god only gave us conditioned free will?

Originally posted by deaf fences hit

what i think i was trying to do with this thread is consider those who have no desire to be part of the plan, if an unrestricted free will was indefinately accessible, and to bring the topic of free will out from some religious level.

Aahhh....I see. That very concept is one that I was searching for myself, not too long ago. The conclusion I'm at on that, in the present moment, is that no, there is no option other than God, in the end. I believe that the bounds of the Ancient of Days is the same as the bounds of reality--and so therefore, nothing can exist outside of God. And so that does away with that certain ideation of hell which some have that says hell is the only place that is separate from God--it's impossible for any of creation to exist outside the consciousness of the Creator.

And so I've come to understand there is a certain psychological twist within mankind's stubborn belief in a physical hell of eternal torment--it is, in a large part, a subconscious deception that some use in order to feel that, in the end, they will succeed in estranging themselves from God, being so 'evil' that they will be condemned to hell, away from God! And it's rather funny, in a morbid sense--because there is no way a human can defy God's will indefinitely (whether they 'believe in Him' or not) and not even the most purposefully wicked and cruel person will escape the refining in the furnace of affliction that takes care of all that ugliness, self-orientation, and pride!

but i suppose according to the bible it does not. perhaps it's something we all have to eventually adjust to, or accept, and face, if infact it is all bound and true. but then again even when you said this:

I am certain that it is--having had certain experiences that literally transformed me--almost overnight! The positive thing I can offer is that it isn't at all hard to accept or face--because God is so much bigger than the world chooses to construct Him--and even when He chastens, He is 100% positive loving energy that will overwhelm and soften even the hardest heart.

one could argue that it doesn't make sense why an infinite being would need anything when it is infact everything in the first place. but i suppose the answer to that, is because it CAN. and i don't think we're in a position to argue or even understand something like that anyways.

You are totally correct about our position lacking the right to inquire as to His ways. But in this case, I think it's okay to ponder. Factor a limitless amount of love into that Infinite Being's character, and motives become clearer--forever is a long time, especially for One who is solitary yet full of love so pure and divine--so that the only thing lacking is a family upon which to pour that love onto--to live 'happily ever after' in the truest sense of perfect!

[edit on 8/22/2005 by queenannie38]

Originally posted by slymattb
The only reason God favor's those that have no proof of him, is because of faith. He wants people to follow him that never accually had proof that he was alive. He wants faith.

No he doesn't. He wants rationality and despises faith.

Originally posted by slymattb
Why would God build three religion on faith promoting faith, when it is suppostely wrong. that does not even make sences.

Of course it makes sense. He's separating the wheat from the chaff. Those who mindlessly believe are the chaff, but they've been tricked into thinking they are the wheat.

Remeber that few will be saved? That much is true, but it isn't the hoards of faithful.

Originally posted by slymattb
God does not despises faith, where is your proof of that.

As you have failed to comply with my prior demands of proof, I feel no obligation to provide such proof to you either.

Originally posted by slymattb
And if you saying those that dont believe are going to be saved, you are wrong.

What I'm saying is that those who believe, will not be saved.

Originally posted by slymattb
And yet you have no proof of what you think God wants.

Why should I have to present proof? You answer such demands for proof with "you have to have faith" type answers, so I'll just answer your demands for proof with "you have to not have faith".

Originally posted by slymattb
Besides there is logic in believeing God, and a life after death.

No there isn't.

Originally posted by slymattb
Yes you did, a couple of times, by saying what God wants, is to admitte he alive.

No it isn't. I could simply be analyzing the behavior of a fictional character. That's the way god wants it, if he's real.

Originally posted by slymattb
And the only things matters is not that you disbelieve in God. If God is alive, he does not want you to disbelieve in him. But to believe in him by faith. you will never find proof that he is alive.

The fact that you will never find proof is the proof that he wants you to disbelieve.

Originally posted by queenannie38
And it's rather funny, in a morbid sense--because there is no way a human can defy God's will indefinitely (whether they 'believe in Him' or not)

If it is possible to for a human to defy god's will for a period of time, what prevents that period from expanding unbounded?

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by queenannie38
And it's rather funny, in a morbid sense--because there is no way a human can defy God's will indefinitely (whether they 'believe in Him' or not)

If it is possible to for a human to defy god's will for a period of time, what prevents that period from expanding unbounded?

The will of the Deity who created that human--and allowed him to defy and even deny by remaining hidden from him for that period of time.

But when whatever time determined is done--and God makes himself known to that human--there will be no more denying or defiance--because like I said the other day: When God is In-Your-Face, there are no more doubts or questions, and an experience that transforms the deepest hidden parts of any man's heart. In the twinkling of an eye, even.

It happened to Paul, it has happened to me, and it will happen to everyone eventually. And no one will be complaining when it's done.

Just remember where you heard it first --in case I'm not around at the time to say 'I told you so.'

JK
I never say things like that.

I think you'll like it because of all the logic and reason that will be made manifest to everyone.

And then you can say 'I told you so!' LOL

Originally posted by queenannie38
The will of the Deity who created that human--and allowed him to defy and even deny by remaining hidden from him for that period of time.

But when whatever time determined is done--and God makes himself known to that human--there will be no more denying or defiance--because like I said the other day: When God is In-Your-Face, there are no more doubts or questions,

Well, you're assuming the deity will not permit it, but there's no fundamental reason it could not be permitted by said deity.

think of it like this:

the teacher (God) tells you to do an optional asignment (in our case, the asignment will represent acting good and following the 10 commandments and all that)...

the teacher says, if you do it, you will get points (by going to heaven, in our case)...

if we don't do it, we do not get points (in our case, by going to hell)...

so, we are forced to do it...

in other words, God tells us to act good (and this is optional) and if we act good, we go to heaven, and if we don't, we go to hell...

even though its optional, we must do it to go to heaven...

Well I guess there are consequences that come with the decisions we make in life. Really it’s a good lesson even if you don’t believe in the Good Book.

Originally posted by spamandham
Well, you're assuming the deity will not permit it, but there's no fundamental reason it could not be permitted by said deity.

There is.

Unity.

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by spamandham
Well, you're assuming the deity will not permit it, but there's no fundamental reason it could not be permitted by said deity.

There is.

Unity.

That doesn't make sense. You've already conceded that god allows separation for a period, and have given no explanation why he could not choose to allow that separation indefinitely. All you are doing is claiming special knowledge of the mind of your god. That seems a bit arrogant don't you think?

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by queenannie38
And it's rather funny, in a morbid sense--because there is no way a human can defy God's will indefinitely (whether they 'believe in Him' or not)

If it is possible to for a human to defy god's will for a period of time, what prevents that period from expanding unbounded?

"If it's possible to for a human to defy god's will for a period of time, what prevents that period from expanding unbounded?"

it's rather funny, in a morbid sense--because there is no way a human can defy God's will indefinitely (whether they 'believe in Him' or not)

"If it's possible to for a human to defy god's will for a period of time, what prevents that period from expanding unbounded?"

I think the answer is (Whether you believe or not):

GOD's Will.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by spamandham
Well, you're assuming the deity will not permit it, but there's no fundamental reason it could not be permitted by said deity.

There is.

Unity.

That doesn't make sense. You've already conceded that god allows separation for a period, and have given no explanation why he could not choose to allow that separation indefinitely. All you are doing is claiming special knowledge of the mind of your god. That seems a bit arrogant don't you think?

"Well, you're assuming the deity will not permit it, but there's no fundamental reason it could not be permitted by said deity."

And that is different from you assuming a deity will permit it by interpreting the intentions of a deity you don't believe in?

How do you judge a deity when you admittingly are devoid of the capability of empathy for a deity you don't believe in?

How can you view reality through the eyes of the ultimate observer, if you are inept to accept an ultimate observer?

Any arguement on your part, sort of seems mute, sorry to say.

I guess what I'm saying is:

If in your mind there is no ultimate obsever, then you can not percieve the will of one said ultimate observer.

[edit on 08/12/71 by Esoteric Teacher]

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
And that is different from you assuming a deity will permit it by interpreting the intentions of a deity you don't believe in?

I don't recall claiming a deity would permit eternal separation. I merely challenged the assertion that he would not. Seeing as there is no way of even knowing if a deity exists, it seems kind of pointless to try to comprehend the nature of any such deity.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Any arguement on your part, sort of seems mute, sorry to say.

Is it really your contention that only those who have drawn a conclusion that parallels your own are capable of contributing to a discussion? How do you expect to ever refine your knowledge if you simply dismiss those who do not reaffirm your preconceptions? :bnghd:

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
If in your mind there is no ultimate obsever, then you can not percieve the will of one said ultimate observer.

I would clarify that to include that you can not perceive the will of a deity either. If you deny this, then please explain how it is you are able to make such a perception.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by queenannie38
And it's rather funny, in a morbid sense--because there is no way a human can defy God's will indefinitely (whether they 'believe in Him' or not)

If it is possible to for a human to defy god's will for a period of time, what prevents that period from expanding unbounded?

Spam,
Trying to get you to answer your own question.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
And that is different from you assuming a deity will permit it by interpreting the intentions of a deity you don't believe in?

I don't recall claiming a deity would permit eternal separation. I merely challenged the assertion that he would not. Seeing as there is no way of even knowing if a deity exists, it seems kind of pointless to try to comprehend the nature of any such deity.

There is a way of knowing.
It only "SEEMS" pointless if you believe there is no way of knowing a deity exists.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Any arguement on your part, sort of seems mute, sorry to say.

Is it really your contention that only those who have drawn a conclusion that parallels your own are capable of contributing to a discussion? How do you expect to ever refine your knowledge if you simply dismiss those who do not reaffirm your preconceptions? :bnghd:

It is my contention that those who choose to believe a deity does not exist are incapable of the empathy necessary to view creation throught the eyes of said deity. Apathy is all one can have for something that does not exist. Why care either way, if indeed whatever it is really isn't within your own perceptions?

So, my answer is yes. It is my contention that any individual who can not believe in any higher being can not contribute to any conversation that pertains to the will or intentions of someone/something that they do not believe has a will or intentions in the first place.

If you do not believe in any deity, then how can you even begin to state an opinion concerning a deity's intentions or will?

I think it is a prerequisite to believe in points B & C while departing point A for point D. And, how can anyone explain point D to me when they do not acknowledge they believe in points A, B, & C?

You are going to lead me from point A to point B to point C to point D, without believing that points A,B,C, and D even exist?

Thanks for the roadmap.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
If in your mind there is no ultimate obsever, then you can not percieve the will of one said ultimate observer.

I would clarify that to include that you can not perceive the will of a deity either. If you deny this, then please explain how it is you are able to make such a perception.

Took a walk with a deity the other day.
This is what I learned:

Truth is that Truth is all that existed in the begining.
Truth is that Truth did not want to be alone.

Truth pondered for a while and thought of what it could create that would best keep it company and also keep it in existance, and also be able to destroy all the most powerful armies of existance.

Truth with a thought created love.
Because, truth is that TRUTH needs to Love TRUTH in order to continue to exists.

Anything that exists on the conscious level and does not love itself, is ceasing to exist, consciously.

But, TRUTH was ignorant of what Love needed to exist.

TRUTH did not comprehend FEAR, nor HATE.

TRUTH fears TRUTH?
TRUTH hates TRUTH?

no,

TRUTH Loves TRUTH.

but, TRUTH was not aware LOVE needed its polar opposite to exist.

FEAR

How can you hate something without first being afraid of the potential that that which you hate has the ability and power to take something/someone you love away from you?

Fear is the opposite of love.

Hate is the opposite of love.

You can only hate someone who has or is capable of taking that which you love away from you.

Therefore when you fear or hate your deity, you are in effect exhibiting the opposite of love towards that deity.

TRUTH LOVES TRUTH

Truthing and Loving
vs.
Fearing and Hating

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
If in your mind there is no ultimate obsever, then you can not percieve the will of one said ultimate observer.

I would clarify that to include that you can not perceive the will of a deity either. If you deny this, then please explain how it is you are able to make such a perception.

How can I make such a perception?
Because in my world there is a GOD.

Why can't you percieve such a perception can be made?
Because, in your world there has never been a GOD.
Therefore the standards upon which you observe everything are the standards of humanity, and those are the highest standards you can percieve. There is nothing higher in your reality, or you would have known the answer to the question you asked me, before you asked me it.

Truthing loving Truthing. A perfect state of mind.

Fear and hate have been battling fear and hate for a long time.

Standards of humanity have lead us to believe this perception is a great path to continue down:
Over 7,000 years (written/recorded history) we still don't know seven consecutive days without war, killing, and destruction.

[edit on 08/12/71 by Esoteric Teacher]

[Quote]If you do not believe in any deity, then how can you even begin to state an opinion concerning a deity's intentions or will?



thank you, cant state what God wants, if you dont believe in him.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

Originally posted by spamandham
[If it is possible to for a human to defy god's will for a period of time, what prevents that period from expanding unbounded?

Spam,
Trying to get you to answer your own question.

Here's the answer then: "nothing".

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
It is my contention that those who choose to believe a deity does not exist are incapable of the empathy necessary to view creation throught the eyes of said deity.

I have not chosen to believe or to disbelieve. Belief is not a choice, it's a state of mind compelled by the evidence.

You have not chosen to believe in god, you have been compelled to believe in god by what you consider credible evidence. In the same way, I am compelled to disbelive for lack of any evidence I consider credible.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Why care either way, if indeed whatever it is really isn't within your own perceptions?

Although the deity is not within my perception, people that believe in deities are, and they are causing all kinds of trouble due to those delusions. I am fairly convinced the war in Iraq is rooted in religious hysteria. 9/11 was rooted in this hysteria, and the US response is driven in large part by the neocon end-times hysteria. I will do my part to free future generations from this socially acceptable form of insanity.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
So, my answer is yes. It is my contention that any individual who can not believe in any higher being can not contribute to any conversation that pertains to the will or intentions of someone/something that they do not believe has a will or intentions in the first place.

Then discussion with you is a waste of my time. I'm adding you to my ignore list.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
So, my answer is yes. It is my contention that any individual who can not believe in any higher being can not contribute to any conversation that pertains to the will or intentions of someone/something that they do not believe has a will or intentions in the first place.

Then discussion with you is a waste of my time. I'm adding you to my ignore list.

It is only your opinion that I'm worthy of being ignored.

Cosider this:

god only gave us conditioned free will?

If the name of the thread was:

why the dog feched the bone
Would you tell someone who believed in dogs that you knew what the dog was thinking while holding to your contention that dogs don't exist because you don't think there is sufficient evidence to support the existance of dogs?

Perhaps you should be ignoring the thread, not the contributors to the post.

god only gave us conditioned free will?

It is your contention there is no God?
But, you reserve the right to debate God's intentions?

I doubt being ignored by an individual who only believes in free will, but not god only gave us conditioned is hurting me, as much as it denying yourself the truth of your state of mind:

For you to explain to me what the grass is like on the other side of the fence, when you don't even believe there is grass or believe there in the other side of the fence, is ...... delusional, because you are creating an objective perspective unobjectively, and with judgement.

Don't worry, though. I won't ignore you.

I understand that you:
Are telling me how my side of the scale looks, from your side, and are refusing to acknowledge the entire scale even exists.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

Originally posted by spamandham
[If it is possible to for a human to defy god's will for a period of time, what prevents that period from expanding unbounded?

Spam,
Trying to get you to answer your own question.

Here's the answer then: "nothing".

And that is the answer to your question?

If you don't believe in god, then the answer to the question can not be nothing, because you have still acknowledged that there is a will of god, all be it ficticious. In which case it is the human himself/herself that prevents that period from expanding unbound, or just defying said will for a period of time.

If you do believe in God, then it is both God and mankind who decide whether the period of time in question is expanded unbound, or not. Or, just God's will that decides for mankind.

The only way "nothing" can be the answer is if you don't know what you believe in ......

In which case you'll be ignoring individuals until the day you do know what you believe in because:

Then you'll have the intellect and skill, and experience, and wisdom to do so, instead of running away.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
It is my contention that those who choose to believe a deity does not exist are incapable of the empathy necessary to view creation throught the eyes of said deity.

I have not chosen to believe or to disbelieve. Belief is not a choice, it's a state of mind compelled by the evidence.

So, if the choice is not yours to make, who has the responsibility for making these choices for you?

Evidence is merely a by-product of your state of mind. You choose to experience the evidence, or you choose not to experience the evidence.

You have not chosen to believe in god, you have been compelled to believe in god by what you consider credible evidence. In the same way, I am compelled to disbelive for lack of any evidence I consider credible.

I wonder if you'll be ignoring the other 6,000,000,000 people on this planet who believe there is a God?

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Why care either way, if indeed whatever it is really isn't within your own perceptions?

Although the deity is not within my perception, people that believe in deities are, and they are causing all kinds of trouble due to those delusions. I am fairly convinced the war in Iraq is rooted in religious hysteria. 9/11 was rooted in this hysteria, and the US response is driven in large part by the neocon end-times hysteria. I will do my part to free future generations from this socially acceptable form of insanity.

"I will do my part to free future generations from this socially acceptable form of insanity."

Try ignoring all future generations, that will help free them. Perhaps that is God's will as well, to ignore us in order to free us?

I'm glad the future of mankind rests in the hands of people who have the capacity to judge the sheep, but not acknowledge or believe in the parents of the sheep, or the shepard.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
So, my answer is yes. It is my contention that any individual who can not believe in any higher being can not contribute to any conversation that pertains to the will or intentions of someone/something that they do not believe has a will or intentions in the first place.

Then discussion with you is a waste of my time. I'm adding you to my ignore list.

It has been a great pleasure wasting your time. Have a nice day. Sorry that you learned nothing. If your state of mind is what is going to free future generations ........

[edit on 08/12/71 by Esoteric Teacher]