Proof that Freemasonry is a Religion

What I gather is that the god of the "freemasonry religion" is probably pretty close to Gnostic concepts (what I know of it). Without drawing conclusions regarding the left or right and dark and light, all outside religions are welcome as long as a Creator, Grand Architect, or Worksite Foreman is acknowledged. I've elaborated more on this in pa st posts but generally I'm interested in that masonic terms are used often to refer to the "god" which for some may be a fallen angel of nefarious intent or a gentle supreme creator; religions being equalized under nonspeficity and pseudoscientific theories, architectural probabilities, philosophy, mathematics and arts and sciences.

[edit on 7-12-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

Originally posted by peopledying

I have been wondering how common is the awareness of Cabala to the average practising Jew? Today all this stuff that may have been occult not long ago is all over the New Age section at Borders and the web for any commoner to see but tradionally was it considered hidden except for advances students?

I really don't know how may knew about it but traditionally you had to be a married man over 40 who have already mastered the Torah and the Talmud. To study it before would cause insanity As a side this is also part of the reason many occult groups have different levels you have to go thru before getting the "secrets".

So it is mainstream monotheists only? If so how is it that they draw on Egyptian, Sumerian ideas as well?

Not mainstream, just monotheist.

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
What I gather is that the god of the "freemasonry religion" is probably pretty close to Gnostic concepts ........

[edit on 7-12-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

Just thought I'd throw this in for fun:

The Illuminated Ones play both sides of the Christianity card to manipulate the gullible into delusion. They either utilize pseudo-historians like Acharya S (The Christ Conspiracy, The Greatest Story Ever Sold) to sell the idea that Christ never even existed, or they use their opposite, the fundamentalist 'Kingdom of God on Earth' promoters, to sell the Apocalypse/Armageddon/End Times package. Either way, the naive and gullible lose. They either lose their spiritual foundation altogether and acquiesce to the humanistic or Masonic Gnosticism ploys, or they go whole hog into cheering for Armageddon and the End Times scenario to unfold so they can "get it over with" and race into the arms of 'Jesus' who will greet them from His golden throne in the newly rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem. These End Time 'prophecies' have no relationship whatsoever to the words or earthly mission of Jesus Christ. .

Originally posted by peopledying

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
What I gather is that the god of the "freemasonry religion" is probably pretty close to Gnostic concepts ........

[edit on 7-12-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

Just thought I'd throw this in for fun:

The Illuminated Ones play both sides of the Christianity card to manipulate the gullible into delusion. They either utilize pseudo-historians like Acharya S (The Christ Conspiracy, The Greatest Story Ever Sold) to sell the idea that Christ never even existed, or they use their opposite, the fundamentalist 'Kingdom of God on Earth' promoters, to sell the Apocalypse/Armageddon/End Times package. Either way, the naive and gullible lose. They either lose their spiritual foundation altogether and acquiesce to the humanistic or Masonic Gnosticism ploys, or they go whole hog into cheering for Armageddon and the End Times scenario to unfold so they can "get it over with" and race into the arms of 'Jesus' who will greet them from His golden throne in the newly rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem. These End Time 'prophecies' have no relationship whatsoever to the words or earthly mission of Jesus Christ. .

you forgot
educate-yourself.org...

Originally posted by Cug

you forgot
educate-yourself.org...

I think you asked once "what Satanic Ritual Abuse" or was that the banned Senrak? At anyrate one can look here:

educate-yourself.org...

Can you believe even Amy Goodman (Democracy Now) is under suspicion of being a shill for NWO. A little gossip never hurt right?

Gosh even Noam Chosmsky is under fire!

educate-yourself.org... seems to take the average conspiracy site a bit deeper.
educate-yourself.org...

Some of the Masons say they don't have time to invistigate conspiracy theories.

educate-yourself.org...

This link, though it is foucsed on Noam Chomsky gives a very good condensation of many aspects of current conspiracy theory. If you truly aren't familiar with this sort of thing read it, you will find it interesting I believe.

And guess what! The word MASON does not appear!

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
What I gather is that the god of the "freemasonry religion" is probably pretty close to Gnostic concepts (what I know of it). Without drawing conclusions regarding the left or right and dark and light, all outside religions are welcome as long as a Creator, Grand Architect, or Worksite Foreman is acknowledged. I've elaborated more on this in pa st posts but generally I'm interested in that masonic terms are used often to refer to the "god" which for some may be a fallen angel of nefarious intent or a gentle supreme creator; religions being equalized under nonspeficity and pseudoscientific theories, architectural probabilities, philosophy, mathematics and arts and sciences.

2HT

I'm interested to know how, after all the consistent posting thast freemasons have made that there is no masonic god, you reach the conclusion that there is.

Originally posted by peopledying

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
I have said many times and I will say again inspite of the inquisitional form this board has taken. IMO the "secrets" that Masonry holds are secret no more.

Can this be labeled as Gnosticism, it sounds appropriate?

Im sure it
could in a loose way. It has been labeled with many names like enlightenment,
and self study.

Why don't you just admit it? It's so obvious.
You're either a christian/jew/muslim/hindu/satanist/whatever or you're a mason.

Originally posted by peopledying
[In the Hiram Key, Kinight and Lomas say "Not only are the origins of freemasonry no longer known, but the "true secrets" of the Order are admitted to have been lost, with "substituted secrets" being used in their place in Masonic ceremony.

Everyone has the right to their opinions. Just bear in mind that Knight and Lomas are not taken seriously by historians, both within and without the fraternity.

How much Cabala or alchemy or stone cutting is taught now via any method?

Many who have studied the subject believe that Masonic symbolism is Kabalistic. A really good book on the subject is Pike's "Symbolism of the Blue Degrees", which, fortunately, was just last year reprinted by the Scottish Rite Research Society, and is once again available.

I said:

Most scholarly students of occultism deny involvement with anything that could be labelled "supernatural". Rather, they would argue that occult forces are completely natural, but just haven't yet been harnassed by "profane science".

To which you responded"

Paganism?

I'm not sure what you mean. If you're asking what I meant by "profane science", that would be science as taught in the university classroom, which is actually still only an infant. Everything about nature and the universe that science doesn't currently know is "occult". After it is discovered, it ceases to be "occult" and becomes "science".

So we can agree the cabala is fundamental in Masonry?

I'm not sure I would say "fundamental", but it certainly appears that the authors of the modern ritual were at least interested in the Kabalah.

Ok let's consider Masonic power then in terms of association with world power as in for example:

I'm not sure if you live in the UK or USA; across the pond, in England, the Grand Master has traditionally been a royal. However, over there, the Grand Master is also basically an honorary office. The office of Provincial Grand Master is the "actual" Grand Master, just like the Queen is an honorary leader, but the Prime Minister is the real chief of state.

This is different here in the US, where Grand Masters are elected and are actually the head of the fraternity.

Originally posted by Trinityman

2HT

I'm interested to know how, after all the consistent posting thast freemasons have made that there is no masonic god, you reach the conclusion that there is.

My opinion at this point isn't so much that there is a "masonic god" so much as that there is a mixture of Judeo-Christian-Muslim-Gnostic-Pagan content combined with a masonic religious philosophy that is unique to freemasonry. IMO it is unique enough to deserve consideration as a religion or religious sect of some sort. The waters are muddied with the use of relative terms like Grand Architect and so forth instead of 'God' and etc.

If patents were given out for religions, I feel there is enough of a "secret sauce" present to qualify for registration.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
I'm not sure if you live in the UK or USA; across the pond, in England, the Grand Master has traditionally been a royal. However, over there, the Grand Master is also basically an honorary office. The office of Provincial Grand Master is the "actual" Grand Master, just like the Queen is an honorary leader, but the Prime Minister is the real chief of state.

You probably meant Pro Grand Master, ML. Currently the ProGM is the Marquess of Northampton. There are about 50 or 60 Provincial or District Grand Masters under the English Constitution.

Originally posted by Cug


I really don't know how may knew about it but traditionally you had to be a married man over 40 who have already mastered the Torah and the Talmud. To study it before would cause insanity As a side this is also part of the reason many occult groups have different levels you have to go thru before getting the "secrets".

Not mainstream, just monotheist.

That helps, any Jewish folk around care to comment?

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Everyone has the right to their opinions. Just bear in mind that Knight and Lomas are not taken seriously by historians, both within and without the fraternity.

Fair enough, I respect your knowledge of history more than mine. What is your opinion about what may have been lost that once existed in Masonry and I mean including both pre and post Speculative ?

Many who have studied the subject believe that Masonic symbolism is Kabalistic. ....

Ok on Kabala, a friend is sending me some books on that. They were authored by Elizabeth Caire Prophet of whom I have doubts. I believ she is Mason and Kabala friendly. Any take on her? I am actually interested in the subjects that might fall under the headings of Esoteric and Mystical including scared geometry/architecture, alchemy etc. One of your Famous Masons who does not seem to make the lists is Count Saint Germain, contemporary of Cagliostro. Credited to Germain were things like removing flaws from and enlarging precious jewles. I don't know much of this but probably you do. I'd appreciate some enlargement along these lines if you would'nt mind. I am not being subversive here, I am actually interested in hat Masonry knows about these kinds of knowledge in the past and presently.

Most scholarly students of occultism deny involvement with anything that could be labelled "supernatural". Rather, they would argue that occult forces are completely natural, but just haven't yet been harnassed by "profane science".

I'm not sure what you mean. If you're asking what I meant by "profane science", ....

I was associating Paganism with Naturalism.

I'm not sure I would say "fundamental", but it certainly appears that the authors of the modern ritual were at least interested in the Kabalah.

Do your think there is a definitive break with Kabala and other esoteric ideas pre-speculative, i.e with the Guilds? It seems so common to find continuation attributed from Templar and Rosicrution philospophies which link farther back. There are so many references to support that. Is there any reason you would think there was NOT a long running thread along these lines back to Egypt or beyond? I believe you draw on Egyptian knowledge as well. I suppose it is possible the Guilds had nothing to do with this sort of thing and in 1717 Masons jumped back over the Guilds to older times and started there leaving the Guilds out of it. This brings up the question of Esoteric or Magical skill the Guilds may have had. It that special glass and mysterious and unduplicatable building ability something Mystical or is this all fabrication?

I'm not sure if you live in the UK or USA; across the pond, in England, the Grand Master has traditionally been a royal. However, over there, the Grand Master is also basically an honorary office. The office of Provincial Grand Master is the "actual" Grand Master, just like the Queen is an honorary leader, but the Prime Minister is the real chief of state.

I am talking conspiracy again. I want to know the truth about connections between the Elite and powerful of this world (which is factual) and Masonry. These people and their power do exist and many of them are Masons. Why is this and what is the effect of this? There is a power structure in the world, I think anyone would agree, and the Masons participate in it to an uncommon degree for a non-religious organization. Saying these same elite are predominately Christian does not really detract from this line of questioning because comparing membership is a world religion is much different than broad connections to a unique fraternity. Is there any other world organization (non-religious for arguments sake) besides Masonry, that is so well represented amoung the elite and powerful? Even the Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of Jerusalem (SMOTJ) can't compare right?



[edit on 8-12-2005 by peopledying]

Originally posted by peopledying

Ok on Kabala, a friend is sending me some books on that. They were authored by Elizabeth Caire Prophet of whom I have doubts. I believ she is Mason and Kabala friendly. Any take on her?

Well first thing she = Not a mason.

I'm tempted to call Elizabeth Caire Prophet a fruitcake.. but I wont But really your not going to find anything by her that relates to anything you have been talking about.

Some suggestions.

An easy to read (And funny) book on the Qabalah is "The Chicken Qabalah" by Lon Milo Duquette it's 12 bucks on Amazon.

Mystical Qabalah by Dion Fortune is another easier read. (you can find it online for free).

The Kabbalah Unveiled by S. L. MacGregor Mathers another good one

Those are about the Hermetic Qabalah

Id also go to the source of it all.

The Sefer Yetzirah
The Sefer Bahir
The Sefer Zohar

And while I'm going on you should know there are different types of Qabalah. You have

Judaic Kabbalah
Hermetic Qabala
Christian Cabala
That Hollywood Kabbalah that is close to the Judaic version but has some major differences.
I'm sure I have missed a few, but those are the major ones.

(Note the spellings.. most of the time you can tell what type it is by the way it's spelled, but it's not a hard and fast rule)

You have voted Cug for the Way Above...

Thanks for some stuff to chew on. On a minor note:

quote: Originally posted by peopledying

Ok on Kabala, a friend is sending me some books on that. They were authored by Elizabeth Caire Prophet of whom I have doubts. I believ she is Mason and Kabala friendly. Any take on her?

Well first thing she = Not a mason.

Probably insignificant, but he said he believed her to be "Mason and Kabalah friendly", not that she was a mason. In any case, you and peopledying are skimming the top of my head at this point. I've got nothing to add at this point, yet, etc. Good stuff.

Originally posted by peopledying

Originally posted by Masonic Light

[

[edit on 8-12-2005 by peopledying]

I am hoping I will get some replies to Post Number: 1849713 (post id: 1871606)

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
Probably insignificant, but he said he believed her to be "Mason and Kabalah friendly", not that she was a mason.

Oops! yep I totally misread that

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
Probably insignificant, but he said he believed her to be "Mason and Kabalah friendly", not that she was a mason.

Oops! yep I totally misread that

Noproblem on the misread. i am trying to stay on topis with Post Number: 1849713 (post id: 1871606). care to comment. I don't know why I lost my masons at this point.???






[edit on 9-12-2005 by peopledying]

Originally posted by peopledying
Noproblem on the misread. i am trying to stay on topis with Post Number: 1849713 (post id: 1871606). care to comment. I don't know why I lost my masons at this point.???

About the only thing I can comment on is the bit about the elite in Masonry. Like I said before I don't see it, the last masonic president left office in 76.

Looks like you just have to wait.. many of the masons here who posted alot are gone now.