POLITICS: Sheehan Attacks Israel, Refuses to Pay Taxes

Originally posted by Muaddib

Isn't he the one that said she was going against her son's wishes and that he had talked to his son and said he agreed with president Bush?

No the one that made the statement I am talking about was Sheenan's husband, of that I am sure.

Originally posted by Odium
He got rid of them in the 1990's.

Think about;
U.N. says he can't have them.
His Military was smacked in line and he had a choice.
Do as you are told and live a nice life starving your people or die/get put to death by the Government that will follow or by a bomb.

We all know which he picked.

Not true. He denied weapons inspectors access to several areas and would only allow them in some areas if the Iraqi government had a week of advance knowledge of the inspection, and even then he did not allow them to supervise some areas.

Also several security cameras that were installed by the weapons inspectors dissapeared, we covered this story some months back. (or a year back)

There were also the discrepancies in the reports and the claims from Saddam's regime that they had gotten rid of several tons of chemicals without the weapon inspectors supervising this. They were supposed to get rid of this material with the supervision of the weapons inspectors and they didn't.

Originally posted by Odium
Saddam didn't need any weapons, he let his army rot because he had the lovely U.N. protection. Once the Kurdish Militants were destroyed there was no more internal problems. So he made a quick-buck off of selling the weapons to Syria.

You are assuming there. If "he didn't need any weapons" how come we found empty chemical missiles which were new and he was not supposed to have?

How come he was able to fire 4-5 scud missiles and Al Samaud missiles (which exceeded the 93 mile limit) that were banned from Iraq and he was supposed to have gotten rid off for over 10 years?

How come we found tons of hidden documents dealing with wmd programs and Iraqi scientists were told to hide centrifuge parts for a time when the west stopped looking for a wmd program in Iraq?....

How come we found so much evidence which contradicts your statement that he had gotten rid of everything and he was a "good boy and following the sanctions imposed by the UN"?....

Originally posted by Odium
However the fact still stands, the U.S. used it as a reason to go to war. If he got rid of them 6months before, two months before or 10 years he did not have them. So the reason isn't valid.

If that's what you think it is fine but it is not true, the facts do not back up your claims.


Anyways, Astronomer68 is right. This dead horse has been beaten too many times, and we are again off topic.

[edit on 17-8-2005 by Muaddib]

[edit on 17-8-2005 by Muaddib]

Yes:
they found a few (wasn't it like 6?) missiles that could be used to hold chemical weapons. They never linked the store room to the Iraqi Governemnt. Would the Insurgency not also be using similar rockets? But also on another note if he had them and knew about them, they would have been used.

He fired what 20scuds? A few dozen is nothing major. It's not even a problem to anyone in the region. At best he could have killed a few thousand people - this is not a "major threat" like we were told and even so he could have got those from Iran, Syria, a few days before free (why they didn't work) to cause the American Government problems. Would you put it passed them?

He had a few minor if that sanctions. How many major sanctions has Mugabe broken and gotten away with?

The idea that it was to uphold the U.N. Resolution's are a joke. How many Nations break these resolutions more often than Saddam ever did and get away with it?

Told by who? At least one scientist said he took them back himself once it was shut down. His lifes work. Not that hard to believe is it?

We found documents, in peoples houses and are told to believe Saddam himself told them to do it? Or that he told his generals to hide them in peoples houses instead of the secure bunkers he had? Where they could have been destroyed if anything like this happened? You do not also think these Generals would have told the Scientists if anything like this happened to destory them if it was on their orders?

They said Saddam was a major threat.

How? To who?

If he was a Major Threat would he have not used these [chemical and biological] weapons against the American Army? It doesn't add up that he would let them invade knowing he would be captured in Iraq - which he must have done [ with that sort of money on his head].

If you wish to uphold the U.N. and it's Resolution you have to uphold them all not just the ones you pick and choose.

www.action-for-un-renewal.org.uk...
That's just one example of abuses by a Nation and breaking of several U.N. Resolutions.

Originally posted by Odium
Yes:
they found a few (wasn't it like 6?) missiles that could be used to hold chemical weapons. They never linked the store room to the Iraqi Governemnt. Would the Insurgency not also be using similar rockets? But also on another note if he had them and knew about them, they would have been used.

Ok, even thou we are going off topic again i will respond to this.

First, we found 11 of those empty chemical warheads. The only purpose of those was for holding chemicals, not for holoding candy or anything else, that's why they are called "empty chemical warheads. There was no other use for them except as wmd.

This was a totalitarian government, pretty much everything that happened there was known by Saddam, and could you please present evidence that there was no way those tons of documents relating with wmd and other wmd related material were owned by a couple of scientists who decided to keep tons of evidence about wmd programs because they just decided to do so?....

Originally posted by Odium
He fired what 20scuds? A few dozen is nothing major. It's not even a problem to anyone in the region. At best he could have killed a few thousand people - this is not a "major threat" like we were told and even so he could have got those from Iran, Syria, a few days before free (why they didn't work) to cause the American Government problems. Would you put it passed them?

He shouldn't have had even one of those. He had plenty of time to have gotten rid of them.

I also have to wonder for what reason a person would keep tons of wmd documents for.....is not like that one person can finance a wmd program....unless you want to argue that....

Originally posted by Odium
He had a few minor if that sanctions. How many major sanctions has Mugabe broken and gotten away with?

There were more "than a few sanctions" which he broke. His army was also shooting American and Brittish aircraft who were enforcing the no-fly zone. That by itself is a declaration of war against the US and Brittain. Appart from the rest of the evidence we found the Russian government itself was telling us and presenting evidence that since 9/11 and up to the war in Iraq Saddam was planning on making terrorist attacks in the US. We had more than enough reasons for ousting Saddam's regime.

Originally posted by Odium
The idea that it was to uphold the U.N. Resolution's are a joke. How many Nations break these resolutions more often than Saddam ever did and get away with it?

Not really, what is a joke is the opinion of some that it was alright for Saddam to break UN resolutions....

Originally posted by Odium
Told by who? At least one scientist said he took them back himself once it was shut down. His lifes work. Not that hard to believe is it?

Now, you need to present proof of that because when this story was covered the only scientist we heard about claimed that he was ordered by the Iraqi military to hide those centrifuge parts and not that " he decided to keep those parts himself."

Originally posted by Odium
We found documents, in peoples houses and are told to believe Saddam himself told them to do it? Or that he told his generals to hide them in peoples houses instead of the secure bunkers he had? Where they could have been destroyed if anything like this happened?

Again....why in the world would one person want to keep tons of wmd related material.....one person cannot fund a wmd program.....

Originally posted by Odium
You do not also think these Generals would have told the Scientists if anything like this happened to destory them if it was on their orders?

You are assuming they were told to destroy them when the evidence shows the contrary.

Originally posted by Odium
They said Saddam was a major threat.

Yes, Saddam was a threat and he was a threat to the US not only the region.

Originally posted by Odium
If he was a Major Threat would he have not used these [chemical and biological] weapons against the American Army? It doesn't add up that he would let them invade knowing he would be captured in Iraq - which he must have done [ with that sort of money on his head].

Again you are making assumptions. He could very well have thought that if he was able to hide the stockpiles of wmd and not enough evidence was found about a wmd program that he would be left in power. He knw that if he used at this time any wmd the world would be against him.

You are also assuming that he had kept those stockpiles of wmd to the last minute pointing ready to be used when according to Russian ex-military defectors the Russians and regimes such as Saddam had plans ready to hide wmd when the west got too close to finding them. *refer to Sarindar plan.

Originally posted by Odium
If you wish to uphold the U.N. and it's Resolution you have to uphold them all not just the ones you pick and choose.

www.action-for-un-renewal.org.uk...
That's just one example of abuses by a Nation and breaking of several U.N. Resolutions.

When it comes to Israel it is known that many of the UN countries side with Palestine.... You only have to look at the last reports that UN funded propaganda in Palestine that were put up all over the streets and said, "Today Gaza, tomorrow Jerusalem and the west bank."

I guess we know know why Kofi annan claims that having HAMAS agents working for the UN is not a bad thing huh?.....

The letter followed an allegation made in a New York Times story that appeared today. The article by James Bennet, which appeared in a Page A1 piece about the Gaza withdrawal, reports on a banner being flown in Gaza by the Palestinian Authority reading: "Gaza today, the West Bank and Jerusalem Tomorrow." The article goes on to say that "a tag line said the banner was paid for by the United Nations Development Program" (p. A8).

Excerpted from.
releases.usnewswire.com...



[edit on 17-8-2005 by Muaddib]

.
Muaddib,
You should also keep in mind that Saddam for security reasons liked and/or needed to have Iran believe he still was a credible threat.

Posturing, for a guy who has used force to intimidate an entire nation and threats as weapons against other nations, is simply second nature.

Its like National strategic poker,
Bluffing is just a part of the game.

With the world turned against him, I doubt anyone would have done anything about Iran attacking Iraq.

After the Iran-Iraq war there was nothing resolved, only a seething hatred for each other.

He had political and survival reasons, both internal and external to have people believe he had weapons and military might.

Without that threat and fear, he was toast.
.

[edit on 17-8-2005 by slank]

Yes, many Nations side with Palestine as many do with Israel.

Your point being? That's what Nation's do?

Many sided with America over Iraq?

Think about it for a moment;
11 empty chemical weapons missiles. What is he going to do with 11 missiles? You would win no modern war or war in the region with such a small number - especially if they were empty.

Dr. Mahdi Obeidi since he "gave" these items to America that he hidden is excempt from any charges and is under protection by the American Government outside of Iraq along with all of his family.

So far the reports of these "terror cells" have actually resulted in no court cases or charges brought against anyone nor have they ever prooven he was going to. But then again what is the difference between this and what the C.I.A. did in Cuba?

The point is also that many Nation's break them and get away with it. Why pick Saddam who has not been doing as much damage as Mugabe has recently? Who last I checked is still allowed to have WMD.

“There was no point in trying to revive thisprogram” former bomb designer Sabah Abdul Noor, of Baghdad’s Technology University, said in November. “There was no material, no equipment, no scientists. Scientists were scattered and under the eyes of inspectors. To do a project, you have to be together."

www.ceip.org...='iraqi%20scientist%20documents%20wmd'

Now how was he a major threat again? And to who? He had only a hand-full of miles. His tanks, air force and navy were non-existant. His ground force in shambels. He could not have invaded anywhere even if he wanted too so he wasn't a threat.

His miles couldn't reach any major targets or even kill anyone. (Did they?)

You also have to remember what the Russian's have got out of this. Wasted American money. Russia are still a major power in the World and the KGB still has many older Russian Members who remember the "Glory Days". I would not put it passed them to give mis-leading information knowing that Iraq would turn into such a problem.

As for the idea he would be put back into power who are you kiding? It was made clear that they wanted to put him on trial for War Crimes. Saddam knows he is as guilty as sin and will be put to death unless the American occupation fails. The only way for it to fail is to cause massive loss of life and give such weapons to the terrorists.

Also if he had them why would he have not given them to terrorists to use on Israel?

It really doesn't add up that he;
Hates Israel and American, has stores of WMD that can hit British targets in 45minutes, is funding terrorists and then never botheres to use WMD?

"Al Qaeda-connected terror chief Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and other terrorists are apparently trying to recruit Iraqi weapons of mass destruction experts and resources for possible future attacks against the U.S.-led coalition, the head of the Iraq Survey Group told FOX News Thursday. " www.foxnews.com...

You would think they would already know who they are and have been working with them? Since Al Qaeda and the Iraq Government were developign weapons together? Right?

After all Saddam did say he would liberate Jerusalum so why not give the terrorists these weapons to use on the Israeli Army?

Also couple it with the fact Iraq asked the UNMOVIC several times if it could buy things like neutron generators and servo valves. They were slowly complying. It took what 38years for Israel to agree to the Gaza withdraw? Why were they given so long and Iraq not?

If it is abotu the U.N. Resolution they can't pick and choose them. I would have no problem with upholding the U.N. REsolutions but the clear problem is they are not being upheld.

"After a summer visit to Iraq, Republican senators said U.S. searchers had uncovered solid evidence of weapons programs. But Democrats on the same trip said the evidence was not definitive. No one provided details."
www.capitolhillblue.com...

"US Secretary of State Colin Powell says there is "no hard evidence" to suggest that Iraqi stocks of weapons of mass destruction were hidden in neighboring Syria before the U.S. and coalition forces attacked last year."
www.arabicnews.com...

www.iraqwatch.org...

It looks like the C.I.A. report says otherwise about him having weapons. In fact, that he was waiting for sanctions to be lifted before he would try again.

So even if they did get rid of the documents, like you said no one man can build a WMD program. None of them have the funding or the ability at the time.

They were waiting for sanctions to be lifted, which never would have been.

"Saddam’s primary goal from 1991 to 2003 was to have UN sanctions lifted, while maintaining the security of the Regime. He sought to balance the need to cooperate with UN inspections—to gain support for lifting sanctions—with his intention to preserve Iraq’s intellectual capital for WMD with a minimum of foreign intrusiveness and loss of face. Indeed, this remained the goal to the end of the Regime, as the starting of any WMD program, conspicuous or otherwise, risked undoing the progress achieved in eroding sanctions and jeopardizing a political end to the embargo and international monitoring."

I'll go through the rest of the C.I.A. documents I have when I get a chance but none of them can give proof that he had a program and the majority seem to think he was waiting for the sanctions to be removed.

www.iraqwatch.org...

450 pages long, but give it a go.

It's a worthwhile read.

Edit:

Here are a list.

www.iraqwatch.org...

Good site as well, gives every document from many Governments.

[edit on 17/8/2005 by Odium]

I can't believe you GP and Dj, you want her executed for being a traitor?(That is the punishment)

She loses her son, says that pays her taxes since no amount of money is worth more then a human life, so you want her killed? I can't believe the Kool Aid you Neo-Cons drink could be so powerful. Of course you probably still believe Iraq had something to do with 9/11 and had connections with terrorists....(Which they weren't/didn't)

According to this,

. The ongoing plan is to get Limbaugh, O’Reilly, Couilter and Drudge and his pin headed friends to trash her. Rove calls this the “Grass-Roots Response” task force and orders have been issued to the Friends in the Media to go ahead. Faked interviews with obscure White House staffers disguised as grieving parents of the recently killed in Iraq have been going on in the basement for a week now and I happened to blunder into one. If it wasn’t so sick, it would be funny. This is just like something out of ‘Wag the Dog’ but in the case of Rove, it would be ‘Grease the Pig.’ Then these faked sound bites are sent off to paid media employees at the various networks: CNN, FOX, NBC and others to be played on prime time as “growing public outrage” at the “lies and self-seeking” efforts on the part of Ms. Sheehan and a “gang of left-wing Bush haters” and “anti-military left-wingers.”

I have seen one of the scripts that O’Reilly is supposed to read, and will read, believe me, and it reads like something Dr. Goebbels would have trouble with it’s so fake. Rumor around here has it (Bush is not here but his any friends are) is that he was ranting around his very bad taste “ranch house” that he wanted “that goddam bitch” arrested but since the media is now involved, the sight of Secret Service goons dragging off a Gold Star mother in front of the cameras is too much for anyone else (but Bush and Rove) to take. The Rove people, via the FBI, have been dredging the files looking for something…anything…bad to use against her. The slobbering Drudge would be given reports of jay walking, overdue library books, bad school grades or whatever these perverts can dig up. Well, to those of you fools who voted for him, George W. Bush is your man, not ours and you are stuck with him. You can wear the little flags or the crosses in your lapel but you still stink and shine like a dead mackerel in the moonlight.”
www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a1762.htm

All is going to be fine.

Originally posted by dgtempe
According to this,

. The ongoing plan is to get Limbaugh, O’Reilly, Couilter and Drudge and his pin headed friends to trash her. Rove calls this the “Grass-Roots Response” task force and orders have been issued to the Friends in the Media to go ahead. Faked interviews with obscure White House staffers disguised as grieving parents of the recently killed in Iraq have been going on in the basement for a week now and I happened to blunder into one. If it wasn’t so sick, it would be funny. This is just like something out of ‘Wag the Dog’ but in the case of Rove, it would be ‘Grease the Pig.’ Then these faked sound bites are sent off to paid media employees at the various networks: CNN, FOX, NBC and others to be played on prime time as “growing public outrage” at the “lies and self-seeking” efforts on the part of Ms. Sheehan and a “gang of left-wing Bush haters” and “anti-military left-wingers.”
............

Riiiiight....and I guess nothing of what you just ...claimed is political propaganda made up by the left wing radicals with not even one iota of evidence except "left wing rumors" intertwined with insults and more rethoric from the radical left.....

[edit on 17-8-2005 by Muaddib]

Rush and Sean are already busy at work.

But they always are. I posted what Moveon.org said, and we'll see if this takes place or not.

IMNSHO (In-My-Not-So-Humble-Opinion) This woman is right on track here. If it weren't for the Israeli occupation of Palestine and our occupational forces in the middle east there wouldn't be near the level of terrorisim. They wouldn't even have reason to suicide bomb anyone if they were left alone. The Arabs and Persians have lived on that land for Tens of thousands of years. For us to walk in there fifty-seven some odd years ago and declare the land theirs was foolish at best and genocidal at worst. Surrounding the Jewish people on all sides with people who used to occupy the land.

I think if we were all REAL Americans not blinded by the Corporate Media that is inherently controlled by the Military Industrial Complex there would be hundreds of millions of people lined right up along side Cindy Sheehan. To those of you calling her nuts or even treasonous I'm dumbfounded at how deep you can bury your head in the sand. I guess all that oil has made you all mad just like during the gold rush... oil fever.

We're (US/Britian) using religious and moral values to cover up for the fact that we are attempting to basically take over the world. Some of the "Neo-Cons" even proclaim it boldly in these forums and then promptly call us "Daisy Walkers" when we all (in rather large numbers I might add) know that murder is wrong no matter the justification. Sure Cindy Sheehan's son went off to war. But, what about the way in which he was tricked into believing what he was doing was right? I personally never fell for it.

How large must the stinking pile of evidence grow, supporting the fact that 9/11 was an inside job used as an excuse to trash our civil rights and start what George Bush called a "Crusade" because when it really boils down to it, this is all just about power, oil and of course $$$.

[edit on 17-8-2005 by DjOsiris]

Originally posted by Odium
Yes, many Nations side with Palestine as many do with Israel.

Your point being? That's what Nation's do?

Not when they are using UN money for Palestinian propaganda which sides with HAMAS, who btw proclaimed that they have been able to get Gaza only because of their violent attacks.

No wonder their name HAMAS means violence in Hebrew.

Then you get crazy idiots like Kofi Annan claiming that just because some of the UN workers are HAMAS members and because they belong to HAMAS doesn't make them terrorists.....

Originally posted by Odium
Many sided with America over Iraq?

Think about it for a moment;
11 empty chemical weapons missiles. What is he going to do with 11 missiles? You would win no modern war or war in the region with such a small number - especially if they were empty.

Think about it, even when he was able to hide the stockpiles of wmd, as many iraqi defectors and former Russian military personel kept saying before the war, there will always be some evidence left behind. That's exactly what was found, evidence of wmd programs.

Not only that, but the idiots in the IAEA who thought that tagging wmd related materials such as yellow cake, etc, would be enough to stop a crazy idiot like Saddam from ever using those chemicals. The UN resolutions called for the destruction of all these materials not keeping them in Iraq right at the dictator's footsteps and puting a tag that even a little child could break.....

Originally posted by Odium
Dr. Mahdi Obeidi since he "gave" these items to America that he hidden is excempt from any charges and is under protection by the American Government outside of Iraq along with all of his family.

You forget the following part. This was reported by CNN.

The parts, with accompanying plans, were unearthed by Iraqi scientist Mahdi Obeidi who had hidden them under a rose bush in his garden 12 years ago under orders from Qusay Hussein and Saddam Hussein's then son-in-law, Hussein Kamel.

Excerpted from.
www.cnn.com...

Originally posted by Odium
So far the reports of these "terror cells" have actually resulted in no court cases or charges brought against anyone nor have they ever prooven he was going to. But then again what is the difference between this and what the C.I.A. did in Cuba?

What in the world are you talking about "reports of terror cells"?.....

First of do not drag Cuba into this, I am Cuban-american btw, because Cuba has nothing to do with this.

Originally posted by Odium
The point is also that many Nation's break them and get away with it. Why pick Saddam who has not been doing as much damage as Mugabe has recently? Who last I checked is still allowed to have WMD.

Because Saddam has in many instances talked about his fight against the US, he was aiding and abeting terrorists that were attacking American citizens and he was planning terrorist attacks against the US, unless the Russians were lying throught their teeth. I tend to think they kept part of the information to themselves, like who provided the funds for such attacks and the weapons, etc.....

Originally posted by Odium
“There was no point in trying to revive thisprogram” former bomb designer Sabah Abdul Noor, of Baghdad’s Technology University, said in November. “There was no material, no equipment, no scientists. Scientists were scattered and under the eyes of inspectors. To do a project, you have to be together."

www.ceip.org...='iraqi%20scientist%20documents%20wmd'

Washington Times | October 2, 2003
By Ion Mihai Pacepa

On March 20, Russian President Vladimir Putin denounced the U.S.-led
"aggression" against Iraq as "unwarranted" and "unjustifiable." Three
days later, Pravda said that an anonymous Russian "military expert" was
predicting that the United States would fabricate finding Iraqi weapons
of mass destruction. Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov immediately
started plying the idea abroad, and it has taken hold around the world
ever since.

As a former Romanian spy chief who used to take orders from the Soviet
KGB, it is perfectly obvious to me that Russia is behind the evanescence
of Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction. After all, Russia
helped Saddam get his hands on them in the first place.

Excerpted from.
www.casi.org.uk...

Originally posted by Odium
Now how was he a major threat again? And to who? He had only a hand-full of miles. His tanks, air force and navy were non-existant. His ground force in shambels. He could not have invaded anywhere even if he wanted too so he wasn't a threat.

His miles couldn't reach any major targets or even kill anyone. (Did they?)

Russian President Vladimir Putin says that after the 9/11 attacks Moscow warned Washington that Saddam Hussein was planning attacks on the US.
............
Mr Putin said he had no information the Iraqi ex-leader was behind any attacks.
...........
He disputed the preliminary findings of a US commission investigating the 9/11 attacks on Washington and New York that found no "credible evidence" of a relationship between the two.

Excerpted from.
news.bbc.co.uk...

Originally posted by Odium
You also have to remember what the Russian's have got out of this. Wasted American money. Russia are still a major power in the World and the KGB still has many older Russian Members who remember the "Glory Days". I would not put it passed them to give mis-leading information knowing that Iraq would turn into such a problem.

In part I agree with you, but you see, the Russians made sure there was enough evidence left for the US and coalition to attack Iraq, they provided the wmd and they provided the help to hide and get rid of most of the evidence when the west got too close. Russian military defectors living in the US and the UK have been telling us about this, and some other things, for a long time.

Not only that but even the Russians themselves stated that they were learning a lot from the war in Iraq about the US military and they were able to improve their own military because of this.

Izvestia
May 8, 2003
ON THE SCALES OF IRAQ
The war in Iraq has some lessons for Russian military reformers
Author: Andrei Lebedev
[from WPS Monitoring Agency, www.wps.ru/e_index.html]

RUSSIAN MILITARY REFORMERS OUGHT TO LEARN SOME LESSONS FROM THE WAR ON IRAQ. THE RUSSIAN ARMED FORCES ARE INEFFICIENT AND SHOULD BE REFORMED AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. THERE SHOULD BE A FOCUS ON A PROFESSIONAL MILITARY, MOBILE RAPID RESPONSE FORCES, HIGH TECHNOLOGY, AND JOINT COMMAND.

Excerpted from.
www.cdi.org...

That would be one good reason for them to claim to the world there was no reason for the US going to war with Iraq, and at the same time giving the US evidence (bait which they helped put in place
) that Saddam was planning terrorist attacks in the US.

Then again you have to ask exactly what are the reasons behind most of Russia's movements. They are right now doing joint military exercises with a country which has proclaimed that a war with the Us is inevitable, China.

Originally posted by Odium
As for the idea he would be put back into power who are you kiding? It was made clear that they wanted to put him on trial for War Crimes. Saddam knows he is as guilty as sin and will be put to death unless the American occupation fails. The only way for it to fail is to cause massive loss of life and give such weapons to the terrorists.

Those are claims you are making. i am not sure exactly why he did not use any wmd, i can only guess, and unless you knew exactly what ws in his mind you are only making a guess.

Originally posted by Odium
Also if he had them why would he have not given them to terrorists to use on Israel?

It really doesn't add up that he;
Hates Israel and American, has stores of WMD that can hit British targets in 45minutes, is funding terrorists and then never botheres to use WMD?

What if he didn't have yet the means to deliver en mass those wmd to the US or UK, except through terrorist means. He would have waited until he was certain he would win, and he had made many times clear that the Gulf War was still ongoing years after it had ended.

Originally posted by Odium
Also couple it with the fact Iraq asked the UNMOVIC several times if it could buy things like neutron generators and servo valves. They were slowly complying. It took what 38years for Israel to agree to the Gaza withdraw? Why were they given so long and Iraq not?

Whether you agree or not Israel was a legal country, and Palestine was never signed in as a country, as a matte of fact it only exists on maps and in the minds of Palestinians, as well as most of the world who do not know that Palestine was never signed in legally as a country.

The Israelis were legally in their own land and the government gave it up, except that most Israeli civilians living in Gaza protested against such move..

Originally posted by Odium
If it is abotu the U.N. Resolution they can't pick and choose them. I would have no problem with upholding the U.N. REsolutions but the clear problem is they are not being upheld.

UN resolutions are not always right. Most countries agreed with the Iraq sanctions, quite a few member countries of the UN disagreed with some of the other moves the UN has made.

Originally posted by Odium
"After a summer visit to Iraq, Republican senators said U.S. searchers had uncovered solid evidence of weapons programs. But Democrats on the same trip said the evidence was not definitive. No one provided details."
www.capitolhillblue.com...
..............

Ruaridh Arrow's exclusive interview with UN Weapons inspector Wyn Bowen, prior to the US led invasion of Iraq.

..................................
Did you find anything significant during your missions?

We didn't find anything hugely significant but we found a lot of low level things that didn't add up. For example, you'd find a document in an establishment which was supposed to have nothing to do with the missile programme. It might have high level technical information on missile range and payload capability, but the excuse would be, `no no no, it's scrap paper. We have a paper shortage!'

How were the sites you inspected chosen?

Some were well-known parts of the missile programme. Occasionally we'd visit sites which were not obvious. Some of those locations would have been passed from US satellite imagery and signals intelligence.

What tactics did the Iraqis employ to inhib­it the inspections?

Up until mid-1999 the weapons inspectors took everything the Iraqis said on face value until Hussein Kamel, one of Saddam's son-in-laws, defected. He spilled the beans about the Iraqi weapons concealment programme. Kamal told western intelligence about a gas centrifuge, used to enrich uranium, which was being hidden on a chicken farm. The weapons inspectors found and destroyed the centrifuge but satellite imagery, showed that a large number of documents were removed from the site before inspectors got there. The UN realised that the Iraqi regime was determined to preserve its weapons of mass destruction and the inspections became more of a forensic process. The Iraqis mainly employed low level tactics like delaying access to sites. If you wanted to poke around the director general's office in a factory You'd get the whole party line about how this was unacceptable and would endanger national security.

Excerpted from.
www.studentunderground.co.uk...

"Resolution 181 (II) (1947) partitioned Palestine into an Arab and a Jewish state, with Jerusalem as a corpus separatum (independent international regime). The resolution allocated to the Arab State approximately 42.88% of the total territory of mandate Palestine. This area encompassed the Western Galilee, the mountainous area of Nablus, the Hebron area and the Jordan Valley. It also included part of the coastal area, starting from Ashdod in the south and extending to the Egyptian border. In regard to the Jewish State, the resolution allocated approximately 56.74% of the total area of mandate Palestine. This area was to encompass the Eastern Galilee, Marj ibn Amr, and most of the coastal area, as well as the area of Be’r es-Sabe’, including the desert."

www.palestine-un.org...

If you do not recognize Palestine you can't recognize Israel. They were in fact created in the same U.N. Resolution. However who broke it first?

Irgun/Levi did when they would not disarm. Resulting in the first Arab/Israeli conflict, primarily because the U.N. did not uphold their resolution which Israel agreed too.

That flag meaning "Next Jerusalum" could just mean returning to the corpus separatum like it should be although I doubt it. However if they argued it on that point the U.N. who set up the Resolution can fund the flag.

As for the idea that it belongs to the Jewish people - that's a joke. There were Religions there prior to Judasim and if anyone takes up that arguement then many places should be given back to the people who once lived there. Spain, America, Australia, etc.

You can't make one rule for one and not the others when it is the same. (Both lost their lands through War and conquest.)

As for Dr. Mahdi Obeidi he now has a nice Government funded life and home somewhere, probably America (South) where his family liver in luxary at the expense of the American Government so the insurgency can't get him. He had many reasons to claim what he has about the regime.

Also, Harakat al-Muqawamah al-Islamiyyah (Arabic: حركة المقاومة الاسلامية, literally "Islamic Resistance Movement".
en.wikipedia.org...

If the U.N. resolutions were enforced, none of these groups would have ever "popped up" like they have. The largest piece of properganda they have is Israel and the unfair treatment - Iraq is only helping this as can be seen. (Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades is the militant wing.)

Also if you read the article by the C.I.A. I posted, they clearly think that Saddam was waiting for the Sanctions to be lifted. The stuff he had their was all fairly old and the fact he didn't use any WMD has to make you question if he had any.

It was clear Regime Change would happen so what did he have to loose?

AS for the war, it has only helped China and Russia, who clearly are allied now (Unlike the Stalin days) and America has played their hand in Iraq but more than that. They are now stuck in another Vietnam style war, costing them money while Russia and China boost their economy - especailly China.

And would you put it passed the KGB to feed fasle information and plant evidence?

Cuba has a lot to do with Iraq. If Iraq is guilty of training people from other Nations (Syria, etc) against American and that means they are terrorists the C.I.A and their assassination attempts on Castro is also terrorism. (Operation Mongoose) As well as their actions to bring about "several" revolutions in South America which resulted in fascist dictatorships which only have harmed the population.

The American Government can't take this "One rule for one and one for another" policy on the War on Terror. It only helps to create more terrorists as can be seen.

But also they can't lie to the people. It will cause American society to split once more like back in Vietnam and like it is now. This is as good as letting the terrorists win it divides you and divided you will fall.

As for the Russian's, they have been waiting to get a strong hold and become the Super-power once more. Iraq, the Middle East, etc is working in their favour. Iran for example - who is building the Nuclear Plant? The Russian's...

But also they are causing division in America. Giving one report than another, changing it and getting big publicity...divided you will fall.

So far the only people to benefit from Iraq were Oil, Russia/China and the terrorists. Not the American people.

Iraq could not attack American and getting WMD into America would be very hard on a large scale - harder if they have the 230billion (roughly) spent on Iraq to secure the borders, better back-ground checks, etc.

As for Saddam running his mouth - big deal. The Iranian's were wanting to get pay-back for a while, if they knew the state of his army (as we found out) they would have done it. He was using his bully boy routine to keep them at arms length before they found out the bully was a coward.

The China-America war would set both Nations back and who would be able to take their place? Russia.

The world is but a chess board and any day now the "King" will be in check.

Also on another note, hasn't recent genetic evidence shown the true Jews to be from Ethopia at not the ones presently in Egypt? (Beta Yisrael) So they have only been given their land on the religious bases and not genetic?

Other Sources:
www.yale.edu...

Originally posted by Odium
"Resolution 181 (II) (1947) partitioned Palestine into an Arab and a Jewish state, with Jerusalem as a corpus separatum (independent international regime). The resolution allocated to the Arab State approximately 42.88% of the total territory of mandate Palestine.
....................
If you do not recognize Palestine you can't recognize Israel. They were in fact created in the same U.N. Resolution. However who broke it first?

In order for an entity to be recognized as an independent state, it must meet certain criteria such as sovereignty, the Palestinian people have no sovereignty in the occupied territories. Palestine does not have a defined territory, as they are unwilling to have relations with the State of Israel, which is one requirement under international law for such an entity to be recognized as a State. The Palestinian government, and most of it's people, have rejected the partition between Palestine and Israel, rejecting Resolution 181 (II).

The unwillingess of the Palestinian government to recognize the State of Israel, and their unwillingness to accept the partition of both entities, ends the recognizion of such an entity (Palestine) as a State.

If the Palestinians, and the Palestinian government would have accepted the mandates under Resolution 181 (II) they would be recognized as a State by international law, but they are unwilling to do so. They do not want the State of Israel to be recognized. As a matter of fact the Palestinian government does not recognize at all Israel as a State. Israel is not shown as a state in any of their educational textbooks, and children have been taught that Israel, as a State, does not exist., and according to them the Israelis are illegally occupaying their land.

Originally posted by Odium
You can't make one rule for one and not the others when it is the same. (Both lost their lands through War and conquest.)

Since the Palestinians, and their government, have rejected Resolution 181 (II) they should not be recognized as a State, they are an entity with undefined territory, with a government that accepts violence (as in suicide attacks and other terrorist attacks) to achieve their goal of destroying the State of Israel and it's people.

Originally posted by Odium
As for Dr. Mahdi Obeidi he now has a nice Government funded life and home somewhere, probably America (South) where his family liver in luxary at the expense of the American Government so the insurgency can't get him. He had many reasons to claim what he has about the regime.

What about the rest of the people that have also given us information about Saddam's wmd, like former Russian military defectors? or family members of Saddam who were later executed? Are/were they all also lying just to make money?.......

That is very convinient for your argument. But you have to remember that up to 1999 the UN weapons inspectors took at face value the information that the regime of Saddam was giving them, until it was found that they were lying as the data and evidence proved.

Originally posted by Odium

If the U.N. resolutions were enforced, none of these groups would have ever "popped up" like they have. The largest piece of properganda they have is Israel and the unfair treatment - Iraq is only helping this as can be seen. (Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades is the militant wing.)

That's not so, these groups "popped up" because of the unwillingness of the Palestinian government, and most of it's people, to accept Resolution 181 (II) and the sovereingty of the State of Israel.

These groups want the destruction of Israel and it's people. Their government (Palestinian government) has rejected several times resolutions such as 181 (II) and any attemps that are made to proclaim the sovereinty of both, Israel and Palestine.

Originally posted by Odium
Also if you read the article by the C.I.A. I posted, they clearly think that Saddam was waiting for the Sanctions to be lifted. The stuff he had their was all fairly old and the fact he didn't use any WMD has to make you question if he had any.

No it does not make me question whether or not they had wmd or wmd programs. Their actions leading up to the war makes me question the claims of some people that Saddam did not have a wmd program and wmd.

Originally posted by Odium
It was clear Regime Change would happen so what did he have to loose?

The simpathy and acceptance from the world of Iraq as a regime, that's what he would have lost. How many people, even in these forums have claimed that Iraq was better under Saddam's regime? How would the world's perception of Saddam have changed if he would have used the wmd at the time of the war?

Even having wmd he knew he would be totally obliterated, i doubt he had enough to take on the US completly, but it was enough to cause alarm and concern, and more so if he would have sold more wmd to terrorists as i am almost sure he did or tried to.

Originally posted by Odium
AS for the war, it has only helped China and Russia, who clearly are allied now (Unlike the Stalin days) and America has played their hand in Iraq but more than that. They are now stuck in another Vietnam style war, costing them money while Russia and China boost their economy - especailly China.

We would have lost either way. If we didn't go to war in Iraq, Russia would have had a stronger hand in the middle east, as well as China. The Chinese government has even recognized that in this new century the rules of warfare have changed, and they must use any way to win against the US. *Refer to "Unrestrictive Warfare" written by Chinese senior military officers Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui.

Originally posted by Odium
And would you put it passed the KGB to feed fasle information and plant evidence?

They didn't have to plant it. They set up both the US and Saddam. They used Saddam as a pawn. First by providing wmd and other military technology which was banned from Iraq, and by backstabbing us while at the same time proiding evidence of Saddam's plans. (Which I am sure they had much to do with)

Originally posted by Odium
Cuba has a lot to do with Iraq. If Iraq is guilty of training people from other Nations (Syria, etc) against American and that means they are terrorists the C.I.A and their assassination attempts on Castro is also terrorism. (Operation Mongoose) As well as their actions to bring about "several" revolutions in South America which resulted in fascist dictatorships which only have harmed the population.

Do you know how many plans castro had, and still has, to destroy the US?....and how many spies are probably still in the US that are working for castro? The US might have had plans to oust castro, but that we know of we are not actively trying to kill him now or kill Cubans like Saddam was doing to the US.

Cuba is a totally different situation, and if you would have lived in that counry and had family still living there then perhaps you would realize what is happening and what castro's regime, together with Chavez now, are trying to accomplish.

Originally posted by Odium
But also they can't lie to the people. It will cause American society to split once more like back in Vietnam and like it is now. This is as good as letting the terrorists win it divides you and divided you will fall.

The US government, just like any other government keeps secrets, even from it's people. If all secrets were known our enemies would know about them and they would use them against us. In any sucessful government there will always be secrets and information that governments cannot give to the people. If you don't understand this then you do not understand the ways of the world.

Originally posted by Odium
As for the Russian's, they have been waiting to get a strong hold and become the Super-power once more. Iraq, the Middle East, etc is working in their favour. Iran for example - who is building the Nuclear Plant? The Russian's...

But also they are causing division in America. Giving one report than another, changing it and getting big publicity...divided you will fall.

Trust me, i know this. Communists are still working on dividing the US, and they are doing a good job. Liberals have adopted the dogma of the Communists. It is actually Communism in disguise.

Communism is not dead, and I doubt Russia has become a capitalist country. They just used Capitalism to stay afloat and grow strong once more, just like the Chinese government is doing.

Originally posted by Odium
So far the only people to benefit from Iraq were Oil, Russia/China and the terrorists. Not the American people.

That's not so. First, if it was all about oil only, it would have been cheaper for eveyone to just have bought the oil from Iraq. It serves no purpose for president Bush and his administration to set up the US just for oil. Yes, they are making a profit but how much money are we also spending in Iraq? a lot.

Iraq gives us a place to take on most terrorists, who have always existed in the middle east, somewhere else and not on US and European cities.

We are not being attacked more because of the war in Iraq.

Originally posted by Odium
............
The China-America war would set both Nations back and who would be able to take their place? Russia.

The world is but a chess board and any day now the "King" will be in check.

That has been the plan of both Russia and China for a long time. BTW, if you take a look at the given reasons of the Chinese/Russian governments for the joint military exercises that they are doing with Russia, they claim is because of:

The joint exercises will also help strengthen the capability of the two armed forces in jointly striking international terrorism, extremism and separatism.

Excerpted from.
english.people.com.cn...

In China's case the reasons is Taiwan. In Russia's case it has to do with the former soviet lands and it's people separating from mother Russia. how many times has Putin stated he longs for the old days when all mother Russia was united?...

Originally posted by Odium
Also on another note, hasn't recent genetic evidence shown the true Jews to be from Ethopia at not the ones presently in Egypt? (Beta Yisrael) So they have only been given their land on the religious bases and not genetic?

I don't know exactly what this has to do with anything.

---edited to correct comment---

[edit on 18-8-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by DjOsiris
IMNSHO (In-My-Not-So-Humble-Opinion) This woman is right on track here. If it weren't for the Israeli occupation of Palestine and our occupational forces in the middle east there wouldn't be near the level of terrorisim. They wouldn't even have reason to suicide bomb anyone if they were left alone. The Arabs and Persians have lived on that land for Tens of thousands of years.
........

That's not true. The Middle East was/is still a land of many ethnic groups. It was in the 7th century when Muslim converted to Islam that they set out to conquer the world by the sword and convert everyone into Islam. This is exactly what the terrorists are trying to do again. Just the claim by Osama Bin Laden and other terrorists that they want back those lands which they had conqured in the past, such as Andalucia (Spain) Kashmir, Jerusalem, etc, it should tell you that islamic terrorists are not going to stop until the whole world submits to Islam.

Originally posted by DjOsiris
We're (US/Britian) using religious and moral values to cover up for the fact that we are attempting to basically take over the world.

Who attacked who? and if it isn't Islamic extremists the ones that "want to take over the world" why are they attacking, and attempting to attacks such countries as Germany, and France? *Refer to the radical Islamists who tried to attack France in 2000 & 2003. You can find the same thing happening in Germany and other countries.

Originally posted by DjOsiris
But, what about the way in which he was tricked into believing what he was doing was right? I personally never fell for it.

You are in your right to believe that if you want, as Shennan's son was in his right to believe he was right. I could very well prove that you are being tricked into believing lies from the radical left.

We did not attack ourselves, despite what some keep claiming. We were/are attacked by islamic radicals because of their own views that the world should be dominated by Islam.

Originally posted by DjOsiris
How large must the stinking pile of evidence grow, supporting the fact that 9/11 was an inside job used as an excuse to trash our civil rights and start what George Bush called a "Crusade" because when it really boils down to it, this is all just about power, oil and of course $$$.

You said it, the evidence of those people claiming that it was an inside job stinks, (Sarcasm off) and it does not hold to scrutiny at all, as it has been demonstrated many times in these forums.


[edit on 18-8-2005 by Muaddib]

Ahh, you miss a key point on that part of history they.

They vocally opposed it but upheld the mandate and did not break it. The Israeli Government broke it and were never punished by the United Nations resulting in the Palestinian people opposing the Resolution as they see it as unfair. (It clearly states Jerusalem should be under international control and is not.) In fact it was the other Arabic Nations which opposed it, not the Palestinian Authority at the time.

They also never declared War, in fact other Nation’s did not the Palestinian’s and went over their land (in fact with out asking permission) the Palestinian people who expected the U.N. to offer Military protection to their state (as they disbanded all weapons during the British and French Mandates) were not protected and resulted in their land being taken from them. This is why Gaza, etc, has been seen as an illegal settlement.

If Mexico declared War on say Canada and they lost, does that give Canada the right to Mexican land that they trespassed on? No.

Muaddib, think about it for a moment. Many members of the KGB were involved in assassinations, etc. Would you put it passed them to lie and a nice life in America at the American Tax Payers expense?

As for Saddam running his mouth, of course he would. He was a bully, plain and simple. He liked having “power” and knew he would loose it once the American Government invaded. He was probably scared out of his wits and in fact would have likely destroyed everything that he knew of to make sure it didn’t exist or use it and cause maximum damage. The fact he did not commit suicide makes me believe (like the C.I.A. report he couldn’t afford it and destroyed the minor parts he had years ago.)

Also no matter what happened, once he was captured he knew he would be on trial. He was guilty of genocide and several International Courts had made it clearly they wished to place him on trial for this like they have done due to the Kosovo/Serbia problems and the people involved with that.

Also don’t you think invading Iraq and turning more members of the “Muslim World” against America is in China’s favour? In fact it is turning them against remembering what the Chinese and Russian’s did and making the American’s their enemy even more so - again helping these Nations.

As for Castro they tried several times to kill him. Sanctions were placed on his Nation on the basis that it was a Communist Regime. I would be pretty annoyed as well with the Government. Couple it with the fact they tried a half-dozen times to have him killed - well can you wonder why he hates the American Government?

But the Government easily can make many things public. They could have given all the evidence of Iraqi WMD to the public if they wanted and erased names, dates, times and places easily enough. It would be near impossible to pin-point who said what to who then, but the evidence would have been their for the public to decide. Instead we had to go on their word - which has been wrong before and seems to be wrong again.

No offence, but liberals are far from Communists (As in the U.S.S.R), saying such a thing removes the idea of any religious liberal, recreational drug use in “liberals”, etc. In fact many Nations such as the U.S.S.R. was more anti-drugs, liberal-sex policies, then the Republican Party. Remember the laws in Russia where if you knew someone was taking drugs you were as guilty as they were? That’s not overly “liberal”. The whole idea of “Left vs. Right” is actually only helping to further divide the Nation. Instead of it being on what the majority want it splits your Society.

As for oil you are missing my point. Yes, they could have still got it but not owned the pipe lines . Now they own them and make more money off of it. Greed drives a lot of people and a lot of people in the Bush Administration have contacts in the oil world. Some might have not done it for the “oil reason” but I bet a few “did”.

And I would argue that we are being attacked more because of the War in Iraq, Spain, London, etc were all examples of this and the London bombers were primarily “Home grown” and not foreign nationals a very new turning point for the British in the WoT.

----

The last point was to show that nobody knows who the “True” Jews actually are. They have been split up so many times and intermixed with people that you can trace them all over the World and not pin-point which group is the rightful “owners” of Israel. Meaning you are not giving it to a race but a Religion.

So why don’t many Pagan Faiths get their religious lands back?

Again it is a double standard.

Originally posted by Odium
Ahh, you miss a key point on that part of history they.

They vocally opposed it but upheld the mandate and did not break it. The Israeli Government broke it and were never punished by the United Nations resulting in the Palestinian people opposing the Resolution as they see it as unfair. (It clearly states Jerusalem should be under international control and is not.) In fact it was the other Arabic Nations which opposed it, not the Palestinian Authority at the time.

You better check your history because in September 1948, a government of Palestine was declared in Gaza by the Palestinians, and they proclaimed that Jerusalem was it's capital, not the other way around.

According to the United Nations' 1947 UN Partition Plan, proposing a partition of the British Mandate of Palestine, the areas of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank were to become part of a new Arab state. However, the Arab members of the U.N. stated that the plan was unjust and contrary to the U.N. Charter, and that they would not abide by it, presaging the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. In September 1948, partly as an Arab League move to limit the influence of Jordan (which claimed to be the Palestinians' legitimate ruler) over the Palestinian issue, a Palestinian government was declared in Gaza. The former mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, was appointed as president. On October 1, an independent Palestinian state in all of Palestine was declared, with Jerusalem as its capital.

Excerpted from.
www.answers.com...

For more information.
www.fathom.com...

Originally posted by Odium
If Mexico declared War on say Canada and they lost, does that give Canada the right to Mexican land that they trespassed on? No.

How exactly does this support your argument? Who was it that won the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.? I am pretty sure it was Israel, not Palestine.

By right of conquest Israel is a recognized state and won it's territory, and by international law they also have a right to exist.

Originally posted by Odium
Muaddib, think about it for a moment. Many members of the KGB were involved in assassinations, etc. Would you put it passed them to lie and a nice life in America at the American Tax Payers expense?

Not all Russian people, even those that were in the military, are bad people. That's why so many of them defected, although i am sure some of them were working for the Russian government as spies, but those who have given us information over the years have proved that they are not working for the Russian government.

Let's see if what many of these former Russian defectors have told us has come true.

More recently, Anatoliy Golitsyn, a Soviet defector of high status, has suggested that the Soviet Union is capable of disinformation on such a massive scale that even the Borkenau system is no longer viable.2 In a book first published in 1984, and of necessity written before then, Golitsyn argues that the leadership of the whole Communist bloc came to an agreement in 1958 in which it established a long range program, a master plan, which it would realize through a large scale deception of the West, a monumental scam.

Golitsyn maintains that the goals of the master plan were to provide a more profound political stabilization of individual communist regimes by developing wider mass support, the rectification of economic weakness of the bloc by increased international trade and the acquisition of credits and high technology from the West, the creation of a substructure for an eventual world federation of communist states, political isolation of the US from its allies, developing influence among socialists in Western Europe and Japan, the dissolution of NATO, and an alignment between the Soviet Union and a neutral, preferably socialist, Western Europe; concerted action with nationalist leaders in the Third World to eliminate Western influence as a preliminary to absorbing them in a communist federation, shifting the balance of power in favor of the Communist world, and the ideological disarmament of the West to create favorable conditions for convergence of East and West on communist terms.

..................
The final phase of the master plan, according to Golitsyn, is a disinformation and deception campaign of such magnitude that it would be "beyond the imagination of Marx, or the practical reach of Lenin, and unthinkable to Stalin. Among such previously unthinkable stratagems are the introduction of false liberalization in Eastern Europe and, probably, the Soviet Union, and the exhibition of spurious independence on the part of the regimes in Romania, Czechoslovakia, and Poland."

Golitsyn predicted the "breakup" of the communist bloc in Eastern Europe as a technique to be used by the Soviet government to entice Europe to move more towards socialism and to align itself eventually with the USSR against the United States.8 The Third World would then join communist Russia and socialist Western Europe against the US and its allies. Then there would be a joint drive by the Soviet bloc and a socialist Europe to push the US out of Europe and into nuclear disarmament. A powerful world federation of communist states would emerge and the US would be induced to "converge" on communist terms.

Excerpted from.
www.umd.umich.edu...

Originally posted by Odium
As for Saddam running his mouth, of course he would. He was a bully, plain and simple. He liked having “power” and knew he would loose it once the American Government invaded. He was probably scared out of his wits and in fact would have likely destroyed everything that he knew of to make sure it didn’t exist or use it and cause maximum damage. The fact he did not commit suicide makes me believe (like the C.I.A. report he couldn’t afford it and destroyed the minor parts he had years ago.)

You are making assumptions which the facts do not back up. If he wasn't breaking the UN resolutions and wasn't going after wmd programs and he didn't have people in his regime working on getting wmd, why would security cameras which were put in place by weapon inspectors dissapear from factories they were keeping an eye on?

Why lie to the west for us to then find in the late 1990s that they were hiding information about wmd programs?

Why would his regime impede access to UN weapon inspectors to many areas?

The anwser is simple, Saddam was hiding something, and it wasn't milk and honey.

Originally posted by Odium
Also no matter what happened, once he was captured he knew he would be on trial. He was guilty of genocide and several International Courts had made it clearly they wished to place him on trial for this like they have done due to the Kosovo/Serbia problems and the people involved with that.

You are making assumptions once more. Can you read his mind? I sure know i can't, but I know that his actions were suspicious if there was nothing for him to hide.

Originally posted by Odium
Also don’t you think invading Iraq and turning more members of the “Muslim World” against America is in China’s favour? In fact it is turning them against remembering what the Chinese and Russian’s did and making the American’s their enemy even more so - again helping these Nations.

Of course it is, but doing nothing would have given even more power to China and Russia over the Middle East. Saddam was used by both China and Russia against the US, they made certain that either reaction would have a positive effect for them. They washed their hands off by giving us information on what Saddam was planning to do, with their help, yet at the same time proclaiming to the world there was no reason for us to go to war.

Originally posted by Odium
As for Castro they tried several times to kill him. Sanctions were placed on his Nation on the basis that it was a Communist Regime. I would be pretty annoyed as well with the Government. Couple it with the fact they tried a half-dozen times to have him killed - well can you wonder why he hates the American Government?

Because he is a Communist, an assassin and a sob who destroyed his country and my people. Do you even know how many times castro has been behind assessination attemps of US presidents? Do you even know how he makes money as we are discussing this? He funds terrorists who are against Capitalism.

Anyways, this is subject for another discussion and has nothing to do with this one. Sheenan did not say one word about Cuba.

Originally posted by Odium
But the Government easily can make many things public. They could have given all the evidence of Iraqi WMD to the public if they wanted and erased names, dates, times and places easily enough. It would be near impossible to pin-point who said what to who then, but the evidence would have been their for the public to decide. Instead we had to go on their word - which has been wrong before and seems to be wrong again.

That is very naive of anyone to say this. Ask the government of Spain, France, or Germany to give you all their secrets and how they get all their information....ask China to give you all their secrets and how they get that information.... They would not do this because then their sources would be revealed to the public and to their enemies.

The US government is wise and should not give all their secrets to the public, despite what some people keep claiming.

Originally posted by Odium
No offence, but liberals are far from Communists (As in the U.S.S.R), saying such a thing removes the idea of any religious liberal, recreational drug use in “liberals”, etc. In fact many Nations such as the U.S.S.R. was more anti-drugs, liberal-sex policies, then the Republican Party. Remember the laws in Russia where if you knew someone was taking drugs you were as guilty as they were? That’s not overly “liberal”. The whole idea of “Left vs. Right” is actually only helping to further divide the Nation. Instead of it being on what the majority want it splits your Society.

That was in the old days. Now Communists have changed a few of their tactics to get more people to accept their views. Let's see if the Communist dogma is a far cry from Liberalism.

THE BATTLE FOR THE FUTUREWILL BE FOUGHT FROM HERE FORWARD!YOU THINK YOU KNOW....BUT YOU HAVE NO IDEA....JUST WHAT BUSH HAS IN STORE FOR....YOU....US....THE WORLD....OUR FUTURE
...................
Straight up – Bush and his people aren’t just ordinary Republi-cans. And they’re not ordinary Christians either. They are ChristianFascists – dangerous fanatics who aim to make the U.S. a religiousdictatorship and to force this upon the world. If they get their way –and they are very far along the road to getting it – society will beplunged into a high-tech Dark Ages.Those who compare Bush to Hitler are right! But, don’t be waitingfor people wearing little mustaches and marching the Nazi goose-step to come to your town. This brand of fascism is comingdifferently, and it's coming straight from the White House.
........
But let us put it to YOU: if you’ve been agonizing about the future,if you nodded your head as you read this statement, then. . . what are YOU gonna do? Are YOU going to be one of thousands who come together now and help create the force that can lead millions against this madness, when millions are ready to be led? Will you help create and bring onto the stage a revolutionary people? Are you ready to check out this Party and this leader? Will you bring your ideas, your creativity, your questions and yes, your disagreements to us, and help figure out how we can rise to the occasion? Are YOU ready to make a real difference – to not only spread the word of resistance and revolution, but make that a real alternative in society?
Revolutionary Communist Party, USA

If you read that latest Communist article and you tell me that it is totally different from what Liberals keep claiming, then you are blind as to what is happening in the world. Pretty much every point the Liberals have come straight from the "new Communist dogma."

A lot of people this dayandage, mostly those who have never experienced Communism, (yes, communism has existed/exists despite what some claim )are taking the bait once more, following the Communist dogma with a new twist and a few changes. In the end the goal is the same, Liberalism is the new name of Communism, and you have been lured, punked, along with many Americans and other people around the world into accepting the Communist dogma once again.

Originally posted by Odium
As for oil you are missing my point. Yes, they could have still got it but not owned the pipe lines . Now they own them and make more money off of it. Greed drives a lot of people and a lot of people in the Bush Administration have contacts in the oil world. Some might have not done it for the “oil reason” but I bet a few “did”.

Present evidence that the Iraqi oil pipelines are now property of the US....because that I know of it is property of the government of Iraq.

Originally posted by Odium
And I would argue that we are being attacked more because of the War in Iraq, Spain, London, etc were all examples of this and the London bombers were primarily “Home grown” and not foreign nationals a very new turning point for the British in the WoT.

The US was attacked in 9/11 before the war in Iraq.... the WTC was first attacked by radical islamists in 1993, US citizens and US soldiers have been attacked by Islamic extremists even before that year. The same has been happening in many countries in the world.

The London bombers were all radical Islamists.... We are fighting against radical Islamists all over the world, and if you think the war in Iraq had anything to do with the attacks in Spain, here are some threads which show the contrary.

After Islamic extremists/terrorists promised they would not attack Spain and other European countries if they got their troops out of Iraq, this is what they have been doing.

But these successes underscore the threat to Spain and all of Europe as law enforcement scrambles to adapt to a new form of terrorism that appears to be growing here. "The threat from al-Qaeda is the same in Europe as it was on March 11," says Franco Frattini, commissioner for security for the 25-nation European Union.

"We thought we were out of the threat, that we had no threat coming from these groups," he says. "Now, we realize this is a police problem. ... It's more than a police problem, it's a social problem; it's a clash of civilizations."

Excerpted from.
Threat remains a year after terror attacks in Madrid

There is also part of a report from Spain's leading terrorist expert Fernando Reinares.

Professor Reinares argued that the assertion of a direct causal link between Iraq and 3/11 is “a great simplification.” Spain may be the first European country where Islamic extremists were successful in conducting a mass-casualty attack, but it is not the first where Al Qaeda planned a massacre (e.g., Al Qaeda’s mega-terrorism plan in France in 2000). Nor has its plans been confined to countries that participated in the Iraq war.The actual decision to target Spain’s trains was made in late 2003, but the 3/11 group formed in late 2001 after the Spanish authorities had dismantled the previous Al Qaeda network in the aftermath of 9/11. The Egyptian ringleader of the 3/11 network was arrested in Italy and confessed that the train bombings had taken two-and-a-half years to organize. Spain’s participation in the Iraq war created a propitious political environment for carrying out bombings that had been long in the works. In short, the war was the occasion not the cause of the bombing.

Excerpted from.
wwics.si.edu...

Heck France and Germany, among some other countries, opposed the war and they have been attacked by Islamic extremists, and Islamic extremists continue trying to make mayor attacks there.

Friday, 20 December, 2002, 12:46 GMT
France says arrested men 'planned attack'


The French interior ministry has said four suspected Islamic militants arrested on Monday were "without doubt" planning at least one attack.
The ministry said all four had declared their support for a holy war and that two had admitted undergoing training with Chechen rebels in Georgia's Pankisi Gorge.

The arrests were made in a northern Paris suburb on Monday.

Police seized chemicals and suspected detonator components from one of the apartments raided, as well as a suit to protect against nuclear, chemical and biological attack.

Excerpted from.
news.bbc.co.uk...

11:04 2001-10-13

Chemical attack planned for France

The Italian anti-terrorist police foiled a plan to test a toxic chemical in France this week.

The Italian anti-terrorist police eavesdropping telephone conversations foiled a plot by Moslem extremists to launch a chemical attack in France. The suspects have been caught and were imprisoned on Wednesday. The terrorists, situated in Milan, were planning to test a ?flask of liquid¦ in France, according to the intercepted calls.

A key excerpt from the conversation:

?Is this better than the other product?¦
?Yes it is better because it-s more efficient. It suffocates people as soon as you open it."

The product was sealed in cans of tomatoes and from the description, could be Sarin or Mustard Gas.

Excerpted from.
english.pravda.ru...

Strasbourg cathedral bombing plot
The Strasbourg cathedral bombing plot was a plan to blow up a cathedral in Strasbourg, France by members of Al-Qaida.

In December 2000, German police uncovered the plot in Frankfurt and raided an apartment building, where they found arms and explosives. In London, England, United Kingdom, an Islamist preacher named Abu Qatada was arrested for the attack, but was released on a lack of evidence.

Italian police said that they wiretapped a telephone call related to the failure of the plot. This is the transcript.

Sami Ben Khemais: "There is danger. Members of the bin Laden cell in Frankfurt have been captured. I am warning you that they got half the group in Germany."
Tarek Maaroufi: "No!"
Khemais: "Yes. Did you understand me? They arrested our brothers in Germany and they found the arms warehouse in Germany, Frankfurt. You need a cover."
Maaroufi: "What do you mean? God be with you."
Khemais: "Did you understand me? You need a cover. You know how."

Excerpted from.
www.answers.com...;jsessionid=pshpscddp0bb?

Originally posted by Odium
The last point was to show that nobody knows who the “True” Jews actually are. They have been split up so many times and intermixed with people that you can trace them all over the World and not pin-point which group is the rightful “owners” of Israel. Meaning you are not giving it to a race but a Religion.

It doesn't matter who the real jewish people are. Under international law and under the laws of conquest Israel is a sovereignt and legal country.

Originally posted by Odium

So why don’t many Pagan Faiths get their religious lands back?

Again it is a double standard.

If they would have won wars in any region of the world they would have gotten those lands as rightfully theirs, and whatever else they could have conquered, but we all know they lost. Most Muslim lands nowaday were taken by the Muslim forces throughout the 7th-12 century ADby force, they kept those lands they were able to hold and are living there now.

Islamic extremists want those lands they lost back, and after that they want the world dominated by an Islamic state.

We can't change the past and how people came to populate lands or own them. We can only work on the future and try to improve it.



[edit on 18-8-2005 by Muaddib]

Are there any people supporting Mrs. Sheehan who do not sniff glue or take hits from cool whip cans?

How about any anti-war people who can make an arguement without becoming disengaged with reality and withdrawing to the fridge for some munchies and maybe another fews tugs from the ole peace pipe?

How about can any anti-war protester also not be a raving anti-bush gas bag, or is it required? Are there any people in the movement who can seperate the two or is the whole anti-war movement in essence just another anti-W campaign? Would the average anti-war advocate go into convulsions if they had to explain why the Iraq war is Bad without making the whole arguement a hodge podge of insults and 527 group's talking points?

What the hell, why not use a mother whose son was killed to help bring in some fresh revenue and media play for MoveOn.org and the like. What's wrong with that? She's already saying mostly what you want her to, so why not use her like a dish towel and then toss her off to dry out once you're done. Yeah the anti-war crowd is sooo concerned with the morality of sending troops over there, but hey, a grieving mom is fair game for any political movement right?

So far I gather that in anti-war/bush circles only genocidal maniacs could possibly support overthrowing a................... yup, genocidal maniac.

No, Bad America, here is a nice man quietly minding his own business building rape rooms and mass graves, using poison gas on his own country men and attacking his nieghbors. What business did we have opposing such a noble creature? After all, how where those UN sanctions against Saddam going, did they stop him from building any number of his newer pallaces or filling the countryside with weapons and small arms caches?

Oh yeah, and there's a Jew or two to blame somewhere, somehow, and Isreal should be spanked like a puppy peeing on the rug. Bad, bad Isreali's, thinking they can have their own nation and kick any Arab army trying to invade it back to the stone ages. After all, the UN said they could have the land, they didn't say anything about surviving any longer than the next week. Silly Israeli's, why didn't they like Saddam, it's not he was sending $25,000 checks to Hamas suicide bombers. Ooops, he was. No matter, bad Israel.

And by god, if you don't like your elected leader then why should have to pay taxes? How silly, expecting people to pay their taxes even if they didn't vote for the guy in the white house.

I do believe the justification for war was not that Saddam had WMD's, it was that he couldn't be trusted not to make/use/distribute them once the sanctions were lifted. Having them was secondary to the fact that he had used them before and could make more in the future and distribute them freely if he so pleased. Everyone knew he was "cheating" with the sanctions. The fear was that he could become aligned with terrorists and that with his resources, together they could become an even bigger danger.

If that's not what you heard when you listened to the pre-war arguements then I'm sorry, I don't know what to tell you, other than try using a Q-Tip before sitting down to watch the news. Either that or put away your copy of "The Protocalls of The Elders of Zion" and the George Galloway's greatest rants CD. Oh yeah, and stop using grieving mom's as tools for the dirty work that elected democrats can't do. That's just bad taste.

Can we get back on topic.

Sheehan has been reported to be leaving Texas to go and be at her mothers bedside. Apparently the stress of this all has even affected her. She is reported to have had a heart attack.

'Peace Mom' Leaves Camp, Her Mother Ill

First her husband divorces her and now her mother has a heart attack. I hope she is happy now.

[edit on 8/18/2005 by shots]