Proof that Freemasonry is a Religion

Masonry does not teach that all religions are equal.

Rather, it refuses to engage in the discussion.

It recognizes that sectarian Religion has throughout human history created divisions between men.

It prohibits anything which may create division.

Hence it prohibits religious discussion, instead focusing on those **ASPECTS** on which all religions agree: The fatherhood of God, the brotherhood of man, and the immortality of the soul.

Let's put it another way:

Masonry does not teach that all CARS are equal.

Rather, it refuses to engage in the discussion.

It recognizes that the FORD VS CHEVY DEBATE has throughout human history created divisions between men.

It prohibits anything which may create division.

Hence it prohibits AUTOMAKER discussion, instead focusing on those **ASPECTS** which all AUTOMOBILES HAVE IN COMMON: ENGINES, WHEELS, and TIRES.

Talking about engines, wheels and tires doesn't make one a CAR.

DD

Good post and good job for who started it.
senrak you are over welmed by your own books, dogma and plain facts.

You cant twist this it's in your own books and your brotherhood felows
say it.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Good post and good job for who started it.
senrak you are over welmed by your own books, dogma and plain facts.
You cant twist this

it's in your own books and your brotherhood felows
say it.

Whatever you want to think pepsi...whatever you want to think. I have NEVER worshipped in a Masonic meeting. NONE of the SEVERAL Masonic Rites and Degrees I belong to have EVER held a worship service of ANY kind whatsoever.

So if Masonry is, indeed a religion...it must not be a very good one, huh? Otherwise there'd be some "worshipping" going on....and there "ain't".

Otherwise Masonry would claim to save a man's soul...and it doesn't.

Otherwise Masonry would guarantee to forgive a man's sins...and it doesn't.

Otherwise Masonry would claim to be a passport to "Paradise" or "Heaven" and it doesn't.

Hrmph! Masonry sure is a lousy religion, isn't it?

For that reason I attend the Masonic meetings at various places and fellowship with my friends there...and every Sunday as well as several days during the week I attend the Cathedral here in my home-town where I actually DO worship (since Freemasonry doesn't offer me any sort of worship service to attend like a religion should).

Other Masons go to various Churches, Temples, Mosques, etc. and some aren't members of organized religion at all.

So, I'd say if they're getting their religion from Masonry...they're not getting much are they?

Hey! Thanks for the message!

[edit on 4-12-2005 by senrak]

Now that we have setle this and we know masonari is a religion we have to know if it's evil or not cause if it's not it's okay but if it's evil well there is a problem.
Dogma from alber pike also states that lucifer is the light rather than a
negative caracter it says lucifer is a beautiful thing.
Do you agree with the dogma from albert pike?

[edit on 4-12-2005 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by pepsi78
Now that we have setle this and we know masonari is a religion we have to know if it's evil or not cause if it's not it's okay but if it's evil

well there is a problem.
Dogma from alber pike also states that lucifer is the light rather than a
negative caracter it says lucifer is a beautiful thing.
Do you agree with the dogma from albert pike?

[edit on 4-12-2005 by pepsi78]

Actually pspsi ew hanvt' sttlede anytnghig at all. hvae ew? Hmm?

apprentaleydly uyo still tnihk Mjasrmeyyefree is a relingione, don't uyou? And I've stated taht ti n'tis a regioneidn/)


(Speaking and typing in actual English now...a feat that you apparently cannot do...but Oh, you're so smart aren't you? )

You OBVIOUSLY have NOT actually READ any of Albert Pike's work where he discusses the word "Dogma" so the answer is, yes, I do agree with it...because (for the educated, thinking, literate, non-Nazi, people who've actually READ Pike's work) (unlike the people like YOU and several neo-Nazis on this list who've only read a bit of the whack-o anti-Masonic garbage that is vomited by your ilk) I know what the word "Dogma" actually means.

Someday when you're actually an adult with the ability to reason and not accept everything that you hear as fact...perhaps you will too. But I doubt it.

In the mean-time....I'll continue to worship my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in a church and attend my fraternal meetings in a Masonic Lodge where there is NO worship because it is NOT a religion, despite what those who continue to refuse to Deny Ignorance say.

TTFN.



[edit on 4-12-2005 by senrak]

Originally posted by senrak
(Speaking and typing in actual English now...a feat that you apparently cannot do...but Oh, you're so smart aren't you? )

Stop now or you will be banned.

Masonry is a naturalistic religion. They don't worship anything other than themselves and their knowledge. The worship of science, or "light" as they call it, is what they do. This is satanism in its purest form.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Now that we have setle this and we know masonari is a religion...

Mmmm. Not sure this has actually been settled. The thread is entitled 'Proof that Freemasonry is a Religion' but I'm still waiting.

While I wait, I'll let you have my checklist of 'what constitutes a religion'. To my mind a religion must have some or all of the following:

A holy book
Dogma, canon law or liturgy
An offer of salvation or eternal life
Calls itself a religion
Insists members renounce other faiths and/or Gods
Offers atonement of sins, confession, or forgiveness to members
Discussions and explorations of faith are encouraged
New members are sought through conversion

Freemasonry has none of these attributes and in some cases practices the opposite. To my mind pure logical reasoning dictates that it therefore cannot be a religion.

Check out some of my other posts on this topic.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

"Proving" or "denying" that masonry strongly leans more toward being a religion than not is semantical rock-throwing and opinionated puffery. Masonry certainly appears to be a pot of pagan, gnostic, cabalah, judeo-christian, arabic-incluenced, philosophical and sacred geometrical stew. Individual religions are accepted under a guise of equalization and unspoken agreement. Gnosticism? Maybe. There is certainly dogma and jargon and symbology and worship of a generic Grand Master Architect or some-such. There are also black robes, candles and skulls; rites, ceremonies and initiations. Esoteric knowledge and secrecy.

Religion or not, it is what it is.

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
"Proving" or "denying" that masonry strongly leans more toward being a religion than not is semantical rock-throwing and opinionated puffery.

Don't you think that's a little harsh? The topic is 'prove that it is' - I have demonstrated that it isn't, to my own personal satisfaction at least.

You and I know perfectly well that the issue rests on how one defines 'religion'. If it's defined in any way like the British judiciary defines a secret society ('secret society e.g. freemasonry) then there isn't far to go with the discussion.

But opinionated puffery? No. That's just rude.

Or are you baiting me?

Religion or not, it is what it is.

Well I can't argue with that...

Ease on up.

I'm not baiting and if anyone thinks I am then I hope they don't bite. I put "proving" in quotes and "denying" in quotes because there is no definite proof OR way to deny claims of religion or non-religion outright. It comes down to choices of words, facts, and opinions. The topic subject is flawed literally-speaking, but forgivable because I always learn something even if it's only about myself. Opinionated puffery comes from both sides and there will never be a shortness of breath.

I'm glad you liked the is-what-it-is which I meant to mean that "IT" can't be PROVEN as such and such one way or the other regarding intangibles. If someone thinks it is a religion, no "proof" will ever change his mind and vice versa.

[edit on 5-12-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
If someone thinks it is a religion, no "proof" will ever change his mind and vice versa.

Perhaps. But isn't it at least a little bit interesting that the only ones who claim that Masonry is a religion are non-Masons, while Masons themselves are unanimous in that it is not?

I mean, after all, it's a free country, and if we wanted to turn Masonry into some sort of religion, we'd have every right to. But no Mason has ever made such a claim, which leads us back instead to claims of non-Masons about an organization they have no direct experience of.

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
I'm glad you liked the is-what-it-is which I meant to mean that "IT" can't be PROVEN as such and such one way or the other regarding intangibles. If someone thinks it is a religion, no "proof" will ever change his mind and vice versa.

I think that's the nub of it.

It's hard to 'prove' anything on a discussion forum. But c'est la vie - I try

Originally posted by Masonic Light
[...]

I mean, after all, it's a free country, and if we wanted to turn Masonry into some sort of religion, we'd have every right to. But no Mason has ever made such a claim, which leads us back instead to claims of non-Masons about an organization they have no direct experience of.

It's worthwhile to keep in mind that just because one is not a mason or rosicrucian or a Sunni, that does not mean that "outsiders" are ignorant or unable to understand and recognize what is commonly and slightly uncommonly known.

Saying it IS a religion or IS NOT a religion doesn't make either case true or false. Off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure that "no Mason has ever made such a claim" is a FALSE statement. Men have left the organization and conclude for themselves that it is a religion and literature exists on the topic. Simply, to say it IS NOT a religion does not make the statement true if there is enough evidence to support a proposal of the opposite.

There is no ONE definition of religion. It was written earlier that masonry does not offer salvation, etc. Not every accepted religion does either for example, Buddhism. Sometimes a grain of salt or a full shaker is necessary when reading opinions from both sides of the dull coin. How seriously can you take a "mason'' who claims there is no religion involved in masonry? Not very IMO. The concensous seems to be that of course there is. The matter at hand is HOW MUCH is there and why and so forth and so on.



[edit on 5-12-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts


Saying it IS a religion or IS NOT a religion doesn't make either case true or false. Off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure that "no Mason has ever made such a claim" is a FALSE statement. Men have left the organization and conclude for themselves that it is a religion and literature exists on the topic.

What I meant by my remarks is that there are no Masons who, when asked what their religion is, will answer "Freemasonry".

There is no ONE definition of religion. It was written earlier that masonry does not offer salvation, etc. Not every accepted religion does either for example, Buddhism.

Actually, Buddhism does offer salvation, which it interprets as release, or "nirvana", and presents a method for obtaining it, namely, the Eightfold Path.

As to your comment about the definition of "religion", I agree, as I have before. But, in the vulgar sense, the definition of religion is an organization with religious dogma based on revelation, which guarantees some sort of salvation to its adherents. Freemasonry does not meet this definition.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
[...]
Actually, Buddhism does offer salvation, which it interprets as release, or "nirvana", and presents a method for obtaining it, namely, the Eightfold Path.

As to your comment about the definition of "religion", I agree, as I have before. But, in the vulgar sense, the definition of religion is an organization with religious dogma based on revelation, which guarantees some sort of salvation to its adherents. Freemasonry does not meet this definition.

As far as Buddhism, I meant that not all religions offer salvation at the end of our present lives. Reincarnation is not salvation.

My main reason to reply though is that isn't the promise of Enlightenment or Esoteric Knowledge a form of salvation? Masonry certainly has its own beliefs regarding sacred geometry, as an example, that along with other traits are incorporated uniquely as belief systems. Certainly when combined with black robes and adornments, these traits become unique to masonry when objectively placed in a modern Western World context.

Just an FYI: I'll be offline starting right now but will be back late tonight or tommorow. I've got a train to catch.

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
Simply, to say it IS NOT a religion does not make the statement true if there is enough evidence to support a proposal of the opposite.

Simply to say Masonry is a religion does not make the statement true either. Masonry is not my religion and no amount of evidence you present to contrary will make it my religion. Please note that I only speak for myself and in no way represent that I am speaking for Masonry as a whole. This qualification is made necessary because all too often in this venue the words of one Masons are imposed on all of Masonry and it is not my intention to impose my belief on any other Mason.

The matter at hand is HOW MUCH is there and why and so forth and so on.

The burden of proof is on you is to present a sufficent number Masons that consider Masonry to be the religion they practice. At this point it appears that the "How Much" you are measuring totals Zero. Much like your avatar you are beating your chest and yelling loudly, but to this point you have yet to present even one Mason in good standing that shares your opinion.
.

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts

As far as Buddhism, I meant that not all religions offer salvation at the end of our present lives. Reincarnation is not salvation.

When one reaches nirvana, you no longer are returned to another life. you are finished so to speak. I guess you can say that they offer salvation at the end of our life.. but their interpretation of life is different from most western ideas of it.

How about this, religion is different for each person. Some people find that taking a walk in the woods in religious. Some people find cooking a bowl of soup to be religious. So, it all depends on each person.

It is surly not a religion in the way that some people go to church, because, Masons do not present their group in that way.

Also, Sernak banned?? Wow.

-- Boat

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts

As far as Buddhism, I meant that not all religions offer salvation at the end of our present lives. Reincarnation is not salvation.

When one reaches nirvana, you no longer are returned to another life. you are finished so to speak. I guess you can say that they offer salvation at the end of our life.. but their interpretation of life is different from most western ideas of it.

I'm wondering just so I understand: It may take several lifetimes to reach nirvana, am I right about this? Thanks.