Is there a growing anti american sentiment on the board?

Wow. I must say that I am surprised by this thread. I hadn't noticed this Anti-American sentiment. Maybe I'm not being very observant. I'd like to see some examples.

Then again, even if people are against America, it's their right and it's just an expression of an opinion.

I know when people (like myself) speak out against the current government they are many times accused of being 'Anti-American' but that's just a misnomer. That's just an attempt to make the speaker the bad guy. It's our duty as Americans to speak out when we see the government taking the country down a dangerous or corrupt road. Is that the Anti-American sentiment you're speaking of?

Even billybob's post isn't really attacking America so much as the leadership.

I guess I just really don't see this Anti-American sentiment happening...

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Even billybob's post isn't really attacking America so much as the leadership.

The fact is that what party is in power doesn't alter the anti-Americanism that exists over time. Only the rhetoric changes. Most people on this board can't remember when Reagan was President, much less Lyndon Johnson, but the anti-American component didn't miss a beat when the Republican Nixon succeeded the Democrat Johnson in the White House. The administration is just a convenient target.

[edit on 2005/9/19 by GradyPhilpott]

Just to be clear about the distribution of visitors to ATS...

grady, define anti-americanism.
anti-fascism isn't the same as anti-americanism.
the corporation is too infused with the body politic. ADMIT IT!
geez, i'm gonna have to get out the rubber chicken and start whackin' heads around here.
the american people, like the rest of us people in the world, are VICTIMS of rampant corporate fascism. america barely exists. it certainly exists in nowhere near the form set out by the founding fathers.
isn't there something that rightwing religious zealots are prone to spew? ...'god hates homosexuality, but god loves the homosexual', er sumethin like that.
'billybob loves americans, but hates (what) america(has become, ...ie, a fascist dictatorship).'

sorry. i'm an idealist. i believe the world could revolve on logic instead of greed. that's just me.

****no americans were harmed in the typing of this post.****

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Even billybob's post isn't really attacking America so much as the leadership.

The fact is that what party is in power doesn't alter the anti-Americanism that exists over time. Only the rhetoric changes. Most people on this board can't remember when Reagan was President, much less Lyndon Johnson, but the anti-American component didn't miss a beat when the Republican Nixon succeeded the Democrat Johnson in the White House. The administration is just a convenient target.

[edit on 2005/9/19 by GradyPhilpott]

So true. The party in power makes little difference. The slow slide of American culture and behaviour into a cesspool of dysharmony has taken decades of mismanagement and apathy. I find it unfathomable that a city in crisis had to be cleared by SWAT teams. What a disgrace. It says it all.

marg6043 has made a very good point, one that seems to have been overlooked. There is anti-American sentiment - not only on the ATS board but in the world at large - and it is growing. You only have to look at the way in which world media portrayed the aftermath of Katrina. The world saw a shattered region turn on itself, no assistance for its citizens and gun totting gangs roaming the streets.
As you sow, so shall ye reap.

The question is why this sentiment is rising so fast, marg6043 summed it up in saying:

Originally posted by marg6043'Our country is in trouble, economically, financially and politically,'

America is the world’s largest polluter; it is the world’s largest consumer of natural resource - the largest net oil importer - and is becoming increasingly irrational in its foreign policy.
All of the political capital gained during the 2001 attacks has been wasted in Afghanistan and Iraq. In the wake of the recent disaster in the gulf America has caused record fuel prices as it chartered all the refinery and fuel transporting capacity it could.

marg064 then goes on to say:

Originally posted by marg6043
Just give up and admit that our country under the present administration is in big trouble.

In reality a straight forward change in administration is not going to change anything quickly. America as a nation needs to redefine itself, to look to the future and decide if it is going to carry on being a liability to the rest of the world, or if it is going to lead us into a new era of shared wealth and resources and use its technological might - not its military force - to unite the world and bring real freedom to all.

This winter looks to be a long and cold time, with impending gas and oil shortages. It may be a good time for an overly comfortable consumer society to decide if it can afford the luxuries we have all come to take for granted.

Reading this makes me laugh, all you people taking it seriously. C'mon folks, water under the bridge, right? Have a laugh. Mods, join in!

Hey, that's what you tell everyone when you're making fun of France, right?

The fact that you people can spew this BS when bashing other countries is par for the course bends me the wrong way. It's okay to root against France (europe in general, for that matter) or China at every turn, but the instant anyone objects to america, we have lefties wringing their hands and righties encouraging each other to 'nuke everyone'.

But hey, it's okay to have a double standard, right?

DE

DeusEx - I completly Agree with You!

I wonder how many posts we can find here, that could be labeled as Anti-French or Anti-Chinese or Anti-Islamic. Still, USA is not at war with any of these three I mentioned. I wonder why is there so much Anti-Islamic sentiments, since War on Terror - I thought Terrorism does not have anything to do with Religion, but with "Rougue Terrorists States". I thought that War on Terror is not a War of Religions. I guess I was wrong here too.

So, when saying there are "Anti-American" Sentiments - think about why, not how many. Why do you think people express this kind of opinion? Because they are Bored? Because they have nothing better to do? Or maybe because they want to Express their Opinions regarding the World Politics Today - which are basicly Ruled by the USA by the way. America has with its current goverment taken the leading role in this "Play" called War on Terror. And Since 9-11 World has become a Far MORE dangerous place to live in and far more harder. Things a-get Harder. Facts are the numbers of terrorist attacks have increased since 9-11. Why? Because of Osama is planning his actions Very Well?

I have said that numerous times, and I will say it again:

If America is represented by their Current Goverment - then Damn Right I am Anti-American! But I know that is not true. I belive that America has to offer much, much more then Doctrine for Joint Nuclear Operations, Guantanamo Bay Prison Camp Delta, Patriot Acts and so on and so on.

That's just my Humble Opinion.

And we are Expressing our Opinions here - that's what the Debates are all about, remember?

Originally posted by billybob
grady, define anti-americanism.

Yes, please do (somebody). We can all sit here and say there is no Anti-Americanism or that there is rampant Anti-Americanism, but if we haven't defined the term, we could go on arguing about it for days.

Anti-Americanism. Is it:
- Contempt for the current administration and its policies?
- Hatred of the American people because of their arrogance?
- Disdain for the ideals of the founders, the Constitution, etc.?
- Fear and loathing of the current war mongering and blatant disregard for her own people?
- Resistance of the dictatorship that is emerging?
- Animosity toward our fellow Americans for their political views?

Any of these? All of them? Some combination? Because if you're defining Anti-American as a few of these, then, I'll cop to it as well on your terms.

But I do NOT consider myself anti-American on my terms, because I love this country and the principles upon which it was founded. I honor the Constitution. I have a deep bond with my fellow Americans, even if we disagree, even if I think some are arrogant at times, even though we may be somewhat self-centered. I love us and our country.

I am against this administration and all that it stands for. I am against everything it has done. I am against the war, dictatorship, the Patriot Act and the continuing shredding of the Constitution and personal freedom.

So tell me, what is "Anti-American" to you and I will tell you if I am or not. That's for me to judge. If you're observing Anti-Americanism, the least you can do is define it for us.

I think three main factors are responsible for the perception of growing anti-American sentiments:

• Gross Ignorance - Not being aware of all the facts, or being innundated by the media, or one's peers, is probably the largest cause I can find for any true anti-American sentiments. A lot of us hate Bush and his administration, and wish Katrina had chosen his ranch instead, but unfortunately many people equate that with a hatred of their country. America itself is fine. The problems we are facing today (economic downturn, war, natural disasters, disease, political turmoil) have been occurring for thousands of years, in every single country on Earth at several times during their existence. However, since Joe Average is about as politically, historically, and logically savvy as a brain-dead laboratory ape, the vast majority of people tend to forget this key fact. Humans, regardless of nationality, are fickle as hell. If the country is perceived as doing well, or has a common enemy, patriotism soars. If the country is perceived as doing poorly, then discontented grumblings are the rule. Since figureheads are the most public image of a country, it stands to reason that such a publicly despised leadership would, in turn, make the average person think the country had gone to hell. In truth, it's simply ignorance (or ignoring of) the facts.
  
  
• Poor Leadership - Let's face it, the people who love Bush now would still love him if he grew a tiny moustache, dawned a swastika, and urinated on kittens he'd slain with the jawbone of the Pope. There's simply no helping some people; to them, he can do no wrong. To the other 70% of us who are absolutely disgusted with Bush, we have to recognize the fact that he was elected into office as the leader of America, by just barely over half the nation. This really makes us resentful of the half that elected him. And since 70% is a lot more than 50%, there's a good third of "We the People" kicking themselves for voting Bush. American society's morale is extremely low and resentful of itself as a result of the scandals of over 40 decades being thrown in our face, every hour of every single day. Truthfully, the media hasn't exactly helped the image either. Every President since Nixon has either been heralded as a crook, a clown, a puppet, or some combination thereof, by the press. Touching back on the whole "ignorance" point earlier, it should be noted that at least we still have the right to speak out against the President and his administration, unlike our UK cousins across the pond who will now be deported for doing so.
  
  
• The Harrison Bergeron Factor - The evaporation of the middle class is rarifying people into rich and poor. It has been my personal experience over the last two years that one can go from abject poverty to middle-class wealth in a very short amount of time, with a simply by saving, budgeting, paying down debt, and investing in a house...all with under $30k per year. However, most people do not have the knowledge or discipline to do this, nor do they have the initiative to learn. The rich, on the other hand, have already made this a part of their life, and pass it on to their kids if they are even remotely intelligent. Thus, poor beget poor, and rich beget rich. A self-fulfilling cycle, in today's culture of Professional Victims, is seen as being kept down by "the man". The reality is, the Man keeps himself up, has an interest in others being up as well, and really couldn't give two hoots about the poor. The poor, likewise, keep themselves down, have an active interest in others being down (miserly loves company), and resent the rich for having something they do not. In America, this translates to nearly everything from Democrats vs. Republicans, to victims of hurricane Katrina, to tax breaks, to the widespread hatred of Bill Gates and other successful entrepreneurs. Once, success was seen as a virtue. In today's America, mediocrity is the virtue. Schools are removing points from games, so that the loser's don't get their feelings hurt. Likewise, grades are being removed for the same reason. Political Correctness makes every limiting condition so generic and vague that no one knows what special considerations might need to be taken to accomodate those who need it. Disciplining children in any way other than the state approved method of the hour has become a federal crime that results in jailtime and Child Protective Services showing up at the door. Any casualties at all, in any armed conflict involving U.S. Forces are a failure in the eyes of Americans (I remind the reader of the big deal about the less than 200 American deaths in the first Gulf War). Even casualties of the enemy's are seen as a failure. As people become more and more rarified into one extreme or the other, choosing mediocrity as a virtue seemed a good idea at first, but has now made it so that there is absolutely nothing to cheer for, nothing for Americans to say "Yes, we did it, we're better than someone else." Instead, we are made to either feel inadequate for not achieving average status, or guilty because they've over-achieved. It's "Harrison Bergeron", in the real world.

Perhaps the saddest part of all of this is that one would think that, this being a forum for the more intellectual amongst us, that more people would realize it and not join the bandwagon in lazily crying out the same anti-American banter that was espoused to them by some kid with a guitar on the street corner. Unfortunately, we are quite deluded in this image. None of us had to take an IQ test to join ATS. None of us were put through the hoops to prove our intellectual worth. None of us were given an essay test to show our ability to deduce logic and reason. And I certainly don't recall any conditions based on historic or political knowledge so in essence, the idea that somehow the average ATSer would be above ignorance and mediocrity is largely delusional. Now, granted, I've met a lot of extremely amazing, intelligent, logical, creative, and great people here on ATS, and I consider myself blessed to have made their acquaintance. However, one must admit that for every 1 person who gives a well thought-out post, there are 10 other posts of tripe, and 100 posts that regurgitate at least half their material from nothing more than hearsay.

Anti-American sentiment is a strange beast, take this as a personal example.

I work for a large american company that is owned by an even larger European company. The Euros bad mouth America and the Americans whenever they come over on business, but only to me (me being English by birth and therefore a fellow "European" in their eyes).

And yet, those same Euros will go to any lengths to spend time in the US. They are constantly trying to find reasons to come over, they vacation here, and volunteer for periods of detached duty here and come over with their families for a year at a time. They do not have any interest in doing the same thing for other international operations that our parent company owns.

Conclusion - it's inescapable, pure jealousy. If everyone hated the USA so much, they would rather die than come here, and yet the streets seem to be filled with Europeans, especially the poorly behaved Brit yobs, particularly in Florida.

"Anti-American" is a cliche devised 5 years ago to separate the ones who are WITH this government as opposed to the ones who do not agree with what 's going on.

It works, it stirrs up debates, it makes me very mad to hear, "well, you're Anti-American". The furthest thing could be from the truth.

I am the one who truly loves America.

Although i must say it works for the talking heads on the radio...in fact, they got it from Bush himself. "Either you're with us, or you're NOT" (america loving people), that is.....

Originally posted by thelibra
I think three main factors are responsible for the perception of growing anti-American sentiments:

• Gross Ignorance - Not being aware of all the facts, or being innundated by the media, or one's peers, is probably the largest cause I can find for any true anti-American sentiments.

I think that many people here who hold "anti-american" sentiments know exactly what has happend in the past. but just because it's happened before doesn't mean that it's ok that it's happening now. "sure G.W. is taking away our civil liberties and our constitutional rights, but look at what Hitler did!" WTF?

Poor Leadership - Let's face it, the people who love Bush now would still love him if he grew a tiny moustache, dawned a swastika, and urinated on kittens he'd slain with the jawbone of the Pope.

Love that one!

The Harrison Bergeron Factor - The evaporation of the middle class is rarifying people into rich and poor. It has been my personal experience over the last two years that one can go from abject poverty to middle-class wealth in a very short amount of time, with a simply by saving, budgeting, paying down debt, and investing in a house...all with under $30k per year.

under like 29,999 a year? what's under? how many people do we have making less than you do in this country? how many people aren't just poor with their "under $30K per year" but are below POVERTY?

However, most people do not have the knowledge or discipline to do this, nor do they have the initiative to learn. The rich, on the other hand, have already made this a part of their life, and pass it on to their kids if they are even remotely intelligent. Thus, poor beget poor, and rich beget rich.

not only do the rich pass on the "knowledge or discipline" to their kids, they also pass on the money. and everyone knows the old saying, "it takes money to make money." I personally know the difference between having the money to pay taxes on a new vehicle to register it and not having that money so therefore you accrue tickets for not having tags and penalties for not having the money to pay those tickets because you finally had enough to get your tags and having warrants out for your arrest because you get arrested, not for something you're doing at the time, but because, though you have tags now, you didn't have tags then.

being short a couple hundred bucks can cause a nightmare. but hey, if your parents have dough, you don't have to worry about real life. (yes, I'm bitter because I actually have to take care of business on my own and others have what I don't have while not doing what I do and having more fun at the same time!)

A self-fulfilling cycle, in today's culture of Professional Victims, is seen as being kept down by "the man". The reality is, the Man keeps himself up, has an interest in others being up as well, and really couldn't give two hoots about the poor. The poor, likewise, keep themselves down, have an active interest in others being down (miserly loves company), and resent the rich for having something they do not. In America, this translates to nearly everything from Democrats vs. Republicans, to victims of hurricane Katrina, to tax breaks, to the widespread hatred of Bill Gates and other successful entrepreneurs. Once, success was seen as a virtue. In today's America, mediocrity is the virtue. Schools are removing points from games, so that the loser's don't get their feelings hurt. Likewise, grades are being removed for the same reason. Political Correctness makes every limiting condition...

yada, yada, yepper. I think that some people don't want the average, and when rich folk talk about money they switch average with mean, but what the average could be. and should we view death of the "enemy" as a victory? should we strive to say "we did it!" by stepping on the heads of our fellow citizens, not to mention our fellow man. shoot, we might as well go back to the old days where the most violent folks won. (you know slavery, annexing of native american lands, brainwashing of indegineous people you know, what america was built on. )

[edit on 20-9-2005 by passengername]

Is there more anti-American sentiment? No, as was pointed out, there seems to be less. It might seem this way to me because I don't get bogged down in the mind-wasting politics anymore since that is a sport meant to distract us and give us a feeling of being part of the system.


I believe the sentiment is misplaced, as many people see the on-goings of those who control many governments as American on-goings. This is understandable as "they" have been using American money and American military to further their cause for quite some time. Those in control like it this way, as it puts the dogs off the real trail. While I don't like my country holding the bag when the gripers' countries are controlled just as much as mine, I am glad that people see problems. Education is all that is necessary, the pointing out of the real villians on the world stage.
I don't take offense, I simply try and point the gripers in the right direction.

This sticks out the most, most of the visitors are Americans and most of the people who are "un-American" here are American. What it comes down to is the minority will always out voice the majority.

I can get pretty disgusted with this place at times and others I feel that it is a very respectable place. What it comes down to is what you choose to read. If you are reading something that is pro-liberal, and your a Conservative why read it? Its just going to frustrate you.

What I do see from this board is a very strong dis liking for the bush administration and I am not just talking about the members. This is understandable and its good to see different opinions. The thing we have to keep in mind is to be anti-bush does not mean to be anti-American.

I like the president and I am truly satisfied with every thing hes done and thats my honest opinion anything else would be a lie. The thing that really ticks my nerves though are the people that have to shoot you down when you say something like "I like the president and I am truly satisfied with every thing hes done" its like thats my opinion I don't complain about yours or try to disprove it and don't give me that "I have an opinion too" crap because thats fine if you do but don't try to make me look like an idiot because I believe the opposite of who ever is begging the differ.

My Sig is obviously anti-Michale Moore and personally I would be offended if someone PM'd me insulting me about my opinion. I don't do that to people who slap bush's head on to Hitler. Is my sig bias .. yes but, I am an individual and no way shape or form can my sig affect the way this place is governed, I do plan on changing my sig to to respect the views of pro-Michale more people though because I understand why people would be upset with it.

ATS anti-bush? well thats pretty obvious.

That picture is the first thing I see when I come here and even if those were bush's exact words I am sure that not what he meant and personally I think thats a pure slander on bush.

Am i disappointed ATS is that bias yes, do I think there anti-American because of it no. I don't expect this place to have American flags all over the place and links to pro-bush articles and sites but I do exsept it to respect the views of others and not just their own because they have a direct impact on how this place is ran and the affect it has on its members.


[edit on 20-9-2005 by iksmodnad]

That's a good point, the whole tone of this site is anti-American with photos like that, but then to be fair, it does have a significant population of sandle wearers.

It's just ironic that with all the truly nasty, evil countries out there (Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, N.Korea, Chechnya, Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe etc etc) America gets singled out for trying to do the right thing, and sure, they get it wrong sometimes in a big way. But to attempt to marginalise and villify them for every move they make, good or bad, only serves the agenda of fools.

It may be cool to mock America, but it isn't clever.

I really have to wonder what history would show us if the Internet had been around for the last 10,(.)000 years.
Not to be too comical for the subject but can anyone else see
Defeat Caesar!!! Charriot stickers?

My point is;
Anti-"whoever" sentiments have grown with communications and technology. Few in Italy cared much about the American Revolution as few in Japan cared about the French. Now we all "see it all", so to speak.

to see some our prominent liberals telling me it's all in my head.


Pardon me if I have an innate distrust of people who describe themselves to me in glowing terms of being . . .


. . . um . . .

"Fair and Balanced"

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
I veiw this site as kind of a "fringe" forum. I think there are a lot of netizens who cruise through here, look around for half an hour, and move on. I also try to intuit the average age of the posters here. I think the site is heavily skewed in the direction of junior in high school through sophomore in college.

The rest of us are just the fruits of arrested development and/or mispent youth.

The "rest of us" are most of us. I hope I'm not speaking out of turn here by posting this, but "fringe" is so popular it's post modern mainstream, and if you look at what and who "we" are nowhere does it say Anti-American.

What is ATS?

AboveTopSecret.com is, at it's core, a very active discussion board community that focuses on traditionally "alternative" topics such as extraterrestrials, conspiracies, secret government projects, and future technologies. The discussion board averages these impressive numbers on a daily basis:

over 2,500 new messages
over 70 new members
more than 3,000 visiting members
more than 30,000 visiting guests
over 150,000 page views

It is the most active destination of it's kind with more than 1.4 million posts, over 40,000 registered accounts, and over 200,000 unique pages of content.

Thanks to impressive search engine optimization techniques, it's difficult not to encounter AboveTopSecret.com when Googling alternative or even current events topics. This strategy, and continued investment in improved technologies and services for members, has allowed it to evolve into a significant online force. Our monthly traffic regularly exceeds over 1 million unique visitors and 6 million page views (actual content pages), which is about 40% of the published traffic figures for the NY Post online edition.

Who are ATS members?

Through regular demographic surveys, the typical ATS member is male, between 18 and 35, and as attended some level of college (over 50% of all members). The nature of the content, combined with the tone of the discussion, tends to attract passionate and opinionated people with a strong desire to express themselves and influence others. In other words, these people have all the attributes of the Key Influencers in their peer groups.

And as others have posted most members are American. So many of the complaints and initial perceptions we see every day of the week, really have no basis whatsoever. For the record, we get an equal amount of complaints that we're all US government apologists, which is also not the case.

I suffer from the same biases as anyone. For example, everyone on the internet is 14 until you get to know them. I've gotten to know many people here and am blown away more every day with the caliber of adults that spend their leisure time here.

Also, I think there's more than one definition of patriotism and "anti-Americanism" for that matter. (I don't even know what anti-Americanism means beyond an ideological terrorist engaged in political jihad.) Questioning the government can be a very patriotic thing. I don't discount the pure intentions of anyone from any side not outright calling for tragedy and death to befall others, and those few types I call ideological terrorists, whether they wish it on Americans or Iraqis or any other line on a map.

Plus there's continuums to all these things. I'm only the liberal jerk here (according to some). On liberal boards I'm the conservative troll (according to some). And I don't change between one forum and another. It's just people's biases reflecting what they want to see.

What I've observed here however that may be unique is a melting pot of people that either want no part of the "divide" or eventually join this popular brewing groundswell of a more moderate and reasoned revolt against extremes.

Though this site isn't politically "anything" in particular, if Libertarian watching happens to be your hobby, you'll see more here in one day than a lifetime in the real world.


[edit on 20-9-2005 by RANT]

Of course this site is anti-american.

It is a conspiracy site. Conspiracy is usually considered a bad or dirty thing. The US is by far the best (yes, I said it - my country is better then any other), most wealthy, most powerful nation in the world. Thus, they dominate everything that is important. Add to that that the US is currently engaged in war, and a lot of people here dislike the US, and blame it for the worlds problems.

Frankly, this sentiment has not been growing, because growing would suggest that it had not reached it's maximum level yet. Since I have joined this site, and even before when I simply viewed it for reading material, it has had a distinctly anti-US flavor.

If you look at that pie chart, you have about 67% of visitors here (I don't know if that means active members ) are American. I would venture to say of that 67%, more then half honestly dislike the US because they are self loathing liberals. Thats about 35% of the total visitors. Add to that the remaining 33%, and that is almost 70% of visitors that are anti-US.