Proof that Freemasonry is a Religion

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by peopledying
Noproblem on the misread. i am trying to stay on topis with Post Number: 1849713 (post id: 1871606). care to comment. I don't know why I lost my masons at this point.???

About the only thing I can comment on is the bit about the elite in Masonry. Like I said before I don't see it, the last masonic president left office in 76.

Looks like you just have to wait.. many of the masons here who posted alot are gone now.

Ok I have the Nag hammadi Library to keep me entertained in the meanwhile.

There's a few of us still here

My two cents? The only way to truly know something about another group is to experience it yourself. I take no side on this, I only say that this is a pointless argument. I have seen it said several times that a common practice in Masonry is not to let outsiders in on their secrets, pretty much lying to anyone who is not in the "inner circle".

So, since one side is unable to present their secrets, and the other side is certain they are being lied to everytime the topic is brought up, this thread will never be resolved.

That's my two cents, don't bash me for it, it's a neutral view.

No bashing. Just want to point out (again) that the only secrets in freemasonry are the modes of recognition, and that it is against the precepts of freemasonry, which in turn are the precepts of morality, to lie. What people chose to believe is, of course, entirely up to them.

I would hope that the points I have made on this thread have given people food for thought. I am willing to be challenged on any of them, but haven't been as yet.

My point is that if someone is known to be decietful in one matter, how can we know what they are truthful in? What I'm saying is that right now, you could be lying to us, and we may never know.

Originally posted by Karu Jyrai
My point is that if someone is known to be decietful in one matter, how can we know what they are truthful in? What I'm saying is that right now, you could be lying to us, and we may never know.

You're absolutely right. I could be. Those that are really concerned can go and do some research to determine the truth or otherwise of my words. The others can just take it or leave it.

However its only facts that could be lies. My opinions are mine own. And the facts largely speaking can be verified, although different people tend to require different levels of proof.

If you think about it, everyone could be lying to you - all the time. You have to strike a balance and take a view, but invariably for the view to be meaningful you'll need to do some independent research of your own. If you don't do that, you're left not knowing who's misdirecting you and who isn't.

[edit on 11-12-2005 by Trinityman]

deleted double post

[edit on 11-12-2005 by Trinityman]

Originally posted by Trinityman
There's a few of us still here

Ok please respond to 1849713 (post id: 1871606). I am trying to keep on specifics and pertinant posts seem always to get lost in noise which makes me suspicious. I will continue this conversation if you will. I don't care to do a lot of typing for nothing.
Thanks for a specifiic response to the above mentioned post.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by peopledying
[In the Hiram Key, Kinight and Lomas say "Not only are the origins of freemasonry no longer known, but the "true secrets" of the Order are admitted to have been lost, with "substituted secrets" being used in their place in Masonic ceremony.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Everyone has the right to their opinions. Just bear in mind that Knight and Lomas are not taken seriously by historians, both within and without the fraternity.

www.knight-lomas.com...
excerprs:
It was, what appeared to us as, the utter implausibility of the old stonemason theory of origin that first prompted us to start our quest into the origins of the rituals used by Freemasons. Indeed, we had both joined Freemasonry out a sense of curiosity.

Nobody we asked could tell us where it came from. Most members seemed to simply accept that it is some sort of amateur dramatics with moral overtones, .......
....In a meticulously researched book, entitled The Origins of Freemasonry. Scotland's Century 1590 -1710 and published by the Cambridge University Press in 1988, Professor David Stevenson, then the Professor of Scottish History at the University of St Andrews produced the original lodge minutes which showed two of the leading covenantors were made Freemasons at a meeting of Edinburgh Cannongate Lodge held at Newcastle in 1641. This makes Elias Ashmole the third recorded 'making' of a Freemason in England. And shows clearly that Freemasonry started in Scotland at least fifty years before Brother Ashmole's initiation, into what can only have been a Scottish lodge.

One of the Masons made at Newcastle in 1641 was Sir Robert Moray, a founder member of the Royal Society, along with Ashmole.......

Hmm I looked up Knight and Lomas. You did not mention that they were Freemasons. Here's an editorial review regarding their book "Second Messiah: Templars, the Turin Shroud and the Great Secret of Freemasonry "

www.amazon.com...

From Independent Publisher
One hundred years ago, an amateur was allowed to photograph the Shroud of Turin. The negatives he produced of that famous image captivated the Christian world and strengthened their belief that it carried the imprint of Christ's face and body. In The Second Messiah, authors Knight and Lomas, who are Freemasons, build a meticulous case against this theory. Although they use recent scientific data that proves the linen shroud could not have predated medieval times, they go well beyond proving it is not the burial shroud of Jesus. The Second Messiah not only pinpoints the exact moment in history during which the Shroud of Turin took the imprint, it actually names the man whose image the Shroud holds.Like any good mystery story, this one begins in medias res. The opening chapters recount centuries of suppression of certain "truths" of Freemasonry by the English Grand Lodge, which led the authors to believe that secrets were being kept from other Freemasons in the service of a Christian agenda. To the uninitiated, this might seem like petty in-fighting within the membership of a clandestine club. Read on. The authors soon paint a larger history of the Knights Templar, the Crusaders who were the originators of modern Freemasonry, and their oppression and eventual eradication by the Roman Catholic Church. The torture and martyrdom of Jacques de Molay, the last Grand Master of the Knights Templar, are at the center of this remarkable book's search for historical authenticity.In their introduction, the authors propose that "History seems not so much a record of past events, more a catalogue of preferred beliefs expounded by people who have a vested interest." One of their purposes in writing this book is to show how Freemasonry's rituals and secrets were twisted and used by the Catholic Church to persecute the Knights Templar and their followers. The chapter entitled "The Tarot and the Templars" fascinates with its explanation of how the allegorical cards were used by the Knights to instruct members in the secrets of Freemasonry, and how the Church misinterpreted the meanings of the Tarot and outlawed it.At the conclusion of their well-documented search for the origins of the Shroud of Turin and the Great Secret of Freemasonry, Knight and Lomas say they reached a "new vantage point," from which they see "people huddled together with their eyes squeezed shut _ all facing inwards and repeating the same words, "This is the only highground, there can be no other."" After publication of this painstakingly researched and utterly convincing book, it will be hard for readers, Freemasons or otherwise, to keep their eyes and their minds closed.--This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.


Care to comment?








[edit on 12-12-2005 by peopledying]

Originally posted by peopledying
Ok please respond to 1849713 (post id: 1871606). I am trying to keep on specifics and pertinant posts seem always to get lost in noise which makes me suspicious.

I had a re-read of the post in question and its hard to pick out which part of it you would like me to address. In the spirit of keeping on specifics, and to avoid you having to retype stuff, perhaps you'd be kind enough to cut'n'paste the relevant portions and we'll go from there.

Trinityman, I'll do it by quoting my own post to save typing and try to clean it up.

What is your opinion about what may have been lost(knowledge, secrets, etc.) that once existed in Masonry and I mean including both pre and post Speculative ?

... I am interested in the subjects that might fall under the headings of Esoteric and Mystical including scared geometry/architecture, alchemy etc. One of your Famous Masons who does not seem to make the lists is Count Saint Germain, contemporary of Cagliostro. Credited to Germain were things like removing flaws from and enlarging precious jewles. I don't know much of this but probably you do. I'd appreciate some enlargement along these lines if you would'nt mind. I am not being subversive here, I am actually interested in hat Masonry knows about these kinds of knowledge in the past and presently.

am talking conspiracy again. I want to know the truth about connections (assoations) between the Elite and powerful of this world and Masonry. These people and their power do exist and many of them are/have been Masons. Why is this and what is the effect of this? There is a power structure in the world, I think anyone would agree, and the Masons participate in it to an uncommon degree for a non-religious organization. Saying these same elite for example are predominately Christian does not really detract from this line of questioning because comparing membership in a world religion is much different than broad connections to a unique fraternity. Is there any other world organization (non-religious for arguments sake) besides Masonry, that is so well represented amoung the elite and powerful? Even the Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of Jerusalem (SMOTJ) can't compare right?

Do your think there is a definitive break with Kabala and other esoteric ideas pre-speculative, i.e with the Guilds? It seems so common to find continuation attributed from Templar and Rosicrution philospophies which link farther back. There are so many references to support that. Is there any reason you would think there was NOT a long running thread along these lines back to Egypt or beyond? I believe you draw on Egyptian knowledge as well. I suppose it is possible the Guilds had nothing to do with this sort of thing and in 1717 Masons jumped back over the Guilds to older times and started there leaving the Guilds out of it. This brings up the question of Esoteric or Magical skill the Guilds may have had. It that special glass and mysterious and unduplicatable building ability something Mystical or is this all fabrication?

[edit on 8-12-2005 by peopledying]

OK, I''ll do the best I can here.

What is your opinion about what may have been lost(knowledge, secrets, etc.) that once existed in Masonry and I mean including both pre and post Speculative ?

Pre-speculative masonry is operative masonry, e.g. the people who actually did the building. Masonic lodges at this time were the equivalent of guilds, or unions, protecting the members and ensuring standards were upheld etc. As lodges transformed to speculative through gentlemen members joining a huge variety of influences came to bear upon the existing lodges, ultimately changing many of them permanently. As far as I am aware there is no knowledge or secrets that were lost during this transition.

One of the things that speculative masons like to do is speculate, particularly about the history and development of the order - how we got to where we are today. There has much been written, for example, about the connection between the 'ancient mysteries' and freemasonry. I believe much of this connection came into freemasonry during its transition into speculative masonry, and so whilst it cannot really be said that freemasonry eveolved from the ancient mysteries ir was certainly influenced by it. There were many other such influences on emergent freemasonry, and perhaps it could be said that element of those influences were 'lost' as they became subsumed within the developing speculative masonry.

... I am interested in the subjects that might fall under the headings of Esoteric and Mystical including scared geometry/architecture, alchemy etc. One of your Famous Masons who does not seem to make the lists is Count Saint Germain, contemporary of Cagliostro. Credited to Germain were things like removing flaws from and enlarging precious jewles. I don't know much of this but probably you do. I'd appreciate some enlargement along these lines if you would'nt mind. I am not being subversive here, I am actually interested in hat Masonry knows about these kinds of knowledge in the past and presently.

I'm afraid I know nothing of Count Saint Germain or Cagliostro, my studies have obviously not taken me in that direction. If he was a freemason he was probably a member of one of the continental grand lodges, and as you may or may not be aware 'continental' freemasonry is quite different in many ways to the brand you are more familiar with. Many would argue that it's not freemasonry at all, although my assessment wouldn't be as harsh.

am talking conspiracy again. I want to know the truth about connections (assoations) between the Elite and powerful of this world and Masonry. These people and their power do exist and many of them are/have been Masons. Why is this and what is the effect of this? There is a power structure in the world, I think anyone would agree, and the Masons participate in it to an uncommon degree for a non-religious organization. Saying these same elite for example are predominately Christian does not really detract from this line of questioning because comparing membership in a world religion is much different than broad connections to a unique fraternity. Is there any other world organization (non-religious for arguments sake) besides Masonry, that is so well represented amoung the elite and powerful? Even the Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of Jerusalem (SMOTJ) can't compare right?

It is commonly said that because many masons have reached positions of power and influence in society that this cannot be a coincidence. However, with many millions of freemasons in America, spread largely over the middle classes, it would be very suprising if there were not a large number of masons represented at all levels of society. What I would disagree with is how these people are participating. Based on what I know of freemasonry, as a benevolent non-political agenda-free organization it is quite inconceivable to me that these individuals are acting in their capacity as freemasons, or on behalf of freemasonry. The reality is they are acting on their own behalf, as individuals.

If politics was discussed behind closed doors in a lodge room by 'power brokers' then you might have reason to distrust freemasonry. But discussion of politics is explicitly banned in freemasonry, as is religion, because that is not the nature of the organization.

Do your think there is a definitive break with Kabala and other esoteric ideas pre-speculative, i.e with the Guilds? It seems so common to find continuation attributed from Templar and Rosicrution philospophies which link farther back. There are so many references to support that. Is there any reason you would think there was NOT a long running thread along these lines back to Egypt or beyond? I believe you draw on Egyptian knowledge as well. I suppose it is possible the Guilds had nothing to do with this sort of thing and in 1717 Masons jumped back over the Guilds to older times and started there leaving the Guilds out of it. This brings up the question of Esoteric or Magical skill the Guilds may have had. It that special glass and mysterious and unduplicatable building ability something Mystical or is this all fabrication?

As I said, we like to speculate. There are many many ideas from many freemasons of how it all developed, and these typically build on the work of previous authors. To dive in on some of these works without context can be misleading and so the best place to start is to study the current mainstream thinking which will allow you to best place the developmental thoughts. Many of these masonic authors with personal theories of how the Craft developed will probably assume some knowledge of the general position. In order to understand the 'new' theory you must know the 'old' one.

I would recommend Freemasons Guide and Compendium (Bernard Jones) as an excellent starting point. Much work has been done in this area by QCCC and other study groups as well. I posted some online resources in another thread but I'll give them again here:

www.thefreemason.com...

www.freemasons-freemasonry.com...

There are also many excellent US masonic sites, most notably...

freemasonry.bcy.ca...

...but it seems there are people who believe that the last place you should go to find out about masonry is masonic sites. The reality is, that as far as masonic history goes, they are the best ones.

I hope all this information helps. Feel free to follow up.

I am off topic here really as I am not trying to prove the thread assertion. For this reason I started a new thread where Trinityman has already joined me. I would like to respond a bit first to the time TM has given replying to my questions then hopefully you will rejoin me at:
The Real Freemasonry told by Masons (Dormer)

www.abovetopsecret.com...'

Originally posted by Trinityman
OK, I''ll do the best I can here.

One of the things that speculative masons like to do is speculate,..... There has much been written, for example, about the connection between the 'ancient mysteries' and freemasonry. ......and so whilst it cannot really be said that freemasonry eveolved from the ir was certainly influenced by it.

After reading at www.templarhistory.com... I see it is obvious there are a lot of gray areas for example of the overlap between Templars and Masons and likely even well-versed Masons would not know for sure the exact truth of this old history. The problem on ATS is seemed there has been an avoidance of references to "ancient mysteries" involvement. I hope to go into this more on the other above mentioned thread.

I'm afraid I know nothing of Count Saint Germain or Cagliostro, my studies have obviously not taken me in that direction. If he was a freemason he was probably a member of one of the continental grand lodges, and as you may or may not be aware 'continental' freemasonry is quite different in many ways to the brand you are more familiar with. Many would argue that it's not freemasonry at all, although my assessment wouldn't be as harsh.

I was hoping Masonic Light would add something here. I know he knows something of this very interesting Masonic period.

I also have said in the past it it difficut to discuss Masonry without specifying time and place and here is proof of that.

It is commonly said that because many masons have reached positions of power and influence in society....it would be very suprising if there were not a large number of masons represented at all levels of society. What I would disagree with is how these people are participating.

What I meant was that if we were for example to find out the many of High Royalty of England who are honary orregular Masons are involved in some wicked globalization at the detrement of the worlds masses, well how should we make an indictment (or not) of Masonry via this association?

If politics was discussed behind closed doors in a lodge room by 'power brokers' then you might have reason to distrust freemasonry. But discussion of politics is explicitly banned in freemasonry, as is religion, because that is not the nature of the organization.

This doesn't mean the discussion would be above board ala Bilderburg.

I hope all this information helps. Feel free to follow up.

I plan to move myself over to the other thread as I plan to go off topic here. Please join me.

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