The Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Answers to all your questions

Jake keeps trying to say to me, that raptue means caught up together, in latin it means rapture.
But I dont believe in greek it said rapture or even the meaning of rapture. rapture means a second comeing of christ, and that we all will be change, and wont die.

The only comeing of christ I believe is in the end of revelations, and if there was a second comeing of christ, it would be at the end of revelations. Right after Jesus die, Jesus came back to life and showed him self to his disciples. So in a way there is three coming of christ. 1 when Jesu was born,2 after his resurection, 3 at the end of revelations. But in any case there will be only more time christ will come to earth, and thats to judge the world and to live in the New jerusalem, to do God's work and will.

Historical Documents from the Fathers of the Church (Church Leaders)
DO NOT reflect anything about Christ having a second and a third
coming back. It was not a belief, not a tradition, and not a teaching.

St. Justin Martyr (c100-165)
'In the words of the OT prphecy ... two advents of Christ have been
announced; the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious,
dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from
heaven with glory, and the man of apostasy (anti-christ) who speaks
strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds
on the earth against us the Christians.' hmmmm NO rapture here.
NO second AND third coming back.

St. Iranaeus (c 125-203)
(speaking of revelation) 'In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocolypse,
indicated to the Lord's disciples what will happen in the last times.
(quyotes passage from Daniel and Jesus' Olivet discourse) ... at that time
the 'ten kings' described by both Daniel and St. John (Daniel 7:24 and
Revelation 17:12) shall give their kingdom to the beast (antichrist) and put
the Church to flight. But the believers will at last meet their Lord at the
resurrectin of the just, which takes place after the coming of AntiChrist
and the destruction of all nations under his rule'. hmmm NO rapture here.
NO second AND third coming back.

St. Hippolytus (died C 235)
(Commentary on Daniel 12:1) - 'For at that time there shall be great
trouble, such as has not been from the foundation of the world, when
some in one way, and others in another, shall be sent through every city
and country to destroy the faithful; and the saints (Christians) shall travel
from the west to the east, and shall be driven in persecution from the east
to the south, while others shall conceal themselves in the mountains and
caves; and the abomination shall war against them everywhere ... for
then they shall all be driven out from every place, and dragged from their
own homes and hauled into prison, and punished with all manner of
punishment, and cast out from the whole world.' hmmm No rapture there.

No second and third coming back.

Christians still on the planet. Christians being persecuted.
THAT is what the church believed prior to the year 300.
THAT is still what 2 billion Christians (sans 100K) who are
alive on this planet believe to this day.


[edit on 8/28/2005 by FlyersFan]

Christ’s words – ‘Great distress shall be upon the earth and wrath upon
this people; they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led captive
among all nations; and Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles,
until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled” (Luke 21:23-24) and then He
says ‘For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from
the beginning of the world until now, no human being would be saved;
for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened (Matthew 24:22).

Christ Himself says that there will be a time of trial for Christians just
before his second coming. He doesn’t say that anyone will be snatched
out of tribulation but the one ‘who endures to the end will be saved”
(Matthew 24:13; see also 10:22) The days of trial are not a time of
escape, but rather a time of sifting, proving, and purging the faithful.

Then Christ talks about his Second Coming in spectacular terms – ‘For as
the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be
the coming of the Son of Man’ (Matthew 24:27). The event will definitely
NOT be secret. It will be seen and felt by all. No secret rapture here!

Then Christ says about his arrival – ‘Then will appear the sign of the Son of
Man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they
will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and
great glory; and He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and
they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to
another. (Matthew 24:30-31) Trumpets and lightening are NOT a secret
rapture.

All through scripture we find Christ ‘coming on the clouds of heaven’ and
that he descends with the clouds for judgement with glory and power and
that there are heavenly trumpets with lightening and thunder. No secret
rapture.

Biblical history tells us that clouds were associated with the glory of God’s
presence. Not only in the NT but in the OT as well – Exodus 13:21,
Exodus 24:12-18, Exodus 40:34, 1 Kings 8:10-11, Ezekiel 10:3-4

Christ’s primary reason for His return is the last judgement of the human
race.

‘He is the one ordained by God to be judge of the living and the dead’
(Acts 10:42) For the judgement of the dead to take place, the dead
must first be raised.

‘Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have
fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the
resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all
be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at
His coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when He
delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and
every authority and power. (1 Cor 15:20-24) – so first is Christ’s coming,
then the resurrection of the dead, and then the judgement (triumph over
evil).

Those who die in friendship with God will accompany Him when He returns
for His second coming – 1 Thessalonians 3:13 – this is not rapture, this is
part of judgement As is this –

For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through
Jesus, God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep … we who are
alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those
who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descendfrom heaven with
a cry of command, with the archangels call, and with the sound of the
trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are
alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to
meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord
(1 Thessalonians 4:14-17).

No secret rapture here … just the raising of the dead and judgement.

Also - it was the custom of the time to 'go out' to meet and escort a
dignitary to his destination. This was honoring that dignitary. Those
who are 'caught up' to the clouds (God's Glory) to escort Christ are not
people who have gotten out of suffering through tribulation. They are
those who have suffered and 'washed their robes' ... and are following
the custom of the time to go greet and honor the dignitary. Families
even did this with fathers. It's all through scripture.

Martyrs of the Tribulation (no rapture for the faithful before Christ comes)

‘On that day, each faithful Chrsitian will become a ‘partaker in the glory
that is to be revealed’ (1 Peter 5:1). Those who ‘suffer with Him (for His
sake) through the terrors of the last days will at that time ‘also be glorified
with Him’ (Romans 8:17)

‘The souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the
witness they had borne … each given a white robe and told to rest a little
longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should
be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been (Rev 6:9-
11) … ‘Whence have they come? The elder declared ‘These are they who
have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and
made them white in the blood of the lamb” Rev 7:13-14 God didn’t rescue
faithful from the horrors of persecution in the end times.

Jesus Prayed – ‘I do not ask that you take them out of the world but that
you keep them from the evil one’ – John 17:15


[edit on 8/28/2005 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by slymattb
And yet there is no direct saying of the rapture, we ill be change in a moment, does not mean rapture. Dont you think Jesus maight have said soemthing about it.

Sly...
There is in fact a direct saying of the word, rapture. LOL

The word is there. Case closed. So now Im kinda not sure what you want.

Rapture - Harpazo - caught up - ... The word itself is there. Want to call it something else? Go ahead. But every time you look in the bible in the vatican...it will be there.
Call it catching away... call it harpazo....
I dont care.
A rose by any other name, is still a rose.

And remember...at the second coming of Christ...we wont be going anywhere. We will be right here for 1000 more years

Peace out

[edit on 28-8-2005 by jake1997]

im not sure if anyone added this verse. I just want to go ahead and add it (again).

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?