The Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Answers to all your questions

We have a few rapture threads, and we have a few threads where rapture topic comes up.
There are alot of misconceptions and some outright denial of the obvious.
This is not to help those in denial. By that I mean, the ones who refuse to read or see. Nothing can be done there.

This thread is intended for those genuinely interested in learning.

After you view the scripture, we can then discuss it if you like.

If you want to shout out that you dont believe it...then do it somewhere else. There are half a dozen threads with folks doing that.

Now I can sit and do the work all over again, or go through this site and collect all the informative posts, but either way..the work is already done and waiting..and this is the simplist form

The Rapture - What is it

The rapture and the jewish wedding

Why pre trib?

Pre Trib part 2

The author has done some outstanding work and I encourage you to review and CHECK all the referrences and scripture

I have a question. How long should you wait before it's reasonable to conclude it's never going to happen? 1,000,000,000 years? 1,000,000 years? 2,000 years? 40 years? If the last particle in the universe finally decays to pure energy, would it then be fair to conclude it won't happen?

Originally posted by spamandham
I have a question. How long should you wait before it's reasonable to conclude it's never going to happen? 1,000,000,000 years? 1,000,000 years? 2,000 years? 40 years? If the last particle in the universe finally decays to pure energy, would it then be fair to conclude it won't happen?

If you want to shout out that you dont believe it...then do it somewhere else. There are half a dozen threads with folks doing that.

Actually according to Jesus, End Times should have already occoured

"Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come in power." Mark 9:1

Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. Mark 13:30-31

So based on this Jesus was stating that end times would occur within thier lifetimes centuries ago







[edit on 7/29/05 by FredT]

Originally posted by jake1997

Originally posted by spamandham
I have a question. How long should you wait before it's reasonable to conclude it's never going to happen? 1,000,000,000 years? 1,000,000 years? 2,000 years? 40 years? If the last particle in the universe finally decays to pure energy, would it then be fair to conclude it won't happen?

If you want to shout out that you dont believe it...then do it somewhere else. There are half a dozen threads with folks doing that.

I'm not shouting out "I don't believe it", I'm asking a legitimate question. Is there any limit whatsoever to how long is reasonable to wait, and what does the Bible indicate as a timeframe.

The Bible is clear that it was imminent 2000 years ago. What makes you think the Catholic church's position, that it already happened and was spiritual not physical, is false?

I DONT BELIEVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So anyhow, remember....

All of what you said and linked to is based on interpretations of loosly fitted literary context, which are based in opinion and personal bias.

When you show me that the bible says specifically that people will be taken into heaven before their death...SPECIFICALLY. Then I may consider giving credence to this.

You are looking for this

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


and here is another

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Vulgate (latin bible used from 400 AD until the reformation) word for caught up is raeptius (aka rapture in english). It is in the bible and there is the verse.
Makes me wonder why we use the latin word today. Why not the 'catching away'? Perhaps the rapture talk started long ago.

Finally, we have the example of Enoch.
Enoch was taken up without dying. Enoch was the 7th generation from Adam.
I have a thread in this forum where I detail the parallel Genesis with Revelation concerning this.

Remember, for everything in the NT there is an OT example to compare with.

I have a question:
How do you see the Rapture here??!

Originally posted by jake1997


1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

When I read that, I see the Judgement Day. The LAST trumpet, DEAD rise from graves, changed. 15:50 say that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The kingdom is obviously a spiritual place, so it is our soul that inherits it.
These verses are simple: world ends, bodies dead, spirits alive and go to God.

I do not understand where the Rapture here is, the taking of some people BEFORE the end, when it clearly states otherwise.

Originally posted by jake1997

The Vulgate (latin bible used from 400 AD until the reformation) word for caught up is raeptius (aka rapture in english). It is in the bible and there is the verse.

Jake, Jake, Jake! Surely you realize that the NT was not written in Latin, originally?

Perhaps this was a clever ruse!
No doubt you have fallen for it.

Get a greek lexicon, or an interlinear NT. Use your head, Jake! The word for 'caught up' in the Greek is one associated with concepts such as 'choose', 'take for oneself', 'expiate,' and 'lift' or 'raise.' It's about the 'many are called but few are chosen' principle, not 'rapture.' The rapture is fairy tale of men and the religious agency of deception.

Makes me wonder why we use the latin word today.

Because you have fallen prey to the 'strong delusion' and have believed a lie instead of God.

Latin was the language of the 'people of the prince to come!' Do you see a connection here?

So there was no latin translation? Only English and Greek?
The vulgate does not and did not exist. There is no latin word for harpazo?

Thanks for your version of history. I will opt for the real one.

Your really making it difficult to take you seriously

Paperclip
I was answering a question from a pervious post. Refer to that for context. A specific question was asked. I found the most direct verse that answered it.
Slight should now be a believer.

Originally posted by jake1997
So there was no latin translation? Only English and Greek?
The vulgate does not and did not exist. There is no latin word for harpazo?

Thanks for your version of history. I will opt for the real one.

Your really making it difficult to take you seriously

Of course there's a latin translation, but it is not the original language of the New Testament. The oldest manuscripts are Greek. If you wish to translate it to English, doesn't it make sense to translate directly from the Greek rather than translating to English from Latin?

Jake, go back to church and leave the thinking to others.

Originally posted by jake1997
So there was no latin translation? Only English and Greek?
The vulgate does not and did not exist. There is no latin word for harpazo?

Thanks for your version of history. I will opt for the real one.

Your really making it difficult to take you seriously

I could care less if you take me seriously or not. If you don't, it's not because the things I say are outrageous--it's because you only see right in front of you and nothing else.

Sure there was a latin bible. That's not what I said.
OT written in Hebrew, NT written in Greek.
Latin a dead language.
You obviously speak English.

Why the unnecessary translation into a dead language?

The period of time the vulgate was used was called the 'dark ages' because the church suppressed literacy to the point of it being called the dark ages. Why? Because they couldn't afford to have the people find out their falsely constructed matrix without biblical support. And if that fails, well, let's just translate the bible into a dead language no one knows.

At least two men, Hus and Tynedale, were executed by the church for daring to make the bible available to the common sinner. In 1517 7 people were burned at the stake for teaching their children the LORD's prayer in English rather than Latin!! When Thomas Linacre learned Greek and compared it to the Vulgate, he said. "Either this (the original Greek) is not the Gospel… or we are not Christians." At that time it was still a capital crime to own a bible in any language other than the corrupted Latin Vulgate.

The church who translated this bible had people burned at the stake

for their desire to read the words of the bible for themselves!!

The church killed those who sought God with fervent hearts.

Do you really trust such a work to lead you to the truth of God?

Jake,

I never thought I'd do this. For I don't make it my duty to correct a fellow christian in his faith. But after going through those webpages I feel I cannot stand back and watch whilst christians misinterpret the bible at such a grand scale.

Taken from Pre-Trib part I

What Bible passages support the Pre-Trib Rapture?
There are three primary verses that teach about the "Rapture"

1 Thess 4:13-18

1 Cor 15:42-56

John 14:1-3

I read and re-read them and yet there's nothing in those verses that talk about pre-trib. However, there are similar points which stand out in all three of those references.
Top to bottom...

1 Thess 4:13-18
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first... Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.

Whats obvious here ?
1- The LORD shall descend with a shout and a trump.
2- The dead will rise first
3- Then and ONLY THEN are the living caught up.

1 Cor 15 also known as the resurrection chapter. Not rapture chapter. RESURRECTION.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

What's obvious here ?
1- There is to be a transfiguration of some sort. Corruptible shall put on incorruption and the mortal shall have put on immortality.
2- In a twinkling of an eye the dead shall be raised incorruptible and then the living shall be changed. *Note the same order as in 1 Thess.
3- There are trumpets also like in 1 Thess.

John 14
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The obvious ?
Jesus is going to his Father. And like in 1 Thess he will come again.


Conclusion.
- No talk about pre-trib anywhere.
- The second coming of the Lord is CRYSTAL clear.
- The dead shall precede the living.

When is the Second coming of Jesus ?

Mattew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What's obvious ? Much like in 1 Thessalonians.
- The Lord shall appear with a GREAT sound of a trumpet.
- He shall gather his elect (rapture them?)
- And in case you didn't notice. It's immediately after the tribulation.

I could go on and on and on. But, well like they say, I can only show you the door.

Originally posted by jake1997
This thread is intended for those genuinely interested in learning.

After you view the scripture, we can then discuss it if you like.

If you want to shout out that you dont believe it...then do it somewhere else. There are half a dozen threads with folks doing that.

The author has done some outstanding work and I encourage you to review and CHECK all the referrences and scripture

Alas, people do want to learn, but perhaps you think there are only two or three ways to view the rapture. Most people have come to believe the rapture absolutely is about being taken up to God and they try to determine if it happens before, during, or after the tribulation.

Maybe - just maybe - we have been viewing this wrong all along. Far too often, people research the bible and take things literally - because it is easy to do so. Nothing, says the tribulation period is 7 literal years other than edited versions of the Bible. Usually, the Bible refers to 7 as speaking of the creation and uses time loosely between what we perceive and what God perceives as "time". God thinks a day is a thousand years and to us it is just a short time. It is obvious the Bible uses a lot of symbolic wording and isn't absolute in what the text means. Every quote about the circumstances and times of the end can be perceived in a lot of ways, so may I introduce this idea?

Perhaps, when the bible talks of the rapture it is just talking of our transformation of when we die out of our physical bodies and go on to a spiritual one. Is this plausible? The bible never says that we all will be called into a rapture at the exact same time, but only says to the point that all will hear his (Jesus/God) voice. It talks about people being chosen and some not at any given time, not at a pivotal point that would be universal to everyone alive at a certain moment in time.

Seriously, if you judge the wording of what the bible says about rapture, it makes more sense to agree that it is talking about the dying process and going on to an afterlife and being caught up with Jesus than it does about Jesus coming down and kicking arse at some unkown point in time.

Then this is about symantics with you.

I will stop calling it rapture and start calling it "Catching away" or harpazo.

joyous
I feel you made your conclusion too soon. Could you also do what you did with the rest of the verses on that page please.
I can see what you see in the first 3....but there are many

Originally posted by ben91069

Alas, people do want to learn,

Any just as many, it seems, desire to teach something they do not understand, confusing attachment to opinion the same as delegated authority.

Maybe - just maybe - we have been viewing this wrong all along. Far too often, people research the bible and take things literally - because it is easy to do so. Nothing, says the tribulation period is 7 literal years other than edited versions of the Bible. Usually, the Bible refers to 7 as speaking of the creation and uses time loosely between what we perceive and what God perceives as "time". God thinks a day is a thousand years and to us it is just a short time. It is obvious the Bible uses a lot of symbolic wording and isn't absolute in what the text means.

Yes! Thank you!
Some things to think about are:
#1 God doesn't 'count' or use numbers for any other quantitive purpose. If we are all sinners until we are in His Son, where we are all equally important members of one body--then where would God have need to count census or 'good deeds?' He is the ultimate Sovreign of all--why tally when it's all yours? Measuring time and material goods, counting people, all that--that is of man's invention. The numbers found in scripture are always representations of something, not actual statistics--especially time--in most cases. God got mad at King David for taking a census, and Christ himself told us that we cannot anticipate according to a specific time or date, but rather what we should be watching for. He didn't say it to keep us on the edge of our seat, but rather to focus our attention appropriately.
Any prophetic interpretation which is based on numerical interpretation is flawed from the start.
#2 The 'tribulation' is the time of Jacob's trouble, which goes on concurrently with the time the 'gentiles are trampling the temple.' IOW, Israel is scattered and in judgment/trial/tribulation, and as such is not able to be the kings and priests to the gentiles yet (gentiles is properly defined as those who don't worship the living God. NOT 'non-jew'. I am not a jew neither am I gentile, by any means.)
But the time of the gentiles is figuratively half a week 'time, times and half a time.' Look at it this way: not half of 7 literal days/years whatever, but half of the whole time..
We've got 2000 years of OT times from the point of Abraham being given a promised vow on Mt Moriah when he was willing to sacrifice Isaac (for that is the start of the salvation covenant which God will not break as it is a voluntary oath made on His own name). And it's been roughly 2000 years on the other side of the perfect sacrifice given by God to fulfill the conditions of the oath given to Abraham--according to the laws given by God Himself to Moses!
Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, the 'times of the trampling of the gentiles' in the temple has been going on ever since Roman paganism stole the name of Christ in order to promote their idolatry in a new fashion. Who would do such a thing? Present a lie as truth--a lie that is basically a 'life or death' proposition? Only Satan himself would have a plan like this so well executed. And of course God allowed it for the time determined--in order for us to see if we followed truth or not. Therefore none of us can complain about our respective rewards.
Now, the thing Paul talks about in Thessalonians, about 'man of sin' being revealed is just that. Not the beginning of some certain person's existence, but rather the revelation of where sin actually makes its abode and who those who follow sin would rather be. That which has been restraining is the Holy Spirit. It has been allowing this delusion to be believed by every single soul in the world, until time to lift the veil. There have been sporadic peeks all through history, but by most those are denied and the lies continued to be upheld. I never felt I had anything more to gain by religion than I did by just following Christ, but never did I imagine--even remotely--that the wickedness of high places was at work behind the pulpit like a puppet master! I am still in awe of the power of
God to hide what He wills from us, until He wants us to see the truth. Situations aren't changed, but only the scales removed from the eyes! Now I'm thinking 'Why didn't I see?' Well, because God didn't will it.

And that's the crucial understanding that might show the truth about it. Many will refuse to see even after He lifts the scales--because they desire to be right more than being right with God. That's a mistake. God doens't care if we were fooled! He let us ALL be fooled! But when the fun is over, and the truth is revealed, the only way to show allegiance to your LORD and Savior is to not remain in the ranks of those who would rather believe a lie than the truth. Don't feel bad because you didn't see! Feel good because you can see now! It's God that does these things, not us. Let go of false pride and responsibility which is not yours.

Anyway I digress. The thing that Paul says must first happen before the consummation of the age is that there is a falling away from the church of man due to the revelation of it's inner workings--which were in the works when he wrote his epistles! He says so himself. It's not the actuality that occurs, it is the revelation of this actuality!

And that thing that Paul spoke of is happening these present days. All the hidden things of centuries and centuries are coming to light.

The 'fig tree' is putting forth tender shoots. Not in the man-made nation of 'Israel' but in the fact that the true Israel (those who prevail with God) are being gathered (which means they're being awakened to the call of Messiah) The tribulation is over! The darkness of isolation and persecution that Jacob (Israel) endured since the destruction of the temple is over! All who have called on the name of God in that time were blessed and those who stuck to idols were cursed--read Deuteronomy. Don't wait for the whole group known as Jews to suddenly see Christ is Messiah--many Jews believe, most don't. Nothing is going to suddenly change. Don't wait for a false Messiah. We've had plenty of those. The third temple is not going to be built by men's hands, and the ark of the covenant is at God's throne, and in our hearts.
The 'mark of the beast' is the stubborn adherence to religious laws which go against God's truth. Cain got the first mark. Christ overcame the curse Cain incurred and so those who follow Him receive the mark of the Father.
Much of what's in Revelation has already occured! But in order for us to not realize this, due to Martin Luther saying the Pope was the antichrist (which was in part very true, but misguided in many ways), the council of Trent and it's members started some very damaging falsehoods as diversionary tactics of the truth--and these very things have given rise to this false teaching of 7 years of tribulation, which were extended into rapture ideas by John Darby and some others.




Perhaps, when the bible talks of the rapture it is just talking of our transformation of when we die out of our physical bodies and go on to a spiritual one. Is this plausible? No doubt! I think, though, it might possibly be also the 'first resurrection' that is the 'catching away'--this 'first resurrection' is not physical but is the quickening our souls by God's spirit--the life of the spirit comes before the death of the body and that is how we will be able to 'pass from death to life'--IOW, not taste death. The second death is the purging of one's memory and also pain, hurt, and things that cause us not to love and seek truth, it is the cleansing of the spirit. Some will have to die in the flesh first, but some have died to the flesh while still living. And when this truly happens, and God manifests and quickens the soul. rapture is truly the experience!

Adam and Eve died twice, first in spirit then in body. We must be resurrected in Spirit so that the second death (of our body and soul) doesn't hurt us.

Notice that in Revelation there is a first resurrection and a second death. Where are the other two components? That's a big clue!

Seriously, if you judge the wording of what the bible says about rapture, it makes more sense to agree that it is talking about the dying process and going on to an afterlife and being caught up with Jesus than it does about Jesus coming down and kicking arse at some unkown point in time.

Right, the dying of the flesh and the quickening of the Spirit.

Christ brings His elect to life so that they can fight the evils of the world with the sword of His mouth--which is truth. Who overcomes? What is overcome?

When the war is over, then it's over for good! And the battle is heating up now, because Armageddon happens in 'high places' against powers and princes of the enemy.

If there is only one Rapture what happens to all the Christians Left behind and to the people that dies as martyrs and come to Jesus during the Tribulation ?

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
If there is only one Rapture what happens to all the Christians Left behind and to the people that dies as martyrs and come to Jesus during the Tribulation ?

Until you realize that these stories of 'raptures' and the 'antichrist' and all the other apocalyptic pulp fiction that passes these days for 'prophesy' is actually the very thing Peter was warning us against in his second epistle, 1:16. The cunningly devised fables!

Anyone who has refused to deny the truth of Jesus Christ--and was killed for it is a martyr. There have been many souls who have been martyred at the hands of those who call themselves christians. Some men were burned by the church for daring to make God's word accessible to all men.

Anyone who has found God and true salvation through the christian church, despite it's garbled mixture of ignorant dogma and pagan traditions held together by the motivation for suppression of human will in the interest of political control--those are who are in the great white robed throng. Not the elect, but the gentiles saved through the seeds sown by the work of the apostles.

No matter what religion says, apostolic tradition is carried out by the Holy Spirit alone. No human can be trusted not to taint the pureness of the truth as it comes from God. We can't keep something pure which we cannot fully conceive. It's not possible.

Read the 14-17 chapters of John's Gospel. Those words are powerful and can be trusted.

Matthew 24:36-51
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.