god only gave us conditioned free will?

A wast to a good mind, God's is here and all we need is faith.

Originally posted by deaf fences hit
it's conditioned in a way that there appear to be SET choices that we HAVE to make,

I see, thanks. Then by that definition I agree it is conditioned.

Originally posted by deaf fences hit
and that violates the term free will.

Whoa hey, not really. The choice is ours to make. We have the freedom to choose it.

Originally posted by deaf fences hit
freedom entitles the ability to not only choose from anothers proposed condition, but to also ignore it and/or create choices of ones own will, if need be.

We do that all the time. Proof we have free will, I think.

When you said you had a walk with God, could you be more specific?

Also, could you give a little background to how you've come to believe?

This does tie into free will, because I think foundationally it's important when discussing how we come to believe whether or not we have it. queenannie seems to think we do not have free will as well, but I'm wondering if we're saying the same thing but getting tangled up in the definition...

Originally posted by saint4God
When you said you had a walk with God, could you be more specific?

I don't know if it is a sin to ask GOD for insight into the intentions of the highest observer or not. At many levels I am grateful for the knowledge and wisdom I've recieved.

I'm nothing. I'm no one. I am as insignificant and as prideless as one can be at times. I have been serving, (sometimes out of percieved necessity), but have been serving my entire life, in one fashion or another.

Life is a walk with GOD. Free will is whether we acknowledge we are with GOD, or choose not to acknowledge we are with GOD. To think anything we accomplish we have done soley of our own devices is a mute arguement. We are tools of the divine and ultimate observer. Free will is what encompasses our state of mind.

When I say I took a walk with GOD, it is not like I looked to my right or left and saw the almighty. The almighty was everywhere, and I could/can see people for who they are, minus the walls, minus the masks they wear. I could feel the pain within them and address them in a manner that they would invite me in ..... into their train of thought, their state of mind.

I don't think the truth can be explained. I think the truth is that the truth can only be experienced.

To more fully comprehend the concept of GOD, a person must unconditionally, and without personal reservations, accept there is a GOD.

I am not a soul that subscribes to any 1 faith, for the message was always greater than the messenger. What that means to me is: If any "religion" exists, then it must be unseperate from the source of all creation. If any "religion" exists, it must exist out of necessity, and from the source of it all.

Ever heard the phrase: "Still on the fence, I see", or "Still haven't picked which side of the fence you are on?"

These phrases are creating a mindset within us that there are 2 sides, or more. These phrases instill the idea that there are seperations within the original truth.

How can truth be seperated from truth?

How can you hold truth in your left hand and truth in your right hand, but when you put your hands together and form a bowl shape, the contents of both your hands are no longer truth?

In other words:
If you can take truth and add it to truth, and the sum of both is not the truth, then there is something wrong with you, the observer who isn't seeing how truth can not be added to truth to make an untruth.

What I meant by saying I've taken a walk with GOD is:
I've taken a walk with GOD.

I've had premature infants die in my arms. I was 16.
I've succesfully given CPR to premature infants. I was 16.
I've given elderly women baths. I was 15.
I've laid hands on, kissed, & hugged people with scabbies, herpies, shingles, AIDS, TB, and many other "communicable" diseases without fear, because they needed human contact. They needed to know they were not alone. They needed just 1 person to not fear touching them, when most were. Imagine going through life with no one wanting to touch you? People can die from not being needed, or wanted.

Who wants to die knowing no one needs them?
Who wants to die knowing no one wants them?
Who wants to die knowing no one will see them off, and no one will greet them?

I was 10 when I saw death for the first time.
I was 15 when I spent 4 days awake at the bedside of a 103 year old woman's bed as she was passing.

Do you believe you can look into the eyes of someone as they are passing and see the reflection in their eyes as they see heaven and GOD?

GOD is that which encompasses all acquired sensory input from all entities conscious throughout all space and time.

GOD is.

I was 29 when I saw war.
I've seen it
I've lived it, 7 tours.
I'm going again to Balad Air Base in Iraq, in January.
I'm not goin alone.

GOD is attainable, here.
Heaven is attainable, here.

Brush the devil off your shoulder. He is HATE. He is the voice of HATE.
Brush the angel off your shoulder. He is FEAR. He is the voice of FEAR.

How can you HATE anything? The only justification one has to HATE is that they first FEAR that that which they HATE has the potential for taking something/someone they love away from them.

My point? Fearing God is not Loving God, because you are fearing that God may take that which you love, from you.

Hating God is also not loving God. Fearing God is in effect the opposite of loving God.

It is not impossible for us to hear GOD. The point is learning how to listen. learning how to listen means learning how to shutup. Learning how to shutup, means learning how to silence the mind.

How many people do you know are trying to impress their will upon the world? How many people are stuck in the frame of mind that they are the victim of this world?

Instead of putting forth your will on creation, try becoming the will of creation. Try becoming an extension of the will of those people in your life.

Ask not what consciousness and creation can do for you. Ask what you can do for consciousness and creation.

Having experienced that which I've experienced, miracles are real. GOD exists.

I know secrets, that are only secrets to those who deny themselves of themselves.

How does one deny themselves their self?

By living life with a devil on one shoulder and a angel on the other, and thinking those are the only two worth listening to.

If there is an angel on your shoulder, seems to me at least that there is a possibility it has fallen. Or, why would it be on your shoulder?

Don't listen to the devil.
Don't listen to the angel.
Listen to yourself, your true voice (without fear, and without hate).

And, then take a walk with GOD.

Are you willing to forfiet your life for 1 second with the truth?
Are you willing to forfiet existance with 1 second with the truth?
Are you willing to forfeit your life for the souls of all?
Are you willing to forfeit your life for the soul of the 1 you hated the most?
Are you willing to forfeit your life for the redemption of the one that shattered heaven?

Are you willing?

We are One, We are Many, Many are ONE.

Your greatest fear? Being alone.
Will you be alone?
That is what free will is all about, conquering the fear of isolation.

isolation is just an illusion anyways.

Perfection is what is witnessed when the observer chooses to experience the truth. Confusion and questions simply fall away.

I've taken a walk with GOD. And, only GOD can convince me otherwise.

Also, could you give a little background to how you've come to believe?

Life. Children. War. Death. Love. Truth.

A STATE OF MIND: Truthing loving truthing. Truth loves truth.

This does tie into free will, because I think foundationally it's important when discussing how we come to believe whether or not we have it. queenannie seems to think we do not have free will as well, but I'm wondering if we're saying the same thing but getting tangled up in the definition...

Free Will is the choice to fight the world to not be alone, or not fight the world, and find you are not alone. fighting, and you'll never stop fighting. Submit to truth, your truth, and you'll never be alone.

Free will is either accepting your truth, or hiding from yourself in the lies you live. Free Will is the awakening. Free Will is knowing no fences. Free Will is choosing to accept all is 1, and all is from the same source. Free Will is knowing omnipotence, or denying everything.

Free Will is choosing Truth, or not.

Originally posted by they see ALL
think of it like this:

the teacher (God) tells you to do an optional asignment (in our case, the asignment will represent acting good and following the 10 commandments and all that)...

the teacher says, if you do it, you will get points (by going to heaven, in our case)...

if we don't do it, we do not get points (in our case, by going to hell)...

so, we are forced to do it...

in other words, God tells us to act good (and this is optional) and if we act good, we go to heaven, and if we don't, we go to hell...

even though its optional, we must do it to go to heaven...

I've been reading through this thread and all of the statements similar to the one above all come down to one thing,presumptions that you know the will of God.God has told no one anything,these teachings come from M-A-N,the bible was written by man and is a mixture of history and myths.We have free will to do as we please its our own conscience we have to answer to and nobody can provide the slightest fragment of evidence for heaven/hell all it comes down to is faith which is belief in the absence of fact and this belief is handed down from a tradition that teaches that there is no way to God but through them.These concepts are a control measure,stay in your place,meekly wait and murmer not you'll get your reward when you die.This is pie in the sky,empty promises,I'm a great believer in the statement that "a promise is a comfort to a fool".
Please answer me this,if we need to accept this jesus and live by these given bounderies of "good" or burn in hell for eternity what happens to people who lived before him and those right up to the present day who haven't heard of him,or who haven't been taught these bounderies of behaviour do they get a free pass or is it straight to hell?


[edit on 29/8/2005 by Ras Dedan]

Esoteric Teacher~
That was beautiful and eloquent--and expresses even more, perhaps, than you intended to say. At least it does to me. May the LORD guard and keep you, in the future as He's obviously done in the past!

Saint4God~this thread has had me thinking a lot, and especially your post. I think you are right, in the sense that some of the discrepancies arise from semantics (as is always the case!). Also--I think it is also a case of a difference in perspectives caused by standing in either one of two places, but never both at the same time. I'm not talking about duality--as Esoteric Teacher speaks of with:

Ever heard the phrase: "Still on the fence, I see", or "Still haven't picked which side of the fence you are on?"

I identify with that statement from experience--after many years of feeling that is not right to sit on the fence--that every single thing is a polar choice--which is absolutely the mainstream attitude and urgency of human society--I at last realized that the fence in the middle is the 'happy medium', the 'everything in moderation,' and above all--the bridge which carries us above the troubled waters below.
But the two different POV's that I am referring to are of the nature of 'self will' and 'God's will.' No matter what side of the 'will' divide one is on, that side seems to be (and actually is) the side of free will. For whether we really have free will or just the opportunity to choose--the bottom line is that whichever side we are presently on is somehow the side of our own choosing, and as such, represents our idea of 'free will.'
I used to be on the 'self-will' side--and now that I am not, I see that side as being certain doom--only because I'm already on the other side of that certain doom in my existence; a doom which arose from my own free-willed decision. It's a long story--but suffice it to say that I say this with all conviction of experience:

It is, by far, the most difficult act of the human will to surrender that will. Nothing requires more internal unity than to 'throw in the towel.' Even with a bad, bad, mistake--that mistake must be faced head-on as unfixable before one can give up on the mess created.

That is a micro-echo of the garden of eden narrative--which is the narrative of the entire human population. And the moral of the story is the same: Proverbs 14:12.

Ras Dedan~

You asked:

Please answer me this,if we need to accept this jesus and live by these given bounderies of "good" or burn in hell for eternity what happens to people who lived before him and those right up to the present day who haven't heard of him,or who haven't been taught these bounderies of behaviour do they get a free pass or is it straight to hell?

Excellent point--one that never is addressed by those who preach hell, since there is no logical answer for it. How can a just and truly Divine God be so unfair?
(For, no matter what christians usually say--there is no way around this to arrive at 'justice.')
Answer: He can't. So, therefore, that so-called 'doctrine' is totally man-made--made by men who obviously don't look back or forward or even side to side. All around us are others just like us--no comfort comes from separating one's self out by virtue of a fairy tale made of smoke--comfort comes from love, and love comes from unity--and if we deprive ourselves of comforting others, then we certainly deprive ourselves of being comforted, too.

Now, don't take that as me saying I don't believe in God--the God of Israel that created us all, that sent His Anointed to free the captives in the Last Year of Jubilee--I not only believe, I know* God is real--like Esoteric Teacher, I have experienced walking with God, and it is not something possible to describe to another who has not yet done so--all that can be done is to demonstrate personal integrity as support for telling whomever asks that yes, it is possible and it is the destiny of all souls. The rest is up to God, and you--but it's more about consciousness than it is boundaries and dogma--for the only hard and fast rule is LOVE--the love of God, each other, and of Truth.

"Liberate the minds of men and ultimately you will liberate the bodies of men."

Awesome sig!
That is truth--pure and simple. But there's even another truth behind it: that there is only One who can liberate the mind of man--and that is The Source, the Creator of that mind.

So forget what they say, those who preach hell. They are not free--they are slaves to the idea of hell, self-condemned prisoners refusing to leave prison after the door's already been torn off the hinges. For it is the truth which shall make you free, not religion--Christ is the liberator, not 'christianity.'

*(this 'knowing' is a personal knowing, but nonetheless just as valid for me as is knowing that the curtain beside me is a lovely apple green color. Both of those 'knowings' I cannot prove to you--even if I sent a pic of the curtain, how can you really know that it is the same one that now hangs in the window to my left?)

[edit on 8/29/2005 by queenannie38]

Originally posted by saint4God


This does tie into free will, because I think foundationally it's important when discussing how we come to believe whether or not we have it. queenannie seems to think we do not have free will as well, but I'm wondering if we're saying the same thing but getting tangled up in the definition...

If GOD is not omnipotent, then GOD is not GOD.

If GOD is not within me, then GOD is not omnipotent.

If GOD is omnipotent, then GOD is within me.



I thank you Queenannie for the kind words, but again ...... I do not claim to be the only author of those words.

Perhaps Free Will means different things to different people.

Do I have free will? Yes.
Do I have free will? No.

How can I be seperate from GOD if GOD is omnipotent?
How can I utilize my "gift" of free will to be seperate from that which is omnipotent?

Free Will can only pertain to the mind of the individual. Perhaps the subconscious mind is noncompatible with the conscious mind if the conscious mind does not believe in an omnipotent GOD. Perhaps the subconscious mind is where the keys are.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
I thank you Queenannie for the kind words, but again ...... I do not claim to be the only author of those words.

I know exactly what you mean--but you certainly expressed them well--something that doesn't always come by default with the experience.

How can I utilize my "gift" of free will to be seperate from that which is omnipotent?

Exactly.

Perhaps the subconscious mind is noncompatible with the conscious mind if the conscious mind does not believe in an omnipotent GOD. Perhaps the subconscious mind is where the keys are.

I think that all three 'minds'--conscious and it's 'sub' and 'super' partners must somehow be bound tightly in the end--just as Daniel's 3 comrades were bound when they were cast into the 'furnace of affliction.'

Unity seems to be the underlying rule to all existence--and it starts within.

Originally posted by queenannie38

Now, don't take that as me saying I don't believe in God--the God of Israel that created us all, that sent His Anointed to free the captives in the Last Year of Jubilee--I not only believe, I know* God is real--like Esoteric Teacher, I have experienced walking with God, and it is not something possible to describe to another who has not yet done so--all that can be done is to demonstrate personal integrity as support for telling whomever asks that yes, it is possible and it is the destiny of all souls. The rest is up to God, and you--but it's more about consciousness than it is boundaries and dogma--for the only hard and fast rule is LOVE--the love of God, each other, and of Truth.


*(this 'knowing' is a personal knowing, but nonetheless just as valid for me as is knowing that the curtain beside me is a lovely apple green color. Both of those 'knowings' I cannot prove to you--even if I sent a pic of the curtain, how can you really know that it is the same one that now hangs in the window to my left?)

I also believe in God,my concept of God is far removed from that of christianity but I'm not trying to knock people's beliefs,my personal belief is no more or less valid than that of anyone elses.
My own interpretation of heaven/hell is they are states of living right here on earth and therefore also states of mind,loss of connection to the spiritual aspect of our nature which I percieve to be the manifestation of God and by extension the failure to see the divine in others and nature brings about a mindset focused solely upon base physical needs and materialism.It would seem by looking at society no real happiness or fullfilment can be attained living in this way,that is what I would call hell and of course the reverse of this true for heaven.Awareness of our spirituality,love,empathy and respect for others and nature bring a more restful and contented mind which I view as equivelent to heaven.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

If GOD is not omnipotent, then GOD is not GOD.

If GOD is not within me, then GOD is not omnipotent.

If GOD is omnipotent, then GOD is within me.

ok,I'm fully in agreement with the concept that God is within us,"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?",this something we can feel within us,that little voice that speaks to us and as I said above our spiritual aspect,but the statement above is set out as a logical progression where it clearly isn't and this is one of the things I was trying to highlight previously,these are presumptions as to what God is.How can you know whether God is omnipotent or not ? A favourite one that atheists will throw at this claim is,is it possible for God to create a stone too heavy for God to lift?
This concept of being omnipotent,omniscient etc are the same as saying God is good and merciful.The concepts of goodness and mercy spring from the minds of man and are attributed to God by man based on what they imagine God to be.

Originally posted by queenannie38
Saint4God~this thread has had me thinking a lot,

Same here, it is an effective one and am enjoying what people have to say. This, candidly, is a point of contention between me and some brothers and sisters in my church. In the end though, we're John 3:16, we're just talking about the details.

Originally posted by queenannie38
and especially your post. I think you are right, in the sense that some of the discrepancies arise from semantics (as is always the case!).

Glad I could help . If I may return the compliment, you've got my attention on your posts and am considering all carefully. A lot of times the observers never say anything, but that could be because they're listening .

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
God has told no one anything

This I'll disagree on. He has told me things. All of which parallel what has been said before in the Record as well as others who live in the same light. I can say that before I took a step towards Him though, He did not tell me anything. Rightly so I think, I didn't care enough about Him to accept anything He had to say anyway.

Esoteric - Please don't think I'm ignoring you, rather listening. I think it'd be foolish on my part to say anything without taking more time to understand where you're coming from.

By the way, thanks for that history lesson on the U2U. I told my father the other night and he cracked up. One of those "strange but true" type of things he's into as well


[edit on 30-8-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Ras Dedan

I also believe in God,my concept of God is far removed from that of christianity but I'm not trying to knock people's beliefs,my personal belief is no more or less valid than that of anyone elses.

And who are we to remove you from your path?

I don't view myself as a "preaching" type, but I'll stand up on my Lever 2000 box for just a moment to say what must be said for the admirable quality of the statement above.

If GOD wanted to have the same (identical) relationship with all of us, then why are we not all identically the same?

GOD is that which will take a step towards you, if you take a step towards "GOD".

God cannot be defined within a word, if GOD is the word.

ALL, AHHHH!! = Allah

BOOO the DUH = Buddah

YA WAY = Yahwey

Follow?

I see very few differences between the teachings of those who claimed to be delivering a message. I know they are all right, or they would not be permitted to exist, for how can anything that isn't true be true?

---------------------------------------------------------------
A Symbolic Experiment:
1) Spin a globe
2) Throw a dart at the globe
3) Draw a straight line in any direction. (keep in mind the Earth/Globe is not perfectly round)
4) As long as the path is STRAIGHT, then eventually you will be right back where you started.
NOTE: If going straight north, south, east, or west: The trip will be far shorter.

My point?

To help people stay on their own path will eventually lead them to themselves, which is what they are looking for to begin with. Do not try to make them deviate from that path. Instead, help them:
Ask a logical question
Get a logical answer
Ask the next logical question
Get a logical answer
Ask the next logical question
..... and so on and so forth, until ....
The last logical question

My own interpretation of heaven/hell is they are states of living right here on earth and therefore also states of mind,loss of connection to the spiritual aspect of our nature which I percieve to be the manifestation of God and by extension the failure to see the divine in others and nature brings about a mindset focused solely upon base physical needs and materialism.

Outstanding definition.

Me? I think your definition is perfect. However, I think there is a place for a merciful GOD to fullfill prophecy without negating the true spirit of the concepts of heaven and hell.

Just a thought, here it is:

When humanity achieves something (not sure what) then judgment day. Those who want to be like GOD get sent back to the beginning of humanity's start, and those who wish to be with GOD get to proceed into the future, and serve as guardians for other worlds, like those who have served us. Some ascend, some get what they want. Free Will in the buff.
Just a thought.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

If GOD is not omnipotent, then GOD is not GOD.

If GOD is not within me, then GOD is not omnipotent.

If GOD is omnipotent, then GOD is within me.

How can you know whether God is omnipotent or not ?

By the definition of what GOD is. If GOD isn't all knowing, then how can it be GOD? If GOD is not omnipotent, then where is where GOD isn't?

A favourite one that atheists will throw at this claim is,is it possible for God to create a stone too heavy for God to lift?

perhaps it is possible for GOD to create a stone too heavy for GOD to lift.
At a heist .... umm atheist ..... (i like word play, sorry)

I got this one !!!

Take the word "GOD" out of the equasion, since it means so many things to so many people. The word "GOD", simply has too many connotations to be accepted by all, Good Or Damned.

Let's replace the word "GOD" with the word "TRUTH"

Let's replace the word "Stone" with the mightiest of negative emotions:
FEAR .... from which all negative emotions are derived.

Truth is Truth did not want to be alone.
Truth is Truth did not want to cease to exist.
Truth is Truth created the second strongest, most pure thought that allowed it to continue to exist, and not be alone.
Truth is Truth needed LOVE in order for Truth to LOVE Truth.
However, Truth was ignorant of FEAR. Not only not knowing FEAR, but not comprehending it as well.
And, as soon as Truth willed LOVE into existance ...
Love needed its polar opposite in order to maintain balance ...
FEAR was the byproduct of LOVE.

FEAR created HATE.
LOVE was in an eternal battle with both FEAR and HATE.
Truth does not want to not know LOVE.

FEAR is the stone that is not to big.
Truth created us, so that we may aid in putting Humpdy Dumpdy back together again.

So, the answer is yes, and no.
For, Truth ("GOD") can create something powerful enough to move that stone with LOVE and LOVE for the TRUTH.

Just a thought. But, that thought requires us to forgive TRUTH for it's ignorance, for in the beginning there was only TRUTH, and FEAR was not of it.

Just a thought.

This concept of being omnipotent,omniscient etc are the same as saying God is good and merciful.The concepts of goodness and mercy spring from the minds of man and are attributed to God by man based on what they imagine God to be.

In their image .....

Good post, by the way.



[edit on 08/12/71 by Esoteric Teacher]

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
God has told no one anything

This I'll disagree on. He has told me things. All of which parallel what has been said before in the Record as well as others who live in the same light. I can say that before I took a step towards Him though, He did not tell me anything. Rightly so I think, I didn't care enough about Him to accept anything He had to say anyway.

Very interesting and please excuse my scepticism but I'm extremely doubtful of the factual basis of this statement and it's entirely unprovable one way or the other.I can accept the concept as stated above that our conscience etc are derived from God,conscience is something that is universal within man,but God actually telling us things if we accept HIM is another matter.Again your reasoning gets back to God only accepting people who approach through this Roman ideology,which in terms of human history is relatively new,everyone else can go by the wayside.If God is so strict about the acceptable way of worship we should have had this set out from the start instead of waiting till a mere 2,000 years ago or is it just that the rules were changed at that point.
The usage of male pronouns He and Him is also interesting,God is definitely male then? HE is all these otherwordly things but HE is also bound by gender ?

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
Very interesting and please excuse my scepticism but I'm extremely doubtful of the factual basis of this statement

*Gasp!* I skeptic on ATS? I feel ya my friend, I'm a skeptic too.

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
and it's entirely unprovable one way or the other.

My experience may be unprovable, but that does not mean you cannot obtain your own proof that God exists.

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
I can accept the concept as stated above that our conscience etc are derived from God,conscience is something that is universal within man,but God actually telling us things if we accept HIM is another matter.

Er, not what I'm saying. My concious has led me to things that were wrong, thank God He stopped it. Hard to explain, something that'd have to be experienced...

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
Again your reasoning gets back to God only accepting people who approach through this Roman ideology,which in terms of human history is relatively new,everyone else can go by the wayside.

Candidly, I don't care what Roman ideology is. Sorry Rome...or Romans...or whoever I just offended...

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
If God is so strict about the acceptable way of worship we should have had this set out from the start instead of waiting till a mere 2,000 years ago or is it just that the rules were changed at that point.

It's a growth experience that we had to go through as humanity. Looking at the Book on the whole, one can see the progression of thought and can understand why in the beginning, with the way we were thinking/acting, we had to do things one way (which we constantly disobeyed), and now another. We went 'downhill' to such a point we needed a lift...and got it.

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
The usage of male pronouns He and Him is also interesting,God is definitely male then? HE is all these otherwordly things but HE is also bound by gender ?

No, sorry if I misrepresented. The english language doesn't use gender neutrals, though I'm a big advocate for Sie (for He/She) or Hir (for Him/Her). I see no need to God to have a gender, though am currently discussing that on this thread:

Is there a Mrs. God?

[edit on 30-8-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
To help people stay on their own path will eventually lead them to themselves, which is what they are looking for to begin with. Do not try to make them deviate from that path. Instead, help them:
Ask a logical question
Get a logical answer
Ask the next logical question
Get a logical answer
Ask the next logical question
..... and so on and so forth, until ....
The last logical question

I'm not seeking to make anyone deviate and while I accept that every spiritual concept requires an act of faith,I also think it's essential to question beliefs especially your own.
Despite there being no hard and fast answers that can be pinned down on these matters and times when we must just hold our hands up and say "I don't know" people should be able to give as I think you suggest at least some logical reasoning behind beliefs,one thing I notice about many christians though and I'm only mentioning them because it's mainly them I come in contact with and grew up around is there is no other truth other than that which they profess and many refuse to look any further than the bible as a source of wisdom.This to me is without logic and surely nobody can progress without at least some logical thought.

How can you know whether God is omnipotent or not ?

By the definition of what GOD is. If GOD isn't all knowing, then how can it be GOD? If GOD is not omnipotent, then where is where GOD isn't?

This is what I'm getting at though,where does this definition of God derive from? God doesn't in reality have to be what we want God to be,God is what God is.The limits of human understanding and imagination define the concepts of God but do not define the reality of God.
I think I understand what you mean,you make a lot of good points and I enjoyed reading your posts and I'm not trying to be picky but it's something I feel is an important point.
Take a child for example it often appears to children that their parents know everything and can do everything but this doesn't make it actual reality.

Ras Dedan,

I Like your post A LOT. Thought prevoking and intellectual as well.

I did not intend for the "deviation of path" thing to seem as an attack on your character, it truly wasn't. Just my feelings on how we should treat one another.

I have to go for now, but I will be back on ATS this Wed.

Talk more then, definatley.

Who defined GOD?

Good brain food.

Originally posted by saint4God
My experience may be unprovable, but that does not mean you cannot obtain your own proof that God exists.

I'm not denying the existence of God just my doubts over actual communication,although I will say that while I do believe in God this does not and never will constitute proof of God's existence,proof is something you can hold in your hand or put in a jar,I never be able to whip out my God jar and stun atheists into silence with it.

Er, not what I'm saying. My concious has led me to things that were wrong, thank God He stopped it. Hard to explain, something that'd have to be experienced...

No,sorry for the confusion it's what I was saying previously about conscience.I could accept that as being interpreted as communication with God but other than that I don't follow.

Candidly, I don't care what Roman ideology is. Sorry Rome...or Romans...or whoever I just offended...

The Roman ideology I refered to is christianity.

It's a growth experience that we had to go through as humanity. Looking at the Book on the whole, one can see the progression of thought and can understand why in the beginning, with the way we were thinking/acting, we had to do things one way (which we constantly disobeyed), and now another. We went 'downhill' to such a point we needed a lift...and got it.

If you look around do you really see a great improvement in the thinking and actions of people.In all the countries that profess to live by the bible and whose societies are supposedly founded on it's teachings can you point out even one of them that has stood by these principles and is a shining example of this in action.

Thank you for the compliment Esoteric Teacher and I didn't think of it as an attack and fully agree we should treat each other with respect.I'm happy to discuss anything with you and look forward to it.

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
I'm not denying the existence of God just my doubts over actual communication,although I will say that while I do believe in God this does not and never will constitute proof of God's existence,proof is something you can hold in your hand or put in a jar,

Ah, well then we're talking about two kinds of proof then. Not all proof is tangible. I'm sure something has proven itself to be true to you yet you have no remnant of evidence, yes?

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
I never be able to whip out my God jar and stun atheists into silence with it.

LOL! Which is both frustrating and beautiful as the same time. Frustrating because you cannot show and share that treasure in a physical way. Beautiful because He wants each of us to have our own personal proof that's individual to us, showing that "hey, here is your proof because I love you." Which is cool I think.

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
No,sorry for the confusion it's what I was saying previously about conscience.I could accept that as being interpreted as communication with God but other than that I don't follow.

There were some things I thought were good ideas, thoughts or rationales, but as they like to say "God intervened", showing me what I was thinking/doing was wrong and needed to step back and take a good hard look at it. Moments (or sometimes days) later I go "how did I not see that before?" Sometimes indirectly (through others, situations, experiences or actions), sometimes directly (not a voice that you hear through the ear, it more or less is a 'voice' that goes right into the brain). My best description is when you remember someone telling you something, then they're not currently telling you, but you can hear their voice and they're talking to you.

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
The Roman ideology I refered to is christianity.

Fortunately for me, Roman ideology is independent of Christianity when you have a Bible in your hands.

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
If you look around do you really see a great improvement in the thinking and actions of people.In all the countries that profess to live by the bible and whose societies are supposedly founded on it's teachings can you point out even one of them that has stood by these principles and is a shining example of this in action.

Candidly I don't see any nation on earth coming close to doing what the Bible says. I think the U.S has a lot of good things principly, though is a far cry from being a member of the Kingdom of God as described in the Book.

What a lovely thread! Good exploration totally sans backbiting and judgment!



Reading to catch up, I had many replies come to mind--I am torn between rambling and addressing points individually. But, given my need for lifelong membership in 'On and On' Anon (meaning I can turn any short story into a long one. :mnky I think point by point is best.

First of all, to Ras Dedan~~

[i, you said:
I also believe in God,my concept of God is far removed from that of christianity but I'm not trying to knock people's beliefs,my personal belief is no more or less valid than that of anyone elses.

Yes, I just read your post in How do We Make the World Great through Spirit and I immediately 'knew where you were at.' Well--not exactly--that would be presumptious--but rather, I got a distinct understanding of where you are coming from. I'm just curious--is Rastafarianism your main example?

you said:
therefore also states of mind,loss of connection to the spiritual aspect of our nature which I percieve to be the manifestation of God

Yes—this are my understandings. ‘Consciousness’ in the sense of true unity with The Mind that created all things by thought and word—that was the ‘Garden.’ The snake is the ‘twisting leviathan’ in the earth—representing the state of fleshly mortal existence—earth is the realm of matter and time only exists within that realm, in a helical fashion that is perceived by mortals as linear—and that prison of perception is where we are bound as slaves to death—with no other perception available, we have no choice but to die.

you then said:
by extension the failure to see the divine in others and nature brings about a mindset focused solely upon base physical needs and materialism

Yes—that’s the knowledge of ‘evil’. Also—it’s definitely impossible to see the divine in others if we don’t first realize/acknowledge the divine in ourselves. Funny how Christianity won’t permit those who obey it to acknowledge that divine seed. It says it all throughout the bible! They say it is a sin to aspire to divinity—and so in damning restoration, they maintain the state of the fallen. As well—they think it is best to avoid the nature of ‘sin’—which is obviously the necessary first step toward divinity. IOW, the dark must be first in order for the illumination to be understood. Darkness cannot conquer light—but even the smallest light can overcome the darkest dark, by rendering it ‘not as dark.’ A bunch of little lights, and you’ve got a big light.

you then said:
This concept of being omnipotent,omniscient etc are the same as saying God is good and merciful.The concepts of goodness and mercy spring from the minds of man and are attributed to God by man based on what they imagine God to be.

I understand what you are saying—and at best, many of the words that can best describe God have been bastardized by fakers and those who desire so bad they convince themselves—causing the world at large to misunderstand.

Now, as I said, I believe in the ‘God of Israel’—but by no means do I say this is an exclusive way that is ‘jewish’ or ‘christian’—no religion has sole right or access to God. In fact, the only religion I consider ‘valid’ is now extinct—and wasn’t so much a religion but a theocracy—set up for the sole purpose of demonstrating
· The inability for man to see far enough ahead of himself to keep from falling to disaster—and his inability to even understand that inability. We only see the ground ahead of us, but all that we see is not all there is, yet we think our own eyes are all we need.
· The inability of man to guide himself, in his present state, toward the true unity that is ‘natural’—the only path of which is love, truth, and forgiveness—because of being born ‘blind’ in the prison of mortal flesh, we needed a light to shine as a beacon on our path.
· The contrast of man’s government against a Living Theocracy.

That was created for an example, that was never expected to ‘succeed’—and the ‘seed’ of those first examples was planted for the sole reason of continuing that example.

‘The Father’ is truly pure Spirit—not many grasp that. Obviously, if flesh is not conscious to spirit, then it remains unaware of it. Therefore, to guide the flesh there must be given a ‘fleshly’ form of that same Spirit. The first example who is appointed to lead the subsequent examples—who are named after one of the very first ones who became aware of the consciousness of God’s Spirit—and hence the name ‘one who prevails with God.’ One who endures with the Spirit of consciousness in a world largely unaware. This was never truly understood except by those who actually prevailed—the ones, who over the centuries, have allowed their light to shine upon our way, and in so doing, the light grows brighter, and that, in turn, makes the dark corners seem even darker than they did at first. That is also the secret to the idea of the full revelation of Jesus Christ. When enough light shines that all cannot help but see what is truly lurking in those dark corners—which are getting smaller and tighter by the minute—then truth will become obvious to all, and then we will understand that we have been restored from the fall. We will look around and see the world as it is, truly—paradise.

When someone says ‘go to heaven’—I always want to say ‘Where is that? Where are you going?’ Heaven is both a state of mind and existence, and it lies beyond the boundaries of linear time. Hell lies within, and even the idea of ‘purgatory’ is more real than it might seem—if you’re willing to see the purging process going on right now in the human population and in yourself. How can we go to ‘hell’ and the ‘grave’ when we are already there? We are dead now—we must wake up and live—that is the goal.

I’m directing my thoughts directly to you, Ras Dedan—and so I don’t use the words I normally do—since usually I am addressing christians or those who follow, at least, the terms and words used in the bible. But the meaning underneath is all the same—it is always a sin to be selfish, and we cannot live by our own decision—all who dwell in the darkness need a beacon to lead us out. Christ was not saying that Christianity was the only way to God—He said He, Himself, was the ‘way the truth and the light.’ Because He was the first and only perfect example of those things we cannot understand on our own—and being the literal embodiment of Spirit and Truth, is truly the only Way—meaning path, way of life, doorway, the only Rescuer that can save all lost. Religion saves no one, and it frees no one. Only the individual can find the God who is the Creator of all—not just of Israel—Israel is the name of the workforce of men assigned to help illuminate the dark. It is not a special and luxurious position of power and authority—it is a position of true servitude, reviled of all self-0riented men, appointed not to gain something others are not able to—only to demonstrate and show, by actions, not words, that life is meant for all of creation.

I didn’t want to be so long, but I want to be clear. This will be misunderstood by most, regardless, though--and not something I am surprised at.