Proof that Freemasonry is a Religion

Originally posted by Nygdan

tylerdjp
They were, (and may be still), people who had the courage to risk certain death in order to practice their faith.

Thats not the situation in which freemasonry was created however. The concern was to not throw pearls of wisdom to swine, and not to be mean, but because it'd be wasteful, or worse, perverse.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to say that the Church and Freemasonry used secrecy for the same reasons (although the origins of Freemasonry are somewhat hazy so who knows?).

The point that I was trying to make is that secrecy isn't by itself always a bad thing if (as in the case of the early Church) it keeps people that you love from becoming entertainment for the Roman circus crowd.

I simply don't believe that in every case just because something is secret that it is automatically bad.

I'll edit my statement so it doesn't sound so much like an attack on anyone's personal beliefs;

If anyone is forced to keep secrets because of the intolerance and viciousness of others, then who are any of us to judge them.

Originally posted by senrak
Aw, Nygdan, I never said he wasn't. Hell, he's from Alabama he'd HAVE to be great (my family's from Alabama...I went to the Univ. of Alabama) ROLL TIDE!!!!!! (TC, I hope you didn't go to Auburn, btw)

Uh-ho Senrak. And we were getting on so well...

WAR EAGLE!!!!!!!

(And you know we should have made the Orange Bowl.)

Originally posted by Trinityman
Uh-ho Senrak. And we were getting on so well...
WAR EAGLE!!!!!!!

(And you know we should have made the Orange Bowl.)

Aw...geez!

Oh well...as long as the only Orange you wear has Auburn on it....none of those big "T's" that the folks just north of Alabama tend to wear (if you know what I mean)

Originally posted by tylerdjp
I'll edit my statement so it doesn't sound so much like an attack on anyone's personal beliefs;

I don't think it sounded like that to anyone. Your original post was good, the elaboration was good too, I'm just saying that secrecy isn't something that the masons did, at least initially, to protect themselves physically. Of course, with the Anti-Masonic League, and much later the nazis, that was very much a necessity.

Trinityman, Senrak
of Alabama

Alabmama must be nice. I saw that there forrest gump movie, and it sure looked nice. You all have nice accents too, and those haircuts sure must be functional in that hot weather you have.

WARDAMEAGLE, Senrak, you bumbling Baboon!
So, you went to Univ. of AL? I guess that makes you an elephant turd, right?!?
To be honest, I really don't follow that crap. It's a waste of time. You went to Alabama; that is good. Troy University for me, along with other schools, whoop-dee-do! I don't care about the football frenzy we've got down here. I love it when I here one of the fans telling an opposing fan, "Yup, we really kicked y'all's but Saturday!" I never can help myself, I have to ask the dimwit, "Really? You did? Wow! What number are you? What position do you play?" That has really endeared me to so many people!

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, now that we got the mutual pranging aside.

The worst a fundamental Christian will do to your warped attitude on life is to offer you the word of God and His Son. After that, he will pray for your wretched, hedonistic soul. It is not our position or job to do anything else, except love you. True, some of you sorry scoundrels make it very difficult to do that, causing us to want to love you to death, but we refrain! So, to claim that fundamentalism of any sort is bad is to show a total lack of understanding of Christianity. There is no middle of the road Christianity, one is either saved or one is not. One is either going to Heaven, or one is going to Hell. There is not, however, any call to arms in the Bible in reference to spreading Christianity or slaughtering those who are unbelievers; that is not our job.
Now that you have that clear, expain to me what Christ said for us to keep a secret, please.
As far as the assertion that Christ was a member of a secret club - that has already been clarified as well.
Also, as far as a Christian joining in a secret club with people of other religions and accepting their beliefs as equally good as Christianity, that goes back to the Bible suggesting God has no reason to be yoked with Ba'al.
Speaking of which, what is JahBulOn?

Are you from Alabama, Senrak, or were you here to go to school?
You're a 32nd degree, Koo-Koo-Ca-Choo, huh? Man, it sure does take a lot of thermometers to learn a few handshakes, doesn't it?

This little light of mine......

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
There is no middle of the road Christianity, one is either saved or one is not. One is either going to Heaven, or one is going to Hell.

I pray that you are right, as my spending eternity in a location free of fundamentalists would certainly be a place I call heaven. Well gotta run, I have a big night of dancing naked by the light of the moon.

Now this Heaven or Hell, in Christianity, what did these concepts look like going into the council at Nicea?

Because, you know,having the entire world believe in re-incarnation is just not intimidating, damn it!

Originally posted by Stegosaur

Originally posted by No1tovote4
One can worship whomever they wish so long as they believe that their Deity created the Universe.

Maybe this is a sticky semantics issue, but I was curious about the technicality.

Does a Mason need to believe in a "Creator Deity" (as in a personification rather than an abstraction) rather than, say, a "primordial creative force" which is perhaps a bit more impersonal but still, by its nature, is generative and is responsible for the apparent "animation" of life?

I'm having a hard time articulating my question the way I want it to come across.

I guess what I mean is does the "Higher Power" or "Supreme Being" have to be a distinctly separate, individualized entity to qualify as fulfilling this requirement of membership?

Does that make sense?

Thanks in advance.

Not necessarily. The Masons that came to your house to interview you would simply ask if you believe in a Divine Creator and would never ask what Creator you do believe in.

That the Creator is like a Mahayana Buddhist's belief that all living things are part of that same Creator would not make it any less significant nor more so if you believed in Ahura Mazda of the Zoroastrianist religion who recognizes only Ahura Mazda as a separate entity and no other rather than the Christian God that allows for a Trinity of one God.

The important part is that you believe in a Deity that Created everything.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Alabmama must be nice. I saw that there forrest gump movie, and it sure looked nice. You all have nice accents too, and those haircuts sure must be functional in that hot weather you have.

Actually I'm English and sound more like His Royal Majesty Tony Blair than Gump-o. But I do need a hair cut, and Birmingham is very pretty.

Don't know about Alabmama though

Have fun, DF1, and remember, if you go fishing tomorrow and decide to take a Southern Baptist buddy with you, make sure and take two along. Otherwise, the one Southern Baptist will drink all your beer!

*See, the point of the joke is that if there are two, neither will allow the other to see him drining a beer*

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
WARDAMEAGLE, Senrak, you bumbling Baboon!

Bumbling baboon yourself TC, it was me who said that, not senrak. It's my wife's fault, being the Aubie. Personally I'd rather settle down in front of the cricket with a nice cup of tea.

You've got to admit it though, the Tigers are a dam (sic) good football team.

Anyway...

The worst a fundamental Christian will do to your warped attitude on life is to offer you the word of God and His Son. After that, he will pray for your wretched, hedonistic soul. It is not our position or job to do anything else, except love you.

Perhaps you could comment on this hate-filled forum then? As a practicing trinitarian Christian it makes my skin crawl.

[edit on 18-8-2005 by Trinityman]

It says the page doesn't exist. Don't ask me why, I'm lucky to know how to turn a computer on!

I suppose Auburn has a good team, I'm tormented by hearing the sports talk in the avionics office. I try to block it out as I prefer to read on my lunch break, but it seems to me that sports fans are hard of hearing as they are extremely loud when talking about football.
Very bizarre, in my opinion, but they figure me the same way for not following a team.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
It says the page doesn't exist. Don't ask me why, I'm lucky to know how to turn a computer on!

Ooops! Sorry. Try again now.

Originally posted by eudaimonia
1. The Opinion of Freemasonry's Authorities

Freemasonry is a religion. While those who want to be active in both Freemasonry and the Church may argue otherwise, the fact that Freemasonry is a religion is asserted by Freemasonry's own and most widely accepted authorities:

Albert Mackey, Encyclopedia of Freemasonry:

"The religion of Freemasonry is not sectarian. It admits men of every creed within its hospitable bosom, rejecting none and approving none for his peculiar faith. It is not Judaism, though there is nothing in it to offend the Jew; it is not Christianity, but there is nothing in it repugnant to the faith of a Christian. Its religion is that general one of nature and primitive revelation handed down to us from some ancient and patriarchial priesthood--in which all men may agree and in which no men can differ." (Page 641)

Henry Wilson Coil, Masonic Encyclopedia:
"Freemasonry has a religious service to commit the body of a deceased brother to the dust whence it came and to speed the liberated spirit back to the great Source of Light. Many Freemasons make this flight with no other guarantee of a safe landing than their belief in the religion of Freemasonry."

Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma:

"It [Masonry] reverences all the great reformers. It sees Moses, Confucius, Zoroaster, Jesus of Nazareth, ... Great Teachers of Morality, and Eminent Reformers, if no more: and allows every brother of the Order to assign to each such higher and even Divine Character as his Creed and Truth require." (Page 525).

The above statements from authorities accepted and approved by Freemasonry clearly document that Freemasonry is a religion and is considered as such by knowledgeable Masons.

Awesome, I love arguing semantics.

"The religion of Freemasonry", not "The religion Freemasonry". The former means "Freemasonry's religion". For example, replace Freemasonry with Jim. "The religion of Jim" means "Jim's religion".

Last I heard, to join Freemasonry you just have to believe there's a higher power, some sort of divine deity; that means anyone from any religious background can join.

"It's religion", where It = Freemasonry. That validates my above statement.

"Belief in the religion of Freemasonry" once again, "Belief in Freemasonry's religion", which means "Belief in one's own religion", where one = any specific member of Freemasonry.

"Masonry, around whose altars the Christian, the Hebrew, the Moslem, the Brahman, the followers of Confucius and Zoroaster, can assemble as brethren and unite in prayer to the one God who is above all the Baalim, must needs leave it to each of its initiates to look for the foundation of his faith and hope to the written scriptures of his own religion.

So, people of a vast amount of religions assemble and pray together, to this divine deity - which is common amongst all of them, since to be a Mason means to believe in such a divine deity - whoever that may be.

When Masons assemble together, they meet in a "temple" to offer "prayers" to the "Great Architect of the Universe"; and "kneel" at the "sacred altar" to engage in their "sacred vows". On the "sacred altar" is a "Volume of Sacred Law" which can be a Bible, a Koran or any other holy book. What more could be required before an assembly could accurately be referred to as a religion?

Easy. It's a group of people from various religions, united in prayer to each own's god.

Hmm. If anything, Freemasonry seems rather brotherly and peaceful, hey? All these people from varying types of religion, able to pray in harmony with one another, without reprisal from anyone else?

I reckon it's fair to say it's a simple fraternity where people, from all aspects of life and religion, are welcomed and embraced to follow their own spiritual enlightenment, along with others of differing faiths.

The worst a fundamental Christian will do to your warped attitude on life is to offer you the word of God and His Son. After that, he will pray for your wretched, hedonistic soul.

to this my reply is and always will be,

Originally posted by Xar Ke Zeth
Hmm. If anything, Freemasonry seems rather brotherly and peaceful, hey? All these people from varying types of religion, able to pray in harmony with one another, without reprisal from anyone else?

I reckon it's fair to say it's a simple fraternity where people, from all aspects of life and religion, are welcomed and embraced to follow their own spiritual enlightenment, along with others of differing faiths.

Can you imagine if this concept could be instituted on a mass scale, outside the Lodges? Think about what the world would be like if everyone could get that through their thick skulls. Really, it would dramatically improve civilization as a whole and foster a genuine sense of harmony. Cooperation would naturally increase while productivity and efficiency would go through the roof.

(Oh but then the trolls would be out of a hobby, now wouldn't they?)

Great. Now that John Lennon song is stuck in my head and suddenly I have this overwhelming urge to buy everyone a Coke.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
WARDAMEAGLE, Senrak, you bumbling Baboon!

So, you went to Univ. of AL? I guess that makes you an elephant turd, right?!?

Darn right! When I die, I'm going to Bear Bryant's house!!!

To be honest, I really don't follow that crap. It's a waste of time. You went to Alabama; that is good. Troy University for me, along with other schools

Troy, huh? Had a good friend from Southeast Missouri who went there. He loved it. To be honest, I've never been on the campus.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, now that we got the mutual pranging aside.
The worst a fundamental Christian will do to your warped attitude on life is to offer you the word of God and His Son.

Not true. The worst thing a fundamentalist ever did to me was an old girlfriend who made me go to this horrible "revival" (I believe they called it) meeting. Hours and hours of hell-fire and brimstone...terror from the pulpit. Jumping, stomping, pointing, shouting. It was traumatic. ....the things we go through to make women happy. I was anything but revived.

Nope. Give me an altar with the Host and Chalice on it, a lot of incense and bells, kneelers in the pews of the Nave and a huge pipe organ blasting out something snooty and Anglican.

After that, he will pray for your wretched, hedonistic soul.

OOOOUUUUUTTTTTTTT Demon Spirit!!!!

It is not our position or job to do anything else, except love you.

[blush] aw...well I love you too TC!

True, some of you sorry scoundrels make it very difficult to do that, causing us to want to love you to death, but we refrain!

Whew! Thank goodness!

So, to claim that fundamentalism of any sort is bad is to show a total lack of understanding of Christianity.

Hmmm...sorry, have to disagree there. Jesus taught LOVE...not hell-fire and brimstone. He never used terror to convert non-believers.

There is no middle of the road Christianity,

Aha! You totally disregard the doctrine of "via Media"

one is either saved or one is not. One is either going to Heaven, or one is going to Hell.

Which one?

There is not, however, any call to arms in the Bible in reference to spreading Christianity or slaughtering those who are unbelievers; that is not our job.

Too bad we don't have a time machine to travel back in time and tell early Christians that, huh?

Now that you have that clear, expain to me what Christ said for us to keep a secret, please.
As far as the assertion that Christ was a member of a secret club - that has already been clarified as well.

Well...it's been denied...not necessarily clarified. I think it's easy enough to agree that some people believe he was an Essene, some don't....but NO ONE's ever seen his membership certificate, so....

Also, as far as a Christian joining in a secret club with people of other religions and accepting their beliefs as equally good as Christianity, that goes back to the Bible suggesting God has no reason to be yoked with Ba'al.

But, you see, that's what's entirely missed here. It's not "accepting [them] as equall good as Christianity" It's demanding that a man believe in God and letting him have his own personal convictions as to WHAT he believes ABOUT God (in other words, his beliefs are between Him and GOD) and not trying to beat Christianity into him with a Bible, see?

Speaking of which, what is JahBulOn?

With all the above kidding aside...."Jahbulon" (and it's various spellings) is a big mystery to me. Some web-sites have claimed it is the "secret word" of the Royal Arch Degree. I am a 15 year member of the Royal Arch Chapter and have held all the offices of the Chapter (except Secretary & Treasurer) including that of the Presiding Officer and I have NEVER...NOT ONCE heard the word "jahbulon" Seriously.

Masonicinfo.com has the following to say about it. I haven't read the entire article (it's pretty long) simply because the word isn't of great interest to me, having never heard it used in ANY of the numerous degrees of Freemasonry that I have received. At any rate the link is here if you're interested and I'll be glad to read it and discuss it further if you like (probably on the thread that's actually ABOUT Jahbulon)


www.masonicinfo.com...

Are you from Alabama, Senrak, or were you here to go to school?

My mother's family is from Alabama. I am from Missouri, but went to school there. ...I came awfully close to selling everything I own a few years ago and moving to Fairhope, AL, though....but I decided that I didn't want to deal with hurricanes....I'll stay here in Southeast Missouri and get blown away by the dozens of tornados we have each year.

You're a 32nd degree, Koo-Koo-Ca-Choo, huh? Man, it sure does take a lot of thermometers to learn a few handshakes, doesn't it?

That's right. Big ol' thermometers with "Jahbulon" inscribed on 'em !

Originally posted by Xar Ke Zeth
Awesome, I love arguing semantics.

"The religion of Freemasonry", not "The religion Freemasonry". The former means "Freemasonry's religion". For example, replace Freemasonry with Jim. "The religion of Jim" means "Jim's religion".

Last I heard, to join Freemasonry you just have to believe there's a higher power, some sort of divine deity; that means anyone from any religious background can join.

"It's religion", where It = Freemasonry. That validates my above statement.

"Belief in the religion of Freemasonry" once again, "Belief in Freemasonry's religion", which means "Belief in one's own religion", where one = any specific member of Freemasonry.

So, people of a vast amount of religions assemble and pray together, to this divine deity - which is common amongst all of them, since to be a Mason means to believe in such a divine deity - whoever that may be.

Whoever that may be, eh? Well, I believe I AM a divine deity. Can I join Freemasonry?

Easy. It's a group of people from various religions, united in prayer to each own's god.

I have a hard time believing that. I'm interested to know those who ARE masons what their religion is, sort of like a poll, and see how DIVERSE these religions really are within this "Fraternity".

Hmm. If anything, Freemasonry seems rather brotherly and peaceful, hey? All these people from varying types of religion, able to pray in harmony with one another, without reprisal from anyone else?

Yes, it SEEMS that way.

Look, I don't want to put down any masons here on ATS because that's not who I'm TARGETING. It's pretty evident that the masons here on ATS are good-willed, intelligent, and surprisingly, even have a great sense of humour. What I'm pointing out here is the fact that there is a group of masons on the TOP (or kept hidden) from this "Simple Fraternity" who represent a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT light and who pushes an entirely different AGENDA.

I reckon it's fair to say it's a simple fraternity where people, from all aspects of life and religion, are welcomed and embraced to follow their own spiritual enlightenment, along with others of differing faiths.

That's exactly what I see here on ATS.

Here's a quote that truly represents how I feel about this:

It simply takes a genuinely inquiring heart and mind to realize that there are countless numbers of major conspiracies within our social-system designed to manipulate the minds of the masses.

It simply takes a genuinely inquiring heart and mind to realize that they are all connected by the same controlling force.

taken from:

www.stopchildrape.info...

I'm assuming you've BEEN there already?

Or perhaps you've read this book:

Ritual Abuse



Because the evidence speaks for itself. I can't say straight up that's it's just a "simple fraternity" so firmly and confidently regarding ALL of Freemasonry on a GLOBAL SCALE.

Another problem I see is that masons here on ATS CAN'T ACCEPT even the POSSIBLITY that this is happening!

THAT bothers me.

[edit on 18-8-2005 by eudaimonia]

Originally posted by eudaimonia
What I'm pointing out here is the fact that there is a group of masons on the TOP (or kept hidden) from this "Simple Fraternity" who represent a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT light and who pushes an entirely different AGENDA.

But I am pointing out the "FACT" (you said "fact" in the above) that if they're "kept hidden" (your words again) ....then HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS???????????????

I know how. It's SPECULATION. You don't KNOW it. It's not a FACT....it's a RUMOR. It's GOSSIP.

You've never BEEN a Mason. Several of us here ARE Masons...some for a LONG TIME (myself, I've been a very active one for 16 years...and I don't just mean active in my local Lodge. I travel all over the U.S. I've been in other countries at various Masonic functions. I have a huge Masonic library. I've studied Masonry and have written about Masonry...in fact I'm working on a couple of articles now) Yet....this "hidden" group is a secret to US and you...a non-Mason, know for a FACT that they exist.

C'mon eudaimonia...use some brain-cells here.


By the way, the girl on the phone was cute...but not as cute as Batgirl over there!

[edit on 18-8-2005 by senrak]

Originally posted by senrak
But I am pointing out the "FACT" (you said "fact" in the above) that if they're "kept hidden" (your words again) ....then HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS???????????????

I meant kept hidden as in KNOWLEDGE that leaves many masons in the dark about the dark side of masonry.

How do I know?! READ THE WEBSITES! DO THE RESEARCH! It's not a secret, it's OUT IN THE OPEN!

Whether you want to believe it or not, is ANOTHER ISSUE!

I know how. It's SPECULATION. You don't KNOW it. It's not a FACT....it's a RUMOR. It's GOSSIP.

If you call evidence as rumor or speculation, then that's where we differ.

I mean just look at the video CONSPIRACY OF SILENCE and tell me that's just SPECULATION! (I bring up COS because I'm comparing the similarities of keeping certain information away from the public...Which is a common phenomenon nowadays.)

Yet....this "hidden" group is a secret to US and you...a non-Mason, know for a FACT that they exist.

It's not secret! Read up on it! The evidence is all there for all to SEE who wish to KNOW!

C'mon eudaimonia...use some brain-cells here.

I was pretty sure I was?

By the way, the girl on the phone was cute...but not as cute as Batgirl over there!

Yes