god only gave us conditioned free will?

after many conversations with my brother on religion, and all that jazz, i began to think about the free will that was supposedly given to us by god. but i supose everyone has their own take on what free will is, mine being the meaning those words hold in themselves, complete unrestricted choice. now, if we take a look at the heaven and hell parable that is set before us in scripture, in the end, your soul is cast into either or. an obvious fact is that:

we've been presented with a guide to supposed salvation, laced with the laws by which are required to be followed inorder to achieve said salvation.

in that, we have the choice to follow it, or not. this is a true example of free will, a choice. but if you look further into the rabbits hole, you see how conditioned, and not so free we are. you'll either be sent through chute A, or chute B, regardless of what choices you make, there are still only two choices. a limit for the limitless? what if one does not wish to go down either chute? or instead wanting a chute C option, or maybe also chute D option, and so on and so forth.

it becomes apparent that our purpose is no different than what any inventor in his shop would have for his inventions. i know it's not a very comforting feeling for those "free" spirits out there, but it is nonetheless an important observation, from a biblical perspective.

i'd appreciate feedback on this if you will, especially from those more familiar with scripture than I. perhaps you can confirm or reject that there is no use of the term free will in the bible, and that it is just presumed. that's just something i heard.

def.out

[edit on 15-8-2005 by deaf fences hit]

Interesting post, I've never thought about it from that perspective. I would like to hear other peoples opinions about this subject. I'm pretty sure there will be people who will find offense to your post.

[edit on 15-8-2005 by Seeking Nirvana]

[quote[ you'll either be sent through chute A, or chute B, regardless of what choices you make, there are still only two choices. a limit for the limitless? what if one does not wish to go down either chute? or instead wanting a chute C option, or maybe also chute D option, and so on and so forth.

Those "chutes" are available to us on a dailly basis. Those that pick the wrong chute already live in their hell.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
[quote[ you'll either be sent through chute A, or chute B, regardless of what choices you make, there are still only two choices. a limit for the limitless? what if one does not wish to go down either chute? or instead wanting a chute C option, or maybe also chute D option, and so on and so forth.

Those "chutes" are available to us on a dailly basis. Those that pick the wrong chute already live in their hell.

sorry if the example i used sounded dull, but i never questioned the rate of their availability. it doesn't change the fact that there are only two choices, red or blue pill, call it what you want. it is still conditioned free will.

def.

[edit on 15-8-2005 by deaf fences hit]

I'm not sure what you mean by conditioned. I agree we have a choice, which I believe is a proof of free-will in my mind, that there are plans set forth for either one and that there is one or the other available to us. An addendum I'd like to include is in a number of places, (Revelation 20:11 being one of them) there is written about a judgement for those who've not known of the two chutes or for whatever reason has chosen neither. I do not expect this judgement be easy at all by the words used, but ultimate it is as you say, chute A or chute B. Hope that helps and would certainly welcome any questions from those truly seeking answers.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

Please stay out of my chute.

It's the last one that curves up.

P.S. The rabbit was over rated.

You nailed it.

You can run with Jesus and live in eternity with perfect peace and purpose, Chute A.

Or, you can do anything other than that and burn in the Lake of Fire for all eternity, Chute B.

I don't know about you but I burned the tip of my finger on a matchhead once and it was some crazy, stingin, freaky, pain!

And that was only a 2nd degree burn on the tip of my finger that covered an area about the size of...well... a matchhead!

The choice is yours.


Machine

Originally posted by deaf fences hit
we have the choice to follow it, or not.

Actually we only have a choice to NOT follow it. Any choice to follow it is credited to God.

Adam and Eve had thier Eden, until they disobeyed God. WE will have Salvation as long as we do not disobey God.

ANd why is having free will so important? we technically make slaves out of our pets, yet love them at the same time, as they love us.

I think you hit it on the spot. And personally there is only one choice. God is of love. Devil is of hate. which chute i want to go to is only obvious. Like What Black eyed peas said. (where is the love at). Why would i want to live in hate. When I can live in perfect harmony.

[edit on 15-8-2005 by slymattb]

Originally posted by Machine
You can run with Jesus and live in eternity with perfect peace and purpose, Chute A.

Or, you can do anything other than that and burn in the Lake of Fire for all eternity, Chute B.

LOL! Don't you know silly Christian? God reserves salvation for freethinkers. The Bible is a trick. Those who fall for it are unworthy of god (if he exists). How do I know this? I know it through this:

Proposition: Faith is a valid form of argument.
Premise: I take it on faith that the proposition is false.

A paradox ensues, thus proving that the proposition is false. The premise can not be denied if the proposition is accepted, so it must be the proposition and not the premise that is false. Thus we know it to be true that faith is not a valid form of argument.

God loves truth, right?

(of course, we left out chute C - which is that when you die, you are simply dead forever)

Spamandham
LOL! Don't you know silly Christian? God reserves salvation for freethinkers. The Bible is a trick. Those who fall for it are unworthy of god (if he exists).

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Spamandham, there is only one path to God. That you would conjure a new path out of thin air does not amuse God in the slightest. Satan rejoices in your decision to do it your own way!

Spamandham
How do I know this? I know it through this:
Proposition: Faith is a valid form of argument.
Premise: I take it on faith that the proposition is false.

A paradox ensues, thus proving that the proposition is false. The premise can not be denied if the proposition is accepted, so it must be the proposition and not the premise that is false. Thus we know it to be true that faith is not a valid form of argument.

As for your convoluted logic it both saddens me to read it and also brings forth an amusing smile. Let me ask you a simple question. If your rock solid theory written above is indeed true and right, how do you expect to enforce this fact on God?

When you are brought into judgment before God and confound him with the brilliance of your higher reasoning and he doesn’t agree, then what?

You’ll only be right.

Right in Hell.


Machine

Originally posted by Jehosephat

Originally posted by deaf fences hit
we have the choice to follow it, or not.

Actually we only have a choice to NOT follow it. Any choice to follow it is credited to God.

Adam and Eve had thier Eden, until they disobeyed God. WE will have Salvation as long as we do not disobey God.

ANd why is having free will so important? we technically make slaves out of our pets, yet love them at the same time, as they love us.

well really, free will is as important as anything else that we possess the ability to do. i was merely trying to define it though the bible's perspective, and the common belief that our free will is so pure and unchallenged, when through the bible, it does not dictate this at all. i already stated my views on free will in the first post, this is just another viewpoint.

and yea, we do practically make slaves out of animals, so perhaps that's why it makes so much sense from that view.

Originally posted by saint4God
I'm not sure what you mean by conditioned. I agree we have a choice, which I believe is a proof of free-will in my mind, that there are plans set forth for either one and that there is one or the other available to us. An addendum I'd like to include is in a number of places, (Revelation 20:11 being one of them) there is written about a judgement for those who've not known of the two chutes or for whatever reason has chosen neither. I do not expect this judgement be easy at all by the words used, but ultimate it is as you say, chute A or chute B. Hope that helps and would certainly welcome any questions from those truly seeking answers.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

it's conditioned in a way that there appear to be SET choices that we HAVE to make, and that violates the term free will. freedom entitles the ability to not only choose from anothers proposed condition, but to also ignore it and/or create choices of ones own will, if need be.

Originally posted by deaf fences hit
it's conditioned in a way that there appear to be SET choices that we HAVE to make, and that violates the term free will. freedom entitles the ability to not only choose from anothers proposed condition, but to also ignore it and/or create choices of ones own will, if need be.

Thanks for clarifying. I thought it meant conditioning, like a way of constant exercise or practice. I think I see what you mean now, though we do have the choice to believe whatever we want. The end result is what's conditional. Kinda like telling a kid, "Play in the yard with your friends all you want this afternoon, but at 5 o'clock you've got to get in here for dinner". This doesn't negate a child's free-will to think and play all they want, but they're accountable in the end.

Originally posted by Machine
Spamandham, there is only one path to God. That you would conjure a new path out of thin air does not amuse God in the slightest. Satan rejoices in your decision to do it your own way!

I'm not the one who's conjured the new path, it was always god's plan to favor the skeptics and freethinkers. By the way, Satan isn't real, that's just part of the trick.

Originally posted by Machine

Spamandham
How do I know this? I know it through this:
Proposition: Faith is a valid form of argument.
Premise: I take it on faith that the proposition is false.

A paradox ensues, thus proving that the proposition is false. The premise can not be denied if the proposition is accepted, so it must be the proposition and not the premise that is false. Thus we know it to be true that faith is not a valid form of argument.

As for your convoluted logic

What's convoluted about it? Demonstration of paradox is one way of ascertaining falsehoods. This simple proof shows that the concept of faith contradicts itself and thus cannot be valid. God wants you to accept logic. Logic is the word of god.

Originally posted by Machine
it both saddens me to read it and also brings forth an amusing smile. Let me ask you a simple question. If your rock solid theory written above is indeed true and right, how do you expect to enforce this fact on God?

God enforces it. It's his nature to be rational. He's very upset over the way the Old Testament portrayed him as a raving lunatic, and he's also annoyed over the New Testament's betrayal of him as an irrational father/son/spirit trinity thingy.

Originally posted by Machine
When you are brought into judgment before God and confound him with the brilliance of your higher reasoning and he doesn’t agree, then what?

You’ll only be right.

Right in Hell.

He won't disagree, because I'm right. There is no hell, no Satan, no afterlife. Rather than throwing about your stupid sheepbrained Bible threats, why don't you try firing up the gray matter between your ears and prove me wrong.

You can sit there and spout religious insults, threats, and other nonsense, or you can demonstrate there is a rational basis to it.

(by the way, the tone of the reply is a direct response to your thinly vieled threat)

Originally posted by spamandhamI'm not the one who's conjured the new path, it was always god's plan to favor the skeptics and freethinkers. By the way, Satan isn't real, that's just part of the trick.[\Quote]


Lol seams to me you admitted there is a God by saying (it was always god's plan to favor the skeptics and freethinkers.) Second accoreding to the bible there is a devil and he has angels, and there is a eternal punishment. it all over the bible try reading revlation 20 v 1-10 satan's doom.


[Quote]What's convoluted about it? Demonstration of paradox is one way of ascertaining falsehoods. This simple proof shows that the concept of faith contradicts itself and thus cannot be valid. God wants you to accept logic. Logic is the word of god.[\Quote]


Lol you give a defence that faith is wrong yet by your own words say God is alive. (God wants you to accept logic. Logic is the word of god.)


[Quote]God enforces it. It's his nature to be rational. He's very upset over the way the Old Testament portrayed him as a raving lunatic, and he's also annoyed over the New Testament's betrayal of him as an irrational father/son/spirit trinity thingy.[\Quote]

Are you saying God is alive again????God Bless ya on aysing there is no trinity

IF there is a God, there is a way he wants you to live your Life for him. And if you dont live your life the way he wants. there are punishment for that. Accoreding to the bible there is a hell and there is satan, and there is punishment ( accoreding to the bible) for the evil hearted. And there is a life after death. Most religions believe in demons. So if there evil in the world. So is God. God does not want you to find him by evidents only. But by the way of life.



I thought I had this quote thing worked but guess not, why is the quote srounding what i said???????help I just cant figure it out.

[edit on 20-8-2005 by slymattb]

Originally posted by slymattb

Originally posted by spamandham
I'm not the one who's conjured the new path, it was always god's plan to favor the skeptics and freethinkers. By the way, Satan isn't real, that's just part of the trick.

Lol seams to me you admitted there is a God by saying (it was always god's plan to favor the skeptics and freethinkers.)

I don't know that there is or isn't a god, but if there is, he favors people who admit they do not know if he exists.

Originally posted by slymattb
Second accoreding to the bible there is a devil and he has angels, and there is a eternal punishment. it all over the bible try reading revlation 20 v 1-10 satan's doom.

The Bible is part of the trick. God despises faith, so he allowed books and such to be written espousing faith so that the true unbelievers would be revealed.

Originally posted by slymattb
Lol you give a defence that faith is wrong yet by your own words say God is alive. (God wants you to accept logic. Logic is the word of god.)

It's a mystery. Unless you disbelieve, you can not understand.

Originally posted by slymattb
Are you saying God is alive again????

Oh no, I never said that.

Originally posted by slymattb
IF there is a God, there is a way he wants you to live your Life for him. And if you dont live your life the way he wants. there are punishment for that.

God doesn't care how we live our lives. The only thing that matters is that you disbelieve. Since the Bible is a trick, you can safely ignore everything in it.

(on the quote thing, you have to use a forward slash to end it, not a backslash)

Originally posted by spamandham
I don't know that there is or isn't a god, but if there is, he favors people who admit they do not know if he exists.

The only reason God favor's those that have no proof of him, is because of faith. He wants people to follow him that never accually had proof that he was alive. He wants faith.

The Bible is part of the trick. God despises faith, so he allowed books and such to be written espousing faith so that the true unbelievers would be revealed.

Why would God build three religion on faith promoting faith, when it is suppostely wrong. that does not even make sences. God does not despises faith, where is your proof of that. Your only saying God is alive by saying he despises anything. And if you saying those that dont believe are going to be saved, you are wrong.

(God wants you to accept logic. Logic is the word of god.It's a mystery. Unless you disbelieve, you can not understand.

And yet you have no proof of what you think God wants. Besides there is logic in believeing God, and a life after death. Its blindness thats makes you want to believe that someone watching you and your actions.

Oh no, I never said that.

Yes you did, a couple of times, by saying what God wants, is to admitte he alive.

God doesn't care how we live our lives. The only thing that matters is that you disbelieve. Since the Bible is a trick, you can safely ignore everything in it.

And yet you say he's alive again by saying (God doesn't care how we live our lives) And the only things matters is not that you disbelieve in God. If God is alive, he does not want you to disbelieve in him. But to believe in him by faith. you will never find proof that he is alive.

Originally posted by deaf fences hit
everyone has their own take on what free will is, mine being the meaning those words hold in themselves, complete unrestricted choice.

Complete unrestricted choice--in such a case as this one you've brought out for discussion--really can't exist for all humans equally concerning the question of choosing God or not. The reason basically boils down to variables such as opportunity to hear about God, state of mind and past experiences (which surely influence willingingness and desire), just to name a couple.

My own take on what true free will means is this: free will is the ability to make choices independent of the cause-and-effect mechanism and the ability to create any thing at any time independent of any other force. IOW, to me, only God, the Father, has true free will--at this time--it is somehow synonymous with the state of complete conscious awareness on a transcendental level.

But that's rather deep, and as I said, is my own definition. So, for the sake of what your inquiry pertains to, I'll just address it from the idea of free will meaning the ability of each of us to choose what we allow to guide us, all the way to the fork at the end of the road, with a right turn to 'heaven' and a left turn to 'hell'--according to what I understand from the bible.

now, if we take a look at the heaven and hell parable that is set before us in scripture, in the end, your soul is cast into either or. an obvious fact is that:we've been presented with a guide to supposed salvation, laced with the laws by which are required to be followed inorder to achieve said salvation.

I'm not clear on what you are referring to as a parable--the entire bible or a certain passage found within?

At any rate--here is how I understand it:

No where in the bible is it said that man has free-will--it's something that most people infer, somehow--maybe stemming from the incident in the garden of Eden, either the disobedience itself, or the idea of eating of the 'tree of the knowledge of good and evil', in some way bestowed upon us the ability to choose what we wanted to do. Most mainstream 'christians' don't perceive that the serpent was put there for a reason--just as the whole golden opportunity to reject the Creator's authority in favor of human self-government was a the desired and planned situation--instigated for the long-term benefits that still remain mostly hidden to most of the bible-reading population.

The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil didn't bring autonomy into the human experience--it was the fundamental manifestation of duality--the juxtaposition of spiritual/material, good/evil, light/dark, etc... A very necessary step in our development according to the reason we were created. And so, the act of disobedience was intended, planned, and determined ahead of time--Eve didn't choose to disobey God--that was the way it had to be, and so it was.

Those of us who are attached to the belief we currently have free will-and that such are the main instruments for our prospects in death or life--have not yet totally overcame the duality of our natures--the fact that we are 'spirits in a material world', made of up of things both light and dark, positive and negative. Our whole goal is not to deny our duality, but to overcome it, making it a unity that is an 'experienced unity'--making us conscious living entities who have experienced both sides of the spectrum and have developed true wisdom (when we get through this present age).

So it is crucial that we have some sort of 'free will' with which to operate--to live and experience all manner of things, making mistakes and building successes, having good times and bad times, both of our own making as well as being sometimes influenced by the actions of others. We are given not 'free will', but the opportunity to make choices for the purpose of learning.

Even though we don't really have true free will in the present--the whole goal of our mortal lifetimes of learning and experiencing is to bring us into a state of mature and conscious awareness in which we are each fully capable of error-free self-government--and that is when we will be truly possessing of free will and the ability to create what we wish to create.

True free will is a powerful privilege/ability that requires much training--just like some huge automatic weapon in the middle of central park. In the wrong hands--such as someone who is driven by poorly understood emotions and an underdeveloped sense of 'good' and 'bad' (duality)--it would only be a matter of seconds before catastrophic damage occurs--at the least a considerable amount of havoc will be wreaked at the expense of all involved.

Most of christendom vehemently deny the idea of 'universal reconciliation'--meaning the salvation of all of mankind--taking poorly understood scriptures that apply to something else altogether and twisting them into a doctrine of 'chute a or chute b'. This gets really confusing when other undeniable concepts that are legitimately found in the bible are brought into the mix--such as the idea of predestination and the manipulation of men's actions and attitudes by the hand of God--unknown to those being 'manipulated' but according to God's own purpose. The argument for 'heaven or hell forever' falls flat on it's face when the focus is turned toward identifying God's purpose for steering men this way or that--in ways that seem rather unfair and totally petty, on the surface.

But that's what happens when the ultimate truth in the bible is denied and ignored--which is the fact that there is no need for free will regarding the ultimate outcome of each soul--because (and it says this explicitly)--for in Adam all were made subject to death, so through Christ all are forgiven, freed from death, and reconciled to God. The choices we are given to make, even if predetermined by God--are not the determining factor in whether we live on a cloud or smolder in flames for ever and ever. The things that we are led, compelled, and prepared to do in our lives are all for the ultimate purpose God has for revealing His nature and being to us.

And His nature is not hardly known in the world at all--all those who say He will send some to hell because they just didn't have the good sense some others did (their view of themselves--it is never the ones who preach hell who are going there--only everyone else!) and that it all depends upon our own ability to believe yet we have no choice in deciding whether to believe, because obviously, someone's got to go to hell--to serve as an example (*I guess*) of what happens to those who aren't smart enough/allowed/able to know and believe in order to provide God with the final portion necessary to save our sorry you-know-what's....

I didn't mean to go on so---I hope it makes sense, somehow. The bottom line is that we don't have free-will--YET--but don't need it either--because the plan from the very beginning, from the time we were all created into life--was to raise us up into spiritually mature beings able to safely and constructively live for an endless duration with the unrestricted power of free will at our fingertips--we will all be given the same gift of ilfe that Adam was created for--that we were all created for.

God did not create us to kill us or torment us, or to play mad scientist in the lab with our pitiful short mortal existences. He created living souls in order to love them and give them the gift of life and autonomy.

firstly, i'm sorry if my initial post sounded too scientific, and robbed of many of the underlining principles you mentioned. i really enjoyed reading your reply, as it has helped me consider some new possibilities.

Originally posted by queenannie38
Complete unrestricted choice--in such a case as this one you've brought out for discussion--really can't exist for all humans equally concerning the question of choosing God or not...

i agree and mentioned this in my first post.

My own take on what true free will means is this: free will is the ability to make choices independent of the cause-and-effect mechanism and the ability to create any thing at any time independent of any other force.

i particularily liked this interpretation.

I'm not clear on what you are referring to as a parable--the entire bible or a certain passage found within?

in regards to heaven and hell, people have questioned wether they are actually states of mind, or real places you go to. i think both are relative, yet was pertaining to the actual places in which most believe you go to after judgement.

No where in the bible is it said that man has free-will...

as i mentioned in the first post, thanks for clarifying this.

The bottom line is that we don't have free-will--YET--but don't need it either--because the plan from the very beginning, from the time we were all created into life--was to raise us up into spiritually mature beings able to safely and constructively live for an endless duration with the unrestricted power of free will at our fingertips--we will all be given the same gift of ilfe that Adam was created for--that we were all created for.

God did not create us to kill us or torment us, or to play mad scientist in the lab with our pitiful short mortal existences. He created living souls in order to love them and give them the gift of life and autonomy.

what i think i was trying to do with this thread is consider those who have no desire to be part of the plan, if an unrestricted free will was indefinately accessible, and to bring the topic of free will out from some religious level. but i suppose according to the bible it does not. perhaps it's something we all have to eventually adjust to, or accept, and face, if infact it is all bound and true. but then again even when you said this:

God did not create us to kill us or torment us, or to play mad scientist in the lab with our pitiful short mortal existences. He created living souls in order to love them and give them the gift of life and autonomy.

one could argue that it doesn't make sense why an infinite being would need anything when it is infact everything in the first place. but i suppose the answer to that, is because it CAN. and i don't think we're in a position to argue or even understand something like that anyways.