-American" was holding America to a different standard than that to which you hold other nations. I stand by that as the most telling test of your sentiments.
[edit on 21-9-2005 by dr_strangecraft]

You got my WATS vote for this. You have been spot on this whole thread.

As many have said, what is anti-American ? Some still know. Re-read dr strangecraft and
American Mad Man. But to keep this reply simple, lets assume it is a level of nasty attack
on something, in this case a country. Since 9/11 is ever present in my mind, yes that is a
direct attack. I have no doubt that those terrorists were anti-American. They attacked directly.

But what about indirect attacks, or the subtle ones. They always start with "We support the
troops BUT we are against the war." Or my personal favorite, "I love my country BUT..."

Less subtle, "If the 9/11 attack was what we have been told..."

If you sound like the enemy, at night it might be hard to tell the difference. Avoid the free-fire zones
in Iraq and Afgan.

But back to the more direct attacks. If you hate someone, you tend to attack in a manner
that is hard to misunderstand. Its personal and dirty. So how would you do that to a
country, other than 9/11 ? You attack its symbols, what it holds dear. If you are
caught, just say it was not intended and was just my right to protest.

Netchicken, the evidence to answer your question is right before your eyes.

Look at the forum page, and I call your attention to the Katrina Conspiracies Discussion.
Describe the little icon representing this forum. Yeah, the inverted "Ol Glory". Cute it
AINT. I would expect this from a terrorist be-header maybe, but not ATS. Name me ONE
country in the world who has EVER insulted America by displaying our Flag in this manner.

There, my friend, is the physical evidence that there is anti-American sentiment growing ON THE BOARD.

Originally posted by nightwing

Netchicken, the evidence to answer your question is right before your eyes.

Look at the forum page, and I call your attention to the Katrina Conspiracies Discussion.
Describe the little icon representing this forum. Yeah, the inverted "Ol Glory". Cute it
AINT. I would expect this from a terrorist be-header maybe, but not ATS. Name me ONE
country in the world who has EVER insulted America by displaying our Flag in this manner.

There, my friend, is the physical evidence that there is anti-American sentiment growing ON THE BOARD.

It is NOT a sign of rebellion to fly Old Glory upside down. It means SOS:

www.ushistory.org...


Q:Is it ever appropriate to fly the flag upside down?

A:Yes, but only in an emergency. It means "Help Me, I am in Trouble!"

Sometimes the worst answer isn't the only answer. On the other hand, unless ATS itself is "in distress," I also think it was a bit much. And I DO think that more was intended that a mere . . . _ _ _ . . .

Originally posted by nightwing
But what about indirect attacks, or the subtle ones. They always start with "We support the
troops BUT we are against the war." Or my personal favorite, "I love my country BUT..."

I will not argue that there is not anti-american sentiment on this board; however, stating that I am anti-american does tick me off!

I served 20 years in the military for my country, I was in Kuwait for Desert Storm and am damn proud of it and of my country. With that said, I do support the troops but am against the 'war'.

I will gladly tell anyone that really is anti-american to get the hell out if they dislike it so much! But, to question the government and to speak out about what you feel is wrong in the US is just about the most pro-american, patriotic thing you can possibly do. If you can't grasp that concept, perhaps you should move to some other country (China?) where disagreeing with the authorities is truly 'discouraged' and you can have any free thinkers 'removed'. This seems to match your way of thinking much better than the American way does.

Edited for grammar.

[edit on 27-9-2005 by Jaryn]