The Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Answers to all your questions

The Thing is ...the Pre-Trib rapture theology is wrong because it is merged with another wrong doctrine, the Once Saved Always Saved, Guaranteed Heaven , Guaranteed Rapture... God didnt make all those "guarantees"...man did.

If there is a Rapture, not only there HAS to be one PRE-TRIB fo the FOLLOWERS of JESUS, but also another one during the TRib for the Christians who were left behind and repented, as well as for those who came to Jesus druing thr Big Trib.

There is NO such thing as GUARANTEED HEAVEN for anyone...

Originally posted by jake1997
Then this is about symantics with you.

I will stop calling it rapture and start calling it "Catching away" or harpazo.

Call it whatever you prefer, Jake. It's still a 'cunningly devised fable.'

Originally posted by BaastetNoir


The Thing is ...the Pre-Trib rapture theology is wrong because it is merged with another wrong doctrine, the Once Saved Always Saved, Guaranteed Heaven , Guaranteed Rapture... God didnt make all those "guarantees"...man did.

We are not far apart here.
I do not believe once saved , always saved. Thats crap.
I do not believe you are guaranteed heaven. Thats crap.
BUT..
hehe
To lose your salvation you must reject it as in the parable of the seeds, or the rich man who could have had it but walked away.
No one can take your salvation from you.

If there is a Rapture, not only there HAS to be one PRE-TRIB fo the FOLLOWERS of JESUS, but also another one during the TRib for the Christians who were left behind and repented, as well as for those who came to Jesus druing thr Big Trib.

The rapture is before the trib.
Jesus isnt coming back to earth...rapturing us...and then we all disappear. We are leaving to go where He is.
During the trib, people will be saved. Jesus will come back with all the saints at the end.

There is NO such thing as GUARANTEED HEAVEN for anyone...

With assumptions there is. We can be assured of salvation if we continue in Christs word.

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
(Revelation 7:14)

Which came out of 'great tribulation' not 'the' great tribulation--there is definitely no article in the original Greek.

First time we see the word 'tribulation' in the bible:


And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
(Deuteronomy 4:27-31)

Now, when Christ tells His disciples--who are, don't forget! descendants of these people this is said to in Deuteronomy--that when they see the abomination of desolation (abomination=idolatry every time not desecration but idolatry), etc...He was speaking of the idolatry which would continue in the temple for 40 years after His crucifixion--until it was destroyed! Now, we know the temple was for the purpose, mainly, of a central area for offering the sacrifices required for sin. And that Christ's death on the cross was the sacrifice to end all sacrifices. Therefore there was no need for the temple, and indeed, it was literally devoid of God's spirit as soon as Christ said 'it is finished.' It was once God's house, but since God no longer had need of it, and neither did anyone else, then He left it and it became empty. Desolate means forsaken, empty. Therefore, all sacrifices made in that temple were in vain from that point on, and all worship was no longer to the Living God, since He had ascended to the Throne. Any worship, of any kind, not to God, is idolatry.

So, the 'abomination of desolation' occurred from the point of Christ giving up the ghost until 70 AD when the temple was destroyed. Jerusalem was no longer a safe place, and God no longer protected it. Christ even said,

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
(Matthew 23:38-39)

Prophesies abound about the future desolation. Example:

Be thou instructed, O Jerusalem, lest my soul depart from thee; lest I make thee desolate, a land not inhabited.
(Jeremiah 6:8)

And the remaining Jews in Jerusalem were either killed or scattered. Those that lived were persecuted just about everywhere they went for the next 1900 years, often slaughtered en masse and otherwise treated worse than any other single group of people have even been in the history of the world, excepting, perhaps the American Indians. But this lasted for 1900 years, and the horror of the holocaust in WWII brought it to a head and the nation we call Israel was created. Not that it was God gathering them, but yet the tribulation was drawing to a close.

Only we know that Christ spoke of the tender new shoots of the fig tree. He didn't say a new fig tree (which I think could be understood as a whole nation being born) but new shoots on the same tree. These are the children of Israel that we find spoken of in Isaiah chapter 49, verse 22.

In the NT, tribulation is often spoken of as being something the writers suffered at the time of writing. Paul and John specifically, and John even says , 'I, John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ' at the beginning of Revelation.

And Christ Himself says, just prior to His crucifixion:

Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
(John 16:32-33)

Finally, it would seem that unless one suffers tribulation, one will not enter the kingdom of Heaven:

Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
(Acts 14:22)

And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
(Romans 5:3)

Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
(2 Corinthians 1:4)

2Co 7:4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.

For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
(1 Thessalonians 3:4)

Also, tribulation appears to be both somewhat of an honor, when done for the cause of the kingdom, and also a time when much comfort can be given to others as a positive witness of the LORD's workings.


So, given all these things do we:

a. discount everything but the 'solid proof' of pre-trib rapture, including the words of Jesus and Moses, Paul and Peter?

b. reconsider that maybe it's not 'all about' christians and modern day goings-on on the socio-political forefront?

Because either your theory is wrong or the bible is wrong. The various passages misinterpreted and connected with thinly stretched threads of possible assumptions is not as strong as just plain old outright statements in both the OT and the NT.

The devil plays on your pride to make you think it's 'all about christianity' instead of God's elect and all believers under the new covenant. He also plays on your mortal fears by making you think you'll not have to suffer at all in the name of your Savior. All this done under the guise of the 'strong delusion' which is religion.



[edit on 8/1/2005 by queenannie38]

Jake,

Before I continue this discussion there are things you've gotta answer.

On the rapute day,

Will there be a trumpet ? If so who will hear it ?
Will the Lord himself descend from heaven ?
Will the dead rise before we are transformed in a blink of an eye ?

Originally posted by joyouslyhumored
Jake,

Before I continue this discussion there are things you've gotta answer.

On the rapute day,

Will there be a trumpet ? If so who will hear it ?
Will the Lord himself descend from heaven ?
Will the dead rise before we are transformed in a blink of an eye ?

If there is, you will likely hear it.

Not to return to earth, merely to colloect His bride.

Yes.

Now show me what you have on the rest of the verses. These verses may refer to the end....maybe the rapture. The rest of them need to be addressed because its easy to confuse the two if you are not careful.

Let me start off by saying that most of the verses I've seen, are open to interpretation. That makes them difficult to refute. In my opinion, I can't give you proof by just making another interpretation to prove my point, which is why I stuck to the main ones. I think they're pretty clear. But anyway.

A book I recently read lays out seven key points to support a Pre-Trib view and even had an acronym to make it easy to remember:

P - Place of the church in the book of Revelation.
R - Removal of the restrainer
E - Exemption from the divine wrath
T - Twenty-four elders
R - Rapture of the Church versus the return of Christ
I - Imminence
B - Blessed hope.

P - Place of the church in the book of Revelation.
None of the key New Testament passages that deal with the Tribulation mention the presence of the church.

I have to disagree with that one.
To begin with there's Revelation 7 : 9-17. It talks about the church and it says These are they who have come out of the great tribulation.

There's also the Fifth Seal in chapter 6, where the souls of those who were slain are given white robes and told to wait until the number of their fellow servants and brothers are to be killed as well

Then there's Matthew 24. Talks about Christians getting persecuted, betraying each-other, losing the faith and then later after the tribulation Christ appears. There's also a couple of verses that annie posted relating the tribulation I've left out.

R - Removal of the restrainer
Something or someone is holding back the full blast of evil that is to come when the Antichrist is unleashed. That someone is the Holy Spirit.

That is a personal interpretation and I can't bunk it by just giving another. But what makes me uncomfortable with that statement is, if He really was talking about the Holy Spirit why didn't he just say so ?

Also the Holy Spirit is never reffered to as just a something or somebody. Which is why it's hard for me to believe that although the Bible talks about the Holy Spirit and refers to it as the Spirit of God or Holy Spirit, here, it is coincidentally mentioned as "he". And what makes that assertion even more improbable is that, it isn't even capitalized. So what's up with that ?

Futhermore in that same chapter verses 1-3
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

What are those verses saying. From my opinion
That I shouldn't be shaken or decieved by Spirit, Word, Letter or any Man concerning the gathering of the church with Christ because that day will not come unless the Anti-Christ be revealed.

E - Exemption from the divine wrath

There's a big difference between the tribulation, which will be caused by the Anti-Christ and Judgement Day or the Day of The Lord, which is the Wrath of God. There are numerous scriptures to support this.

T - Twenty-four elders

I didn't get how that was related to the Pre-Trib rapture. And scince there aren't any verses concerning the Pre-Rapture in that section, its a matter of interpretation, which will only make sense if I believed in a pre-rapture. Like I said, I can't, nor will I try to refute interpretations.

R - Rapture of the Church versus the return of Christ

Agian, interpretation after interpretation.

I - Imminence
The Rapture is presented in the NT as an even that from man's viewpoint could occur at any moment, and believers are to be looking for it all the time (1 Cor 1:7; 16:22, Phil 3:20; 4:5; 1 Thess 1:9-10; Titus 2:13; Heb 9:28; Jude 1:21). Only the pretrib position allows for an imminent, any moment, signless coming of Christ for His own.

1 Cor 1:7, 16:22,
Phil 3:20; 4:5;
1 Thess 1:9-10
Titus 2:13
Heb 9:28
Jude 1:21

I didn't see or find anything in those verses that lead me to believe the Day of the Lord had to be pre -trib or "at any moment". If you wanna try be my guest.

B - Blessed hope.
The truth of the Rapture is intended to be a comfort and blessing to the Lord's people. It is our "blessed hope" (Titus 2:13).

Titus2:13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

Beautiful verse. But there's still no pre-trib in it.

The blessed hope of the Rapture is that Christ will come for the faithful prior to a time of worldwide devastation.

True...
But I just don't know where he got the idea that the tribulation and the worldwide devastation were the same thing.


[edit on 4-8-2005 by joyouslyhumored]

But I just don't know where he got the idea that the tribulation and the worldwide devastation were the same thing.

Then we are further apart then the rapture.

I would go back to help with some of the points above, but if we are not the same on this last quote..then there is no point.

Originally posted by jake1997

But I just don't know where he got the idea that the tribulation and the worldwide devastation were the same thing.

Then we are further apart then the rapture.

I would go back to help with some of the points above, but if we are not the same on this last quote..then there is no point.

Tribulation is part of the 'trials' we go through by following Christ. A lot of it has to do with the worldly scorn for all things to do with God's leadership. A lot of it is because of what Moses told the children of Israel in Deuteronomy.

What seems like blessing to the world is curse in God's view, and what seems like misfortune (like being poor, living a life of service, being an outcast due to unpopular belief and refusal to forsake them) to the world is actually precious in the sight of the LORD.

Up until the time of King Solomon's death, the tribulation of God's people was limited and was usually more of His discipline within the camp. But they rejected His perfect Rule and so when He left from the tabernacle in their midst, they began to know what tribulation really was. They could not stop believing in Him as their Head, even though they didn't regard Him as such when He was present. Yet they no longer had His divine protection and power, and so they were defenseless, in many ways.

Then when scattered, they were still a target to the other nations, only a smaller more frequent target. And the most devastating blow of all was always, being scattered from each other. And the worse and final scattering of all was in 70 AD. From then on, all true believers of Christ have had nothing even close to a picnic in their earthly lives.

Have you had an idyllic life, Jake? Have you suffered, at all, in the name of the LORD? I'm not trying to offend or judge you, it just seems, to me, that maybe that's why you're not grasping this idea.

The 'tribulation' is not about the christian church, or the world, or even the 'Jews'--it's about God's people, who are true Israelites, regardless of birth. Once the HS circumcises the heart, citizenship is made in Israel (again, I stress, not the physical piece of land and the UN declared nation).

Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah. He is the Holy One of Israel, and sent by the Living God, the God who chose Israel. Today's modern christian church chose God, or some semblance thereof, but God is the chooser, not man.

Gentiles at Antioch called the saints 'christians' in the sense of 'christianios' which means 'following Christ'--in order to differentiate between the two resultant sides growing from the division that the Messiah's life and death caused. Today we would most likely call them Messianic Jews. Any gentiles that found grace in the gift of the Messiah became children of Israel, too--the assembly was the assembly in the OT and the NT. The word church is one with roots in paganism and was adopted to mean the same as ekklesia which in acutality, means 'assembly' or 'congregation.'

There is but one tree, and whether one is a natural branch, or a grafted one, the root is Christ and unbelieving branches are cut off-while the rest grow. Man (and Satan) has created the illusion of two separate groups of people after God's will. That is a deception to say the least.

The 'church' is not in the book of Revelation because John didn't write with any designations, such as the 'assembly.' He just wrote saints and elect. But these are the assembly, and the assembly is the ekklesia in Greek. Later on, someone (RCC and/or translators) caused a big misleading signpost when they turned assembly into 'church' by an appointed translation of ekklesia which is not correct at all. It caused a break in continuity of understanding from OT to NT, which just isn't true.

The 144,000 are the remnant of the original assembly, those 'called out' of that assembly, and the great white throng are those who were born not inherently believing in the Living God but who were converted and washed of their sins after Messiah made that possible. They are also part of the 'assembly', and the witness of others in the assembly pointed them the way toward Christ--by their light which is Christ's.

If there was a rapture, and the light was gone, what hope would there be for those left behind? And what need of 'eternal hell' following 7 years of utter darkness in this degenerate world?

Originally posted by jake1997
Then we are further apart then the rapture.

I would go back to help with some of the points above, but if we are not the same on this last quote..then there is no point.

Well, now that we're both here, lets put aside the rapture for a moment, and you can show me your point of view regarding that last quote.

How are they the same thing ? Where does it say they are the same thing ? etc etc

Ok, but first, lets make sure of each others standing

The final 7 years of this era (ie...before Christ returns) are the Tribulation. I have seen some say that the last 3.5 is the 'Great Tribulation', but that is beyond the scope here.
The final 7 years will see the rise of the 7th kingdom, head, king. The beast with 10 horns in Revelation.

Now that beast is identified as a revived Roman/Italian empire by Daniel and Christ. (scripture later , after we make sure of what our goal is)

When that kingdom has received its power under the AC, (the man of lawlessness revealed) the countdown begins. The judgments of Revelation start.
The two witnesses will witness in Jerusalem for the first 3.5 years. At the end of that time is when they will be killed, and then raised and taken to heaven.
This is also the time when the king...the AC...is wounded by the sword as if dead..and all the world marvels...(this is when satan...the beast..takes over by possession) because it appears he rises from the dead. (copycat of Christ). In Revelation, this is the time of the judgments. The world wide devestation I think you are talking about. The seals, bowls, viles...
This is all going on in the last (final) 7 years.

Is this what you want to discuss? m trying to get specific as possible to make sure we are on the same page.

Thanks

Originally posted by jake1997
This is also the time when the king...the AC...is wounded by the sword as if dead..and all the world marvels...(this is when satan...the beast..takes over by possession) because it appears he rises from the dead. (copycat of Christ). In Revelation, this is the time of the judgments. The world wide devestation I think you are talking about. The seals, bowls, viles...
This is all going on in the last (final) 7 years.

But what if??
it turns out, that the final 7 years of this present age have already started?

What if we get to the end of the age and no rapture of anyone has happened in the way you describe?

Actually, I was asking for a couple chapters to read or maybe a website I could look into.

I usually don't discuss the book of Revelation, because I don't have a stand on the whole thing just yet. And scince its a very symbolic book I don't have the habit of taking just one interpretation as valid. I usually take the most scripture-based ones and put them on hold. So to speak.

So if you can get that interpretation or post me the verses I'd be very thankful.

Joy
I know you were asking Jake, and not me--but I do have some scriptural references that you might find helpful regarding the 7 plagues, vials, etc.

These are from the 'blessings and cursings' in Deuteronomy 28. I'm not posting as much of Deuteronomy as is applicable, which I think is probably the 28 to 34th chapters. But notice the highlighted words for comparison:

20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.
21 The LORD shall make the pestilence (plague) cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it.
22 The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption#1, and with a fever#2, and with an inflammation#3, and with an extreme burning, #4, and with the sword#5, and with blasting#6, and with mildew#7; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish.
23 And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron.
24 The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
25 The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.
26 And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away.
27 The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed.
28 The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart:
29 And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee.

Revelation 19:21
Revelation 16:10
Revelation 16:11
Revelation 16:9
Revelation 19:21

Also, read Deuteronomy 29:14-28 for references to Revelation 14:10, 8:11, 3:5, 15:1, 15:4.

Deuteronomy 31:19 and Revelation 14:3
Deuteronomy 32:4 and Revelation 15:3-4
Deuteronomy 6:8, 11:8 and Revelation 7:3,4 and 9:4

I hope this helps you in your study of Revelation. I have found the majority of the crossreferences are in Deuteronomy, Isaiah, and Jeremiah--although they are also scattered all throughout the OT, those books have the main concentrations that I know of, so far.

queenannie38/

The 'church' is not in the book of Revelation because John didn't write with any designations, such as the 'assembly.' He just wrote saints and elect. But these are the assembly, and the assembly is the ekklesia in Greek. Later on, someone (RCC and/or translators) caused a big misleading signpost when they turned assembly into 'church' by an appointed translation of ekklesia which is not correct at all. It caused a break in continuity of understanding from OT to NT, which just isn't true.

Please dont take this as personal.....

Ekklisia actually means a gathering....people gathered together in the homes to worship and pray to the Lord Jesus Christ......as more and more Christian grew, more space was needed and so the Church building was made.....The church is actually very similar to the Jewish temple ....God took flesh and became man so that He fullfilled the Old Testament prophecies.....
God was manifest in the flesh" (I Tim. 3 16)
And so His image becomes an Icon......

"No one has ever seen God; only the Son, Who is in the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known" (John 1:18),
the Evangelist proclaims. That is, He has revealed the Image or Icon of God. For being the brightness of [God's] glory, and the express image of [God's] person (Hebrews 1:3),
the Word of God in the Incarnation revealed to the world,
in His own Divinity, the Image of the Father.
When St. Philip asks Jesus,
"'Lord, show us the Father,'
He answered him: 'Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know Me, Philip?
He who has seen Me has seen the Father'" (John 14:8-9
The church is needed because Christ set this up Himself......He Told His disciples that He came to fullfill the Law, and He did...

St. John the Evangelist tells us, "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14).
We now have an image..where before there was no image of God....only His WORD-LOGOS and Power was felt!



"Whatever has been transmitted to us through the Law, and the prophets, and the apostles, and the evangelists, we receive and know and esteem highly, and beyond that we ask nothing more. . . Let us be fully satisfied with it, and rest therein, removing not the ancient landmarks (Prov. 22:28), nor violating the divine Tradition."

Divine Tradition is the Oral Law......


The Church is filled to overflowing with the Lord Christ, for she is "the fullness of Him that filleth all in all" (Eph. 1:23)


THE ATTRIBUTES OF THE CHURCH

quote///
n the Old Testament, God ordered a liturgy, or specific pattern of worship. We find it described in detail in the books of Exodus and Leviticus.


Councils of the Church: A monumental conflict (recorded in Acts 15) arose in the early Church over legalism, the keeping of Jewish laws by the Christians, as means of salvation. "So the apostles and elders came together [in council] to consider the matter" (Acts 15:6).

St. Paul teaches that we are raised up with Christ in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6), "fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God" (Ephesians 2:19). At the end of the age, a new heaven and a new earth will be revealed (Revelation 21:1).

The Church which is the `pillar and the ground of truth' (I Timothy 3:15),

We can all be members of the Church......Christ likened Himself to ...
quote///
For the Lord said, "I am the true vine... As the branch
cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine, no more can ye, except ye abide in Me.
If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:1, 4, 6).

quote///
The Apostles, as per our Lord's command, preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ and founded churches in Europe, Asia and Africa. Under the direction of the Apostles and their successors, whom they appointed to carry on their mission, the Church began to thrive.
At each city and town that the Apostles traveled they would appoint a bishop to continue to minister to the faithful, before leaving on their missionary journeys. As the Church grew, the bishops in turn had to appoint priests and deacons to help them with their flock.

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God" (1 Peter 2:9:10).

The Holy Scripture speaks about the Church as a Kingdom of God in a number of places: Matthew 3:2, Matthew 4:17, Matthew 6:10, Matthew 6:33, Matthew 9:35, Matthew 18:3, Mark 10:14-15, Luke 12:32, Luke 17:21, John 3:5, John 18:36, Romans 14:17, 1 Corinthians 4:20, Colossians 1:12-22.

he Gospels and Apostolic Epistles did not appear all at once and all at one place. For decades after the Church was created, the Church was instructed not by the Scripture, but by the oral preaching that the Apostles called the tradition (1 Corinthians 11:16 and 15:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 3:6, 1 Timothy 6:20).

The Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles definitely taught that the Church would exist until the last times of the world: "And in the days of these (pagan) kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom,
which shall never be destroyed... it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever," — predicted an Angel to the prophet Daniel (Daniel 2:44).
The Lord made a promise to the Apostle Paul, "Upon this rock (of faith) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18).

The Son of God came to the earth with the goal of bringing the truth to people, as He said before His suffering on the Cross,
"To this end was I born,
and for this cause came I into the world,
that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice" (John 18:37).
The Apostle Paul, instructing his disciple Timothy on how to fulfill the bishop's office, concluded, "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God,
which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15).
Likened to a vine /am I repeating myself?

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman... Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing" (John 15:1, 4-5).
Why do We Need the Church?


According to the prophets, the goal of the Messiah’s coming into the world was the founding of the Kingdom of God, into which a new, spiritually renewed Israel should have entered.


As for the pre tribulation .....Jake knows I dont beleive this...as I have said many times before..So Jake , no hard feelings!

The Inconsistency of the 'Rapture'

joyouslyhumored.......Revelation explained?

THE BOOK OF THE END

Also/
approach of the end of the world and some features of the Antichrist's personality, and we will describe the Second Coming of Christ, the Resurrection of the Dead, the Last (or Universal) Judgment and eternal life, as taught in the Scriptures.

IX
helen

Originally posted by joyouslyhumored
Actually, I was asking for a couple chapters to read or maybe a website I could look into.

I usually don't discuss the book of Revelation, because I don't have a stand on the whole thing just yet. And scince its a very symbolic book I don't have the habit of taking just one interpretation as valid. I usually take the most scripture-based ones and put them on hold. So to speak.

So if you can get that interpretation or post me the verses I'd be very thankful.

The fastest route is to read Mark 13
Even the prophets of the OT spoke of the end times like that so Revelation should be no real suprise.
The Tribulation of Revelation can be matched up with many other scriptures. Mark 13 is one of them, and it is Jesus doing the talking.

Originally posted by jake1997

The fastest route is to read Mark 13
Even the prophets of the OT spoke of the end times like that so Revelation should be no real suprise.

Just the very nature of the name 'revelation' carries some assurance of a certain degree of surprise. I know I was certainly surprised--after trying to verify the commonly held popular interpretation in some sort of logical non-contradictory way, I found out it's not at all like what popular opinion says it is.

And it's all out of the bible, easily verified, and the problem with the mainstream ideas are that they are based in man's socio-political concerns instead of God's theocratical concerns. Not to mention the predominant preoccupation with 'the antichrist'.

It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, not '101 ways to spot the antichrist.'

The more you look at the whole idea of eschatology as something negative in any respect, you're not going to see it clear. And trust me, you're not seeing it clearly at all. And if you were, you'd give up your hopes in the rapture, because the time that you say it will occur has already passed by.

The Tribulation of Revelation can be matched up with many other scriptures. Mark 13 is one of them, and it is Jesus doing the talking.

So am I correct to assume that you can't be bothered with looking at the verses I posted--since you already have it all figured out except the waiting?

Have you ever heard what G-O-D stands for?

G ood
O rderly
D irection

How?

H onesty
O pen-mindedness
W illingness

Originally posted by helen670

Please dont take this as personal.....

Why would I take it personal? I didn't write the bible. But thank you for being concerned that I would. You don't have to worry about offending me, though, in any discussion.

Ekklisia actually means a gathering....people gathered together in the homes to worship and pray to the Lord Jesus Christ

Assembly, noun: A group of persons gathered together for a common reason, as for a legislative, religious, educational, or social purpose.

So does assembly. What did God call His people to, with the trumpet blast?

One of two things: a sacred, or solemn, meeting or battle

'churches' are temples--God has one in each of us these days--that's why He let the last one be torn down. He raised up the next one in 3 days and it's still standing right now.

Thanks for the info guys. No such thing as to much information.

Now to do my homework.

my question is is there any wrighting in the bible that lead to think there is a Rapture, where in the bible does it talk the rapture. I dout there is any proof in the bible about it, why because i have never read it. But sometimes i am blind. So i ask all ya about it???