god only gave us conditioned free will?

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
If GOD wanted to have the same (identical) relationship with all of us, then why are we not all identically the same?

Exactly!

GOD is that which will take a step towards you, if you take a step towards "GOD".

If you seek truth, then truth will find you, wherever you are.

God cannot be defined within a word, if GOD is the word.

I perceive the 'word' as the spoken manifestation of 'mind'--essentially the material manifestation of Spirit.

I see very few differences between the teachings of those who claimed to be delivering a message. I know they are all right, or they would not be permitted to exist, for how can anything that isn't true be true?

All those delivering a message were obviously not serving self--no messenger delivers his own statements. That which the individual speaks independently is self-oriented and cannot be trusted as true--since the easiest person to fool or to lie to is one's self.
But to be appointed to deliver the message of another means there is trust involved (that the message is proper and that the messenger will not distort the message), service (the sheer fact of the delivery means it is not about the messenger--he serves both speaker and listener).
Those who 'found religions' are not messengers (maybe they begin as such, but creating a religion disqualifies one from the position--and all religions founded in the names of true messengers are begun after the messenger is no longer amongst us--and is thus the message is profaned and twisted into man's creation--yet these are the 'seeds'!)

To help people stay on their own path will eventually lead them to themselves, which is what they are looking for to begin with. Do not try to make them deviate from that path. Instead, help them:
Ask a logical question
Get a logical answer
Ask the next logical question
Get a logical answer
Ask the next logical question
..... and so on and so forth, until ....
The last logical question

Beautiful! Simple enough--yet avoided by most. Superstition seems to work so much better at the present time, but I know the tides are turning, even as I write this.

Me? I think your definition is perfect. However, I think there is a place for a merciful GOD to fullfill prophecy without negating the true spirit of the concepts of heaven and hell.

Yes--the prophecy is for the purpose of 'proving' the truth--that is truly truth and that man cannot find it on his own, in his current state of awareness--without the help of a Creator who truly loves and cares for the best interests of all He created.

When humanity achieves something (not sure what) then judgment day. Those who want to be like GOD get sent back to the beginning of humanity's start, and those who wish to be with GOD get to proceed into the future, and serve as guardians for other worlds, like those who have served us. Some ascend, some get what they want. Free Will in the buff.

Yes-- I perceive something like that. Mortality is basically the existence within the awareness of a temporal memory--IOW, no memories--no life. Death is erasing the 'hard drive' and to 'pass from death to life' or to 'not taste death' is to be allowed to maintain one's accumulation of consciousness and memory (these are our 'works'--according to what the bible says about works going into the lake of fire) If they are negative they are detrimental to the individual and the whole, and as such must be erased in order for new ones to be made, and the state of positive overcoming negative is the state of salvation--Good overcoming Evil, Christ defeating Satan, and us defeating our flesh through the help of Spirit.

perhaps it is possible for GOD to create a stone too heavy for GOD to lift.

With God 'all things are possible'--but that's the idea of Divine wisdom--knowing that just because one 'can' doesn't mean one 'should.' God knows it is foolish to create a stone too heavy for Him to lift. God's wisdom is the order and justice that keeps creation in equilibrium.

Take the word "GOD" out of the equasion, since it means so many things to so many people. The word "GOD", simply has too many connotations to be accepted by all, Good Or Damned.

My favorite is [G]ood [O]rderly [D]irection

lol it's getting hard to concentrate on all these different aspects but I'll try,saint4god I'll reply to your points first.

Originally posted by saint4God
Ah, well then we're talking about two kinds of proof then. Not all proof is tangible. I'm sure something has proven itself to be true to you yet you have no remnant of evidence, yes?

Ok that's a good point,I have sufficient proof for myself through my own feelings and experiences in life but nothing tangible enough in itself to show others.

Sometimes indirectly (through others, situations, experiences or actions), sometimes directly (not a voice that you hear through the ear, it more or less is a 'voice' that goes right into the brain). My best description is when you remember someone telling you something, then they're not currently telling you, but you can hear their voice and they're talking to you.

I think by what your saying there,we may have reasonably similar ideas but different ways of expressing it and looking at it which is understandable given cultural differences.The voice you speak of appears to be the same as what I described earlier about conscience or the little voice inside.In the Rastafari tradition we see everything in nature as the manifestation of God,God dwells within man and nature.Connecting with the spiritual within is connecting with God,that little voice that comes to us when we take time to contemplate and when you get those sudden feelings in certain situations,this I fully accept as God.

Fortunately for me, Roman ideology is independent of Christianity when you have a Bible in your hands.

I don't want to cause offence but the whole concept of Christ in the new testament is surely of Roman origin.A fair bit of the NT contains the views of Paul and the gospels clearly have a Roman influence,all branches of christianity have their roots in Rome.


queenannie I'll get back to you later.

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
Ok that's a good point,I have sufficient proof for myself through my own feelings and experiences in life but nothing tangible enough in itself to show others.

Woot! I hope you get the proof you need soon. I pray for it too if that's alright. Seek it out and let me know if I can be of any help. I think you'll find that the proof is even more substantial than feelings and also quite an experience.

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
I think by what your saying there,we may have reasonably similar ideas but different ways of expressing it and looking at it which is understandable given cultural differences.The voice you speak of appears to be the same as what I described earlier about conscience or the little voice inside.In the Rastafari tradition we see everything in nature as the manifestation of God,God dwells within man and nature.Connecting with the spiritual within is connecting with God,that little voice that comes to us when we take time to contemplate and when you get those sudden feelings in certain situations,this I fully accept as God.

Ras (meaning king) like you use in your username, Tafari (head creator) which refers to Haile Selassie, yes? I know very little beyond that he was a field marshal who had done great things for the oppressed. Perhaps I have a lot to learn from you if you're willing and please correct me if I'm off the mark.

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
I don't want to cause offence

No worries, I don't get offended very easily...especially around here

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
but the whole concept of Christ in the new testament is surely of Roman origin.

Romans would create a guy they killed and have him usurp Caesar and remove the divinity of Augustus? Sounds like a lousy plan to create an empire in all honesty.

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
A fair bit of the NT contains the views of Paul and the gospels clearly have a Roman influence,all branches of christianity have their roots in Rome.

Aha! Paul, yes. Likewise persecuted Christians as a Roman, now telling Romans they have it all wrong. Again, doesn't sound like a grand Roman plan to me. Historically speaking, Rome had a way of acquisitioning religions then adapting it, not writing their own. It was true with trade and architecture as well. Look at a greek temple, then a roman one. A greek God, then the equivalent Roman one. Very, very similar yes? The Romans took what looked good and worked, then applied it. Not to say they're not innovative folk organizationally, militarily, and politically, but the rest you can find the roots from all the surrounding territories. My question is, if this is the case, why isn't The New Testament in Latin?

Originally posted by saint4God
This I'll disagree on. He has told me things.

I know what you mean. Yet--it's the common claims, largely false, of the tryrants of the world--who say God told them to do something our insides scream out is definitely not Godly!--and our own human understanding of 'telling'--meaning spoken words--that causes this statement to receive flak.

I can say that before I took a step towards Him though, He did not tell me anything. Rightly so I think, I didn't care enough about Him to accept anything He had to say anyway.

Then perhaps it is not that He wasn’t ‘speaking’ but that you were not yet ready to listen?

I think we are all equally invited to His altar—and we know that His altar is within us—not just some of us—we were all made in His image, after His likeness. We all have that ‘soft still voice’—the one that Elijah heard on the mountain—but if we listen all the time to other men or even to our self, we will not hear God.

What’s the difference between self within and God within? Simple—we err—but God never lies or makes mistakes. What fits that description inside of a man? Some call it gut instinct, some call it their ‘inner voice’—most do their best to squelch and ignore it— but that old saying ‘your first instinct is always right’ is testament that God is within each of us, just waiting for us to listen in the silence to His call.

Most of conventional Christianity condemns trusting God from within—an obvious case of mistakenly assuming that which covers is the same as what is covered--and essentially the very essence of 'sin' and disobedience by blatant disregard for simple words spoken by Christ--yet the obvious lack of unity in denomination keeps many unsure of who to trust in order to be trusting God—and heaven help the one who dares to ‘go it alone.’ And 'Heaven' is the only One that can and will help--ironically enough!

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
Connecting with the spiritual within is connecting with God,that little voice that comes to us when we take time to contemplate and when you get those sudden feelings in certain situations,this I fully accept as God.

And that is true 'revelation'--God revealed within each of us, perfectly suited to our own unique way of processing thought.

Fortunately for me, Roman ideology is independent of Christianity when you have a Bible in your hands.

I don't want to cause offence but the whole concept of Christ in the new testament is surely of Roman origin.A fair bit of the NT contains the views of Paul and the gospels clearly have a Roman influence,all branches of christianity have their roots in Rome.

I totally relate to what you are both are saying. I go a little farther than Saint4God, though--I'd have to say that my relationship with the bible is totally independent of christianity. I understand christianity--I went to a christian church all my years of childhood--until 18. As soon as I moved out of my parent's house, I quit going. Not because I rebelled--not because I felt I needed another 'religion' or 'church home'--but because there was no rhyme or reason to what the church 'taught' and no enthusiasm in the leaders or the congregation. Many of the people there were, and are, still very dear to my heart--and not once did I have any sort of 'bad experience' to make me bitter. It is usually assumed, because I reject institutional christianity that I have been 'burned' or made bitter by 'disillusionment'--they cannot understand that what I reject is 'illusion' and ideas that never come to a full end in a logical manner. I asked questions that no one would answer--until I realized that I was making others uncomfortable--then I quit asking. I wasn't asking for direction--only for comparison of mutual understandings--what they said the bible said was not the way I understood it--or the way I felt was right inside of me.

All branches of christianity are rooted in Rome--but the bible is not a branch or a root--it is water. It can be directed in its flow or it can be allowed to run its natural course. Water causes thistles and thorns to grow just the same as it does fig trees and grapevines. What is planted is what grows.

And the root of the 'true vine' was planted long before there were 'christians', 'jews', or any such thing.

Christianity does not understand Paul--in the least--for he was the first true mystic and as such is a mystery to the 'natural' mind--for truly he did have the mind of Christ.

And (let me get my shield--in case I offend someone having good aim as well as a rotten tomato) the bible is NOT about Christianity--and it's not about the Jews. It's about Jesus Christ--from beginning to end, who is the only bridge between spiritual and material.

Okay--so we have been given the bridge and a roadmap, the toll is paid in full-- there is no reason we should be asking for directions from others who haven't found their way there on their own--and who are reading the map upside down.

I'm not judging anyone or criticizing the state of being lost and without understanding--it's a prerequisite for all of us.

None of us knew when we started, but we will all know at the end.

Originally posted by saint4God
Ras (meaning king) like you use in your username, Tafari (head creator) which refers to Haile Selassie, yes? I know very little beyond that he was a field marshal who had done great things for the oppressed. Perhaps I have a lot to learn from you if you're willing and please correct me if I'm off the mark.

Your pretty close,Ras is an Ethiopian title and prince would be a better translation,king is Negus.Tafari was his majesty's forename,born Tafari Makkonen the "head creator" thing is often mentioned but while I know very little Ahmeric I'm dubious as to the validity of that claim.
Haile Selassie(power of the trinity) was the title adopted after his coronation as Emperor of Ethiopia as you can maybe guess by the meaning of the title his majesty was a christian and head of the Ethiopian orthodox church,Ethiopia has a christian tradition stretching back to the 4th century.According to Ethiopian history the kings are of Solomonic descent this added to the other titles used in his coronation which I'm sure you will have heard somewhere before "King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Conquering Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Elect of God" and several other prophesy and literature in circulation at the time lead many to falsely assume he was the returned Christ but that is to overlook that this title was used far into history by Ethiopian royalty.
Rastafari is not a religious organisation,no set ideology or anything like.To me Haile Selassie is nothing to do with Christ,I see him as the perfect example of how to live and try to live by his teachings,people may see Christ in this way but while the sum of what is attributed to Jesus in the bible is very little and obviously questionable whether it's an acccurate account,Haile Selassie is an unrefutable historical reality whose speeches and actions were recorded as they happend.

Rome had a way of acquisitioning religions then adapting it, not writing their own.

Won't get any argument from me over this but it's still where the tradition as we know it today originates.Paul took existing beliefs and made them acceptable to Rome it's this adapted concept that has passed down and not the views of the Jerusalem church.

My question is, if this is the case, why isn't The New Testament in Latin?

My mistake,Greco-Roman ideology would be more accurate.

queenannie,I can't keep up,your raising a lot of interesting and worthwhile ideas I will definitely be back tommorrow at some point.

Originally posted by saint4God
My question is, if this is the case, why isn't The New Testament in Latin?

Well--it is. A direct defense manuever in answer to the reformation--and one of the root sources for the idea of 'rapture'--which I've learned on this forum through the posts of one of the Jakes, not Jungle Jake, but the other.

They made the bible into latin when it became apparent they could no longer prevent people from private access and reading/study. This was done long after Latin retired after giving birth to many other languages.

It's not too long ago that they finally quit doing Mass in Latin--and the only time I've ever truly felt animosity as far as 'vibes' and been in a situation I could only perceive as sinister, was when I stepped across the threshold in the largest Catholic church in my town (now torn down and replaced with a milder modern version) for a mass which was read in Latin.

I did not feel God there at all--and I feel Him everywhere. That place was not good--the new one is not so bad except for the larger than life dying Jesus displayed behind the podium or altar, whatever. How can a dying man portray a living God? Why not a picture of an empty tomb???

Originally posted by queenannie38
With God 'all things are possible'--but that's the idea of Divine wisdom--knowing that just because one 'can' doesn't mean one 'should.' God knows it is foolish to create a stone too heavy for Him to lift. God's wisdom is the order and justice that keeps creation in equilibrium.

Ok God may be too wise in reality to do such a thing but it's a hypothetical question which is unanswerable,whichever answer yes or no means God is not omnipotent.Atheists often see this as means to ridicule but in reality it proves nothing it's just a trick question.My only point in this that the infinite possibilities of God are beyond our limited perceptions,Rene Descartes shows that a piece of wax can be beyond the limits of our imagination and senses so what chance do we have with God.

not because I felt I needed another 'religion' or 'church home'--but because there was no rhyme or reason to what the church 'taught' and no enthusiasm in the leaders or the congregation. Many of the people there were, and are, still very dear to my heart--and not once did I have any sort of 'bad experience' to make me bitter. It is usually assumed, because I reject institutional christianity that I have been 'burned' or made bitter by 'disillusionment'--they cannot understand that what I reject is 'illusion' and ideas that never come to a full end in a logical manner. I asked questions that no one would answer--until I realized that I was making others uncomfortable--then I quit asking. I wasn't asking for direction--only for comparison of mutual understandings--what they said the bible said was not the way I understood it--or the way I felt was right inside of me.

This is very similar to what I in younger years percieved in christianity,that much of what was taught didn't make much sense was based on illusion and tried to instill fear.My mother is a christian and took us to church but there was no connection for me.As you say about asking questions,I've never been someone to take things at face value I want to question and gain my own understanding but the church expects too much blind faith.
The way I realised I was a Rasta was as a youth talking to Rastafari in the neighbourhood and the things they talked about were things which I felt and thought about myself,I felt that connection I didn't get in church,what they talked about made sense to me from my perspective as a descendent of slaves and living in the UK within an apparently christian society where we faced a lot of overt rasicm and discrimination.

They made the bible into latin when it became apparent they could no longer prevent people from private access and reading/study. This was done long after Latin retired after giving birth to many other languages.

But is that not a getting back to earlier times in that the catholic church didn't want people to read the bible,knowledge of God came only throught the middleman of the priest.No coincedence their greatest hold was when people were mostly illiterate.

except for the larger than life dying Jesus displayed behind the podium or altar, whatever. How can a dying man portray a living God? Why not a picture of an empty tomb???

This is another thing that defies reason it's seems to me like worship of death and suffering,add to this eating his
flesh and drinking his blood,what kind of thinking is this?

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

When humanity achieves something (not sure what) then judgment day. Those who want to be like GOD get sent back to the beginning of humanity's start, and those who wish to be with GOD get to proceed into the future, and serve as guardians for other worlds, like those who have served us. Some ascend, some get what they want. Free Will in the buff.

Yes-- I perceive something like that. Mortality is basically the existence within the awareness of a temporal memory--IOW, no memories--no life. Death is erasing the 'hard drive' and to 'pass from death to life' or to 'not taste death' is to be allowed to maintain one's accumulation of consciousness and memory (these are our 'works'--according to what the bible says about works going into the lake of fire) If they are negative they are detrimental to the individual and the whole, and as such must be erased in order for new ones to be made, and the state of positive overcoming negative is the state of salvation--Good overcoming Evil, Christ defeating Satan, and us defeating our flesh through the help of Spirit.

Again I'm not trying to knock beliefs but deal with the concepts and this is getting back to free will.I can't really get my head around the concept of a judgement day and that we better act in prescribed manner or God will be unhappy with us.
I try to live my life the best I can,not just have love and respect for others but manifest it in my actions,words without works is pointless.I do this because I know it's the right thing to do not because God is watching and judging me,I do it through love not fear.Judgement day and all of these things are unknowable.I like to deal with the here and now with things beyond doubt,the only thing I know without the slightest doubt is we have this life the rest is conjecture.Christianity will say stay in your place accept things as they are,there's a better life to come.I can't stay in my place and keep quiet while I see suffering all around me,I want to help now in this,the only life I know for sure there is.Judgement ,heaven,hell the story of the crusifiction etc are all focusing the mind away from this life and in a way are saying its unimportant,I just cant go along with that I'd rather celebrate life for what it is the greatest gift and live it to the fullest.

[edit on 31/8/2005 by Ras Dedan]

Originally posted by queenannie38
I know what you mean. Yet--it's the common claims, largely false, of the tryrants of the world--who say God told them to do something our insides scream out is definitely not Godly!--and our own human understanding of 'telling'--meaning spoken words--that causes this statement to receive flak.

Ouch. I'm not a tyrant and have no desire for power. Yet, I've been called to an authoritative position that I don't want and am afraid of because it means handling and relaying the Word on a daily basis, face-to-face, and in very hard situations. I don't want to mess it up. I get a small taste of doing that here, but upcoming is a full-time job.

Queenannie, I invite you to U2U me and I will repeat the things I've been directly told. Match it up with your Book and tell me who it came from. It ain't from me. I am not that well read yet and had to dig to find it for validation. I trust you'd see them in the right light and not tear me down from prejudice.

Originally posted by queenannie38
Then perhaps it is not that He wasn’t ‘speaking’ but that you were not yet ready to listen?

Yes. I can agree with that. My own head was too loud at that time.

Originally posted by queenannie38
I think we are all equally invited to His altar—and we know that His altar is within us—not just some of us—we were all made in His image, after His likeness. We all have that ‘soft still voice’—the one that Elijah heard on the mountain—but if we listen all the time to other men or even to our self, we will not hear God.

I do like that part with Elijah *nods* and can agree with this point.

Originally posted by queenannie38
What’s the difference between self within and God within? Simple—we err—but God never lies or makes mistakes. What fits that description inside of a man? Some call it gut instinct, some call it their ‘inner voice’—most do their best to squelch and ignore it— but that old saying ‘your first instinct is always right’ is testament that God is within each of us, just waiting for us to listen in the silence to His call.

Perhaps, but it's important to make the distinction between instinct and sinful nature. Our first reaction can be sinful nature. For example, immediately lying when we detect we might get in trouble or wanting someone else's spouse because of an undisciplined physical drive. It's hard to see the difference when you don't believe in God between instinct and sinful nature, because both seem to be 'natural'.

Originally posted by queenannie38
Most of conventional Christianity condemns trusting God from within—an obvious case of mistakenly assuming that which covers is the same as what is covered--and essentially the very essence of 'sin' and disobedience by blatant disregard for simple words spoken by Christ--yet the obvious lack of unity in denomination keeps many unsure of who to trust in order to be trusting God—and heaven help the one who dares to ‘go it alone.’ And 'Heaven' is the only One that can and will help--ironically enough!

The splintering of the church by denomination was a structural manifestation necessary for growth. It's a long story and hard to explain, but I can say if I go to a Methodist church this week, a Baptist the next, and a Presbyterian one the following, they're all going to tell me the same thing - "Talk to God (pray), read the Book, live both daily". There really isn't this massive "war" that a lot of non-churchgoers like to paint.

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
Your pretty close,Ras is an Ethiopian title and prince would be a better translation,king is Negus.Tafari was his majesty's forename,born Tafari Makkonen the "head creator" thing is often mentioned but while I know very little Ahmeric I'm dubious as to the validity of that claim.
Haile Selassie(power of the trinity) was the title adopted after his coronation as Emperor of Ethiopia as you can maybe guess by the meaning of the title his majesty was a christian and head of the Ethiopian orthodox church,Ethiopia has a christian tradition stretching back to the 4th century.According to Ethiopian history the kings are of Solomonic descent this added to the other titles used in his coronation which I'm sure you will have heard somewhere before "King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Conquering Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Elect of God" and several other prophesy and literature in circulation at the time lead many to falsely assume he was the returned Christ but that is to overlook that this title was used far into history by Ethiopian royalty.

I'm glad you've cleared that up for me. I did do some reading on the web, which did state Christ returned, but was unable to find enough sources to validate whether this was the actual belief or propaganda. Even the dictionary seems a bit off on definition, describing very little.

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
Rastafari is not a religious organisation,no set ideology or anything like.To me Haile Selassie is nothing to do with Christ,I see him as the perfect example of how to live and try to live by his teachings,people may see Christ in this way but while the sum of what is attributed to Jesus in the bible is very little and obviously questionable whether it's an acccurate account,Haile Selassie is an unrefutable historical reality whose speeches and actions were recorded as they happend.

What Haile Selassie a human or more? Is doubt in Jesus a typical belief in Rastafarianism? Would you say Rastafarianism is a philosophy since it is not a religion? Sorry so many questions, but I had a ton a few months ago and no-one was around to help.

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
Won't get any argument from me over this but it's still where the tradition as we know it today originates.Paul took existing beliefs and made them acceptable to Rome it's this adapted concept that has passed down and not the views of the Jerusalem church.

Paul spent a good amount of time in a Roman prison. I don't think what he said was aligned with what Romans like to hear. That and Paul didn't write Matthew through Acts. He didn't kick up the work until, ironically enough, the book of Romans.

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
My mistake,Greco-Roman ideology would be more accurate.

Post-Acts (except Revelation), I would agree there probably is some Greco-Roman influence, especially since most of his letters were to Greek churches. Not previous to that though per above. That's like saying Moses had some Egyptian influence. Well, he did spend a good deal of time with them so culturally I'm sure that's true. When God intervened though, it was clear there was a definate change.

The problem with free will is that God is supposed to be all knowing and therefore knows everything that we will do in our lifes. This shows that our lifes should be predetermined and negate all notion of free will. How can we choose something if God already knows what we choose?

G

Originally posted by queenannie38
Well--it is.

Old Testament was Hebrew, New Testament is Greek. I've been both challenged and encouraged to learn Greek first so that I can say I've read original texts. Personnally I think this is a rediculous idea since the New International Version was translated by over 200 scholars from original text. I doubt my 201st interpretation will be any different, but gotta make the peoples happy so they'll listen to me I guess...

Originally posted by queenannie38
A direct defense manuever in answer to the reformation--and one of the root sources for the idea of 'rapture'--which I've learned on this forum through the posts of one of the Jakes, not Jungle Jake, but the other.

They made the bible into latin when it became apparent they could no longer prevent people from private access and reading/study. This was done long after Latin retired after giving birth to many other languages.

This did happen, but my Bible was not translated from Latin. It was translated from original text, which is to say, not Latin.

Originally posted by queenannie38
It's not too long ago that they finally quit doing Mass in Latin--and the only time I've ever truly felt animosity as far as 'vibes' and been in a situation I could only perceive as sinister, was when I stepped across the threshold in the largest Catholic church in my town (now torn down and replaced with a milder modern version) for a mass which was read in Latin.

That would be intimidating for me. When people speak to me about spiritual matters, I'd like to know what they're saying.

Originally posted by queenannie38
I did not feel God there at all--and I feel Him everywhere. That place was not good--the new one is not so bad except for the larger than life dying Jesus displayed behind the podium or altar, whatever. How can a dying man portray a living God?

This is a good question. Probably better suited for someone who is Catholic.

Originally posted by queenannie38
Why not a picture of an empty tomb???

Here you go:



"He is risen!"
"He is risen indeed"

I like this picture, very Carravaggio-like, or at least Baroque. I like Baroque art. If it's not Baroque, somebody fix it!

I can speak for Protestant brothers and sisters though, who wear an empty cross showing he is risen. Sometimes draped with the burial cloth, flowers growing to show it's empty, or a dove for peace. I prefer a plain cross, too many symbols raise misinterpretation sometimes.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

Originally posted by saint4God
I'm glad you've cleared that up for me. I did do some reading on the web, which did state Christ returned, but was unable to find enough sources to validate whether this was the actual belief or propaganda. Even the dictionary seems a bit off on definition, describing very little.

Some people within Rastafari do believe that Haile Selassie was Christ,the Twelve Tribes organisation are the main promoters of this currently.The founders of the movement were all previously christians or having been brought up in a christian country,it's understandable then that when they began to express their consciousness that a lot of christian ideas were present.Leonard Howell was the first man to openly teach the divinity of Selassie and I suppose given the society in Jamaica at that time,he needed to explain things in terms of christianity so people could come to grips with the ideas.The webs not much use as source of info on Rastafari,it's pretty much misunderstood by those outside the movement,partly because of the use of language and also as knowledge increases so does thinking,much of it is tied to the aims of the pan-Africanist movements and this is where our practical focus is,the spiritual side is only a part of the whole.At the most basic level all it means is the followers of Ras Tafari,there were people who in the 1920's when he was still a Ras who recognised his wisdom and integrity,long before there was any spiritual ideas connected to him.They became known as Ras Tafarians and the name came down from them,that's why the name is not Selassians or some such thing which would make more sense if it was only post coronation and the percieved fullfilment of prophesy that his extraordinary nature was revealed.

What Haile Selassie a human or more? Is doubt in Jesus a typical belief in Rastafarianism? Would you say Rastafarianism is a philosophy since it is not a religion? Sorry so many questions, but I had a ton a few months ago and no-one was around to help.

To me he's a normal human like the rest of us but the God inside is far more apparent in him through his words and actions,a role model and teacher that is what he is to me but there are plenty of Rastafari who dont agree with this viewpoint.I'm not sure what you mean by doubt in Jesus.The term we use is Rastafari not Rastafarianism we don't really like the "ism" tag,I know its only a word and I hate to be picky but most of us are big believers in the power of words,hence the changing of the sound of words for example appreciate to appreci-love and the formation of new words and terms.Philosophy would be a better description of what it is although I don't know if there really is any tag that truly fits,it just is what it is,Rastafari and it's ok I don't mind answering your questions.

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
The term we use is Rastafari not Rastafarianism we don't really like the "ism" tag,I know its only a word and I hate to be picky but most of us are big believers in the power of words,hence the changing of the sound of words for example appreciate to appreci-love and the formation of new words and terms.

Oops! My bad entirely. Took it from:

Main Entry: Ras·ta·far·i·an
Pronunciation: "ras-t&-'far-E-&n, "räs-t&-'fär-
Function: noun
Etymology: Ras Tafari, precoronation name of Haile Selassie
: an adherent of Rastafarianism
- Rastafarian adjective
www.m-w.com...

I hold a member of the belief in higher esteem when it comes to proper terminology than Merriam-Webster.

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
Philosophy would be a better description of what it is although I don't know if there really is any tag that truly fits,it just is what it is,Rastafari and it's ok I don't mind answering your questions.

My knowledge is limited to the few here who stated they were Rastafari, college, and music. I really like this group (trip-hop/jazz fusion), but the lyrics made me go "hm?" and began asking questions:

"The Outernationalist

Jah Rastafari
One heart
One love
One moon
One earth
One light
The almighty
Jah Rastafari
Unfathomable
Master builder of creastion
Jah rastafari
Who stands to rule and reign worldwide
Ras mean king
Tafari mean head creator
Supreme supremacy
Ruler among the mighty
He touched and lightning scorched
Rebuked the wind
And chastised thunder
The almighty
Him alone the only international field marshal
Helaie-I Selasie"
www.alwaysontherun.net...

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
I'm not sure what you mean by doubt in Jesus.

I probably didn't phrase the question right. Do Rastafari typically believe in Jesus being the actual son of God, Christ and Messiah, who died and was resurrected to give mankind the ability to be redeemed for their sins?

Also, can you provide any background on your avatar selection?

[edit on 31-8-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
Again I'm not trying to knock beliefs but deal with the concepts and this is getting back to free will.I can't really get my head around the concept of a judgement day and that we better act in prescribed manner or God will be unhappy with us.

I think that judgment has been going on ever since the day were first given access (individually) to the Spirit of Truth--IOW--do we block out that truth--and condemn others who speak it as heretics or even worse? Or do we embrace it and allow our eyes to be opened as well as our hearts. We 'judge' ourselves--we discern what is truth and what is not, or we reject truth and love lies. The Holy Spirit is the instrument of judgment--not the Judge. The Judge is God within us--because there is no hiding anything in there.

Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time? Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?
Luke 12:56-57 KJV

We are to judge and discern for ourselves--and there seems to be no reason why we can't.

I try to live my life the best I can,not just have love and respect for others but manifest it in my actions,words without works is pointless.I do this because I know it's the right thing to do not because God is watching and judging me,I do it through love not fear.Judgement day and all of these things are unknowable.I like to deal with the here and now with things beyond doubt,the only thing I know without the slightest doubt is we have this life the rest is conjecture.

That's right--that's what the bible says and that's what at least two hearts know (mine and yours) and surely there are many more. Most people are christians because they fear for their hide but those who truly love God are those that wish to please Him. He knows hearts--those who only desire to escape punishment--and end up trampling many innocents on the way out--surely these are not the examples He has prepared for the benefit of the rest. These are the 'fearful and the nonbelievers.'

The bible isn't about do good or go to hell--its about love your neighbor and give yourself--heaven is paradise, in your heart--share it with the world and the world becomes paradise again.




[edit on 8/31/2005 by queenannie38]

Originally posted by saint4God
Ouch. I'm not a tyrant and have no desire for power.

Gosh--surely you don't think I meant you? More like 'its tyrants like that, that give meek (gentle) truth-seeking people a bad name.' Of which I am one (of the latter).

Yet, I've been called to an authoritative position that I don't want and am afraid of because it means handling and relaying the Word on a daily basis, face-to-face, and in very hard situations. I don't want to mess it up. I get a small taste of doing that here, but upcoming is a full-time job.

Don't worry--if God called your name, He will uphold you and will not let your 'words fall to the ground.'

And Samuel grew, and the LORD was with him, and did let none of his words fall to the ground. 1 Samuel 3:19 KJV

Queenannie, I invite you to U2U me

I did! Thanks!

It ain't from me.

I know exactly where you are coming from. Truly.

I am not that well read yet and had to dig to find it for validation.

Amazing to have those 'transmissions' of unbelievable and fantastic understandings---that are 'way out there' yet make so much sense and fit so tightly that it blows your mind--you just know---then you find written proof in your wordly wanderings--things you've read countless times before--but until you were given understanding, couldn't see what they are truly saying on the strongest chord!

Perhaps, but it's important to make the distinction between instinct and sinful nature.

Indeed--and as you say--that first reaction is always of a 'sinful' nature--rather it is an emotional reaction--and emotions are something that we wouldn't have if we weren't fleshly beings. Emotions are not feelings--they are reactions of previous feelings stored in our memory--and they cause physiologic reactions which override our mind.

I heard a zen buddhist saying once, that has stuck with me and helped me a lot: Learn to respond, not react.

Jesus said it like this:
Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

Three things happen inside:

1. instant instinct, brilliant and very brief
   
2. emotional reaction, intense and insistent (think: 'the thundering hordes')
   
3. rational thinking in a mind reorganized following invading emotions
   

#1 is God, #2 is you, #3 can be a cooperative effort between God and the established and mature servant (if that servant starts out with #1 and allows God to help overcoming #2)

For those who do not feel God is real--just do #1--it works on multiple choice tests and it works in life. (and God will come and surprise you!)

For example, immediately lying when we detect we might get in trouble or wanting someone else's spouse because of an undisciplined physical drive.

Exactly thoughts driven by emotional reactions--these are what gets us into trouble of all kinds--since we don't think about the consequences--emotions don't understand 'cause and effect.'

It's hard to see the difference when you don't believe in God between instinct and sinful nature, because both seem to be 'natural'.

That's true--at least it sounds true. Truth is, I can't say that I have thought about it that way. I think many who say or believe they believe in God don't know the difference between that gut and emotions, either. Everyone says 'don't put faith in yourself.' Well--in the case of lack of faith in God--it is far better to trust one's self than to trust others.

The practical reason is that you know you have your best interest at heart--the same is not true for others, no matter how it seems, most people are self-oriented to the point of obliviousness---all the while thinking they are doing good for everyone they meet, yet they are serving themselves. Those are 'takers' who think they are 'givers.'

And the deeper reason is that it is obeying God--even if one doesn't think God is real--they are still listening either to themselves or to God--rather than others. So they are already doing one thing God instructs us to do. Psalms 118:8. If we listen to ourselves and err--God will gently correct us. If we listen to others and stumble around and fall into a hole--God will drag us out but it's not going to be pleasant, and we'll feel so bad when we realize what we've done.

Faith in one's self is not the same as the false pride of independence--false pride, Nebuchadnezzar style (Daniel chapter 4) is something separate from the choice to listen to others or to self (or God)--we all start out with the idea we can stand on our own. The difficulty arises if, when we fall and can't get up, if we look for a human hand or if we allow God to pick us up.
If you get knocked down, instead of falling--you'd better let God pick you up, because He's the one that knocked you down--and it's for a definite purpose and your benefit. Besides that, if you try to get up on your own, He'll gently push on your chest till you sit back down on your bottom.

Now that's love. Doesn't sound like it, but it is. You'll know after the fact, no doubt. That is the 'lake of fire' aka 'the furnace of affliction.' When He picks you up, you are resurrected.


The splintering of the church by denomination was a structural manifestation necessary for growth. It's a long story and hard to explain, but I can say if I go to a Methodist church this week, a Baptist the next, and a Presbyterian one the following, they're all going to tell me the same thing - "Talk to God (pray), read the Book, live both daily". There really isn't this massive "war" that a lot of non-churchgoers like to paint.

[edit on 8/31/2005 by queenannie38]

No problem with the ism thing it's just one of those things,I had a look at that dictionary,made me laugh anyway,just funny to see the same old cliches,smoking herb and can't cut your hair,how shallow they must think we are.

"Main Entry: Ras·ta·far·i·an·ism
Pronunciation: -E-&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
: a religious cult among black Jamaicans that teaches the eventual redemption of blacks and their return to Africa, employs the ritualistic use of marijuana, forbids the cutting of hair, and venerates Haile Selassie as a god"

I do realise that many people perhaps can't see past these things but neither smoking or growing dreadlocks is of any real importance within Rastafari,none of the founders grew their hair and it didn't become widespread until relatively recent times and wasn't really brought up until the 50's as an outward expression of the rejection of society,the name dreadlocks came from the idea they caused dread and shock in those who saw them.The earliest Rastas that wore them were guards and Leonard Howells camp Pinnacle,it was adopted because it was a hairstyle used among warriors in many African cultures.If you see pictures of the Mau Mau from Kenya that fought colonial rule many of them have this hairstyle.

Originally posted by saint4God
My knowledge is limited to the few here who stated they were Rastafari, college, and music. I really like this group (trip-hop/jazz fusion), but the lyrics made me go "hm?" and began asking questions:

"The Outernationalist

Jah Rastafari
One heart
One love
One moon
etc.

Doesn't seem to be saying much just a bunch of random statements.A lot of people seem be drawn towards Rasta because they maybe agree with peace and love bit,they like the reggae and smoking herb and assume it's some kind of hippy business,just wear some red,gold and green buy Bob Marley cd's and shout Jah Rastafari and One Love.I suppose it does no harm and if they take something away from it that helps them live a little better and show love then it's for the good but it causes a lot of misperceptions.

I probably didn't phrase the question right. Do Rastafari typically believe in Jesus being the actual son of God, Christ and Messiah, who died and was resurrected to give mankind the ability to be redeemed for their sins?

Also, can you provide any background on your avatar selection?

mmm,thats a tough one,I think it could be pretty mixed but going by my own interactions with others I would say most would probably not but their are no doubt some that do.Rastafari is a very personal thing it's about our individual relationships with God and kinda hard for me to speak for others so that's just a guess.The avatar is Marcus Garvey the founder of the U.N.I.A. (universal negro improvement association) who taught black people to uplift themselves through education and self improvement and to look to Africa for their future, I would think all the early Rastas were U.N.I.A members although he wasn't to keen on them and reputedly made them sit at the back at meetings and almost all of the people who would go on to free African nations from colonial rule were also members.He was a great man,teacher and inspiration who worked tirelessly for others.
www.pbs.org...

Originally posted by queenannie38
Don't worry--if God called your name, He will uphold you and will not let your 'words fall to the ground.'

Whoa. I need to go for a walk now, thank you.

And Samuel grew, and the LORD was with him, and did let none of his words fall to the ground. 1 Samuel 3:19 KJV

And she brings the proof too!

Originally posted by queenannie38
Amazing to have those 'transmissions' of unbelievable and fantastic understandings---that are 'way out there' yet make so much sense and fit so tightly that it blows your mind--you just know---then you find written proof in your wordly wanderings--things you've read countless times before--but until you were given understanding, couldn't see what they are truly saying on the strongest chord!

I can tell you understand absolutely. You've said it much better than I could've.

Originally posted by queenannie38
Three things happen inside:

1. instant instinct, brilliant and very brief
   
2. emotional reaction, intense and insistent (think: 'the thundering hordes')
   
3. rational thinking in a mind reorganized following invading emotions
   

#1 is God, #2 is you, #3 can be a cooperative effort between God and the established and mature servant (if that servant starts out with #1 and allows God to help overcoming #2)

For those who do not feel God is real--just do #1--it works on multiple choice tests and it works in life. (and God will come and surprise you!)

Originally posted by queenannie38
Exactly thoughts driven by emotional reactions--these are what gets us into trouble of all kinds--since we don't think about the consequences--emotions don't understand 'cause and effect.'

Originally posted by queenannie38
Truth is, I can't say that I have thought about it that way. I think many who say or believe they believe in God don't know the difference between that gut and emotions, either.

The practical reason is that you know you have your best interest at heart--the same is not true for others, no matter how it seems, most people are self-oriented to the point of obliviousness---all the while thinking they are doing good for everyone they meet, yet they are serving themselves. Those are 'takers' who think they are 'givers.'

And the deeper reason is that it is obeying God--even if one doesn't think God is real--they are still listening either to themselves or to God--rather than others. So they are already doing one thing God instructs us to do. Psalms 118:8. If we listen to ourselves and err--God will gently correct us. If we listen to others and stumble around and fall into a hole--God will drag us out but it's not going to be pleasant, and we'll feel so bad when we realize what we've done.

Understanding and proof illustrated. Do you do this kind of work in your job? If so, can you get me one? If not, have you thought about doing so?

Originally posted by queenannie38
Faith in one's self is not the same as the false pride of independence--false pride, Nebuchadnezzar style (Daniel chapter 4) is something separate from the choice to listen to others or to self (or God)--we all start out with the idea we can stand on our own. The difficulty arises if, when we fall and can't get up, if we look for a human hand or if we allow God to pick us up.
If you get knocked down, instead of falling--you'd better let God pick you up, because He's the one that knocked you down--and it's for a definite purpose and your benefit. Besides that, if you try to get up on your own, He'll gently push on your chest till you sit back down on your bottom.

Now that's love. Doesn't sound like it, but it is. You'll know after the fact, no doubt.

Every once in a while, in a room full of crowded people, I hear a voice that knows and understands a great deal. It is then that my urge to speak disappears and I pull up a chair to listen.

Oh, and one more thing...

You have voted queenannie38 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

[edit on 31-8-2005 by saint4God]