The Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Answers to all your questions

Originally posted by slymattb
my question is is there any wrighting in the bible that lead to think there is a Rapture, where in the bible does it talk the rapture. I dout there is any proof in the bible about it, why because i have never read it. But sometimes i am blind. So i ask all ya about it???

I don't think you're blind--there's not any logical ordered evidence for such a thing in scripture--because the more it's searched for the less sense it makes, from the understanding that all other important, even crucial, points in the bible are clearly made, complete in their context (most are 1 or 2 sentences long).

Such crucial points I'm speaking of are such as these:

(just some examples)
John 3:16-17
Matthew 28:18-20
Matthew 6:33
John 16:33
John 15:12-14
Ephesians 6:12
1 Timothy 3:16
Revelation 22:12

Here is a good page to get you started on some research if you want to know how a non-biblical idea came to be accepted so fervently in modern times of seemingly evangelical 'success'--it's somewhat opinionated, but the facts are correct and verifiable, and can give you an idea of how all this got started and thus became a belief (or maybe even an 'accepted doctrine')--and where to start some sort of research of your own.

But don't give up searching for the truth, if you're really interested. God will show you, this I know you know--so find out the truth for yourself.

This what I say, is from my own perspective and experience in study and research, so in a way, it is biased, too. But I truthfully see no support whatsoever in the scriptures to support this commonly held belief of 'rapture' and all the rest of it--but all I would encourage you to do is to investigate for yourself, with the Spirit guiding you in truth. That way you can be sure of your conclusion--whatever you are shown by the Spirit of Truth.

Queen


Thanks very much. Of course ill go and study the fact about the rapture. But it seams you and me have alot of the same beliefs. so most likely what you found out, I will too. But well see:

By the way if you can do me a favor and check the topic about (IS Jesus God or the Son of God???) I started it and it would be nice to have others see what you say about it.

[edit on 11-8-2005 by slymattb]

Originally posted by slymattb
my question is is there any wrighting in the bible that lead to think there is a Rapture, where in the bible does it talk the rapture. I dout there is any proof in the bible about it, why because i have never read it. But sometimes i am blind. So i ask all ya about it???

The word 'rapture' occurs in the latin translation of the bible.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That verse can be written

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be raptured together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be harpazo together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


All of those say the same things. The only difference is the language of that one word.

So there you have the word 'rapture'.
If you dont like it, then call it harpazo'. I dont care.
If you dont like that, then call it 'caught up'.
Its the same thing.
But one thing you cannot do, is deny it exists. If you do that, then there is no need to discuss it.

caught means to take hold,to seize and hold. So the meaning to be caught up together means to be taken to a place together( in this case the clouds). Rapture means to be change in a momment I believe and mean totally two different things

[edit on 14-8-2005 by slymattb]

Originally posted by slymattb
caught means to take hold,to seize and hold. So the meaning to be caught up together means to be taken to a place together( in this case the clouds). Rapture means to be change in a momment I believe and mean totally two different things

[edit on 14-8-2005 by slymattb]

Wow

Unbelievable

Let me try one more time.

In spanish Si = Yes in english = Oui in french = ja in german = vai in greek

caught up in english = rapture in latin = harpazo in greek =

ITS THE SAME WORD IN A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE SLY.

All the verses with 'harpazo' in them:

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

John 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

John 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Actsn 23:10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring him into the castle.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth); such an one caught up to the third heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

If 'rapture' is correct, then all the verses should make sense with that word used:

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent rapture it.

Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and raptures that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

John 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and rapture him, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

John 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf raptures them, and scattereth the sheep.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man rapture them of my hand.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to rapture them out of my Father's hand.

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord raptured Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Actsn 23:10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to rapture him from among them, and to bring him into the castle.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one raptured to the third heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was raptured into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be raptured together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, rapturing them of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was raptured unto God, and to his throne.



[edit on 8/14/2005 by queenannie38]

[edit on 8/14/2005 by queenannie38]

jake the greek wrighting( the first wrighting) do not have the word rapture. Second I think Queen point is right rapture does not make sense all the time in place of caught up. Brother you need more proof in the bible to say something like this. Dont be so mad and think i am a none believer. Because the fact is I do believe in God and Jesus. I just dont believe in something that can not be provein. you say latin bible so it is true. My brother I tell you it has to be provable in all bibles. Not just one.

Originally posted by queenannie38
Call it whatever you prefer, Jake. It's still a 'cunningly
devised fable.'

Actually, queenannie, it's a regurgitated cult belief from the mid
1800's that was invented by cultist (and failed Anglican Priest)
Nelson Darby. But 'fable' is a word that also fits nicely!

www.catholic.com...

Soul Candy. False teaching, bad interpretation and
nothing less than soul candy. (tastes great, but is bad
for your health).

'Rapture' is impossible. It would mean Christ comes
back twice. He said He'd be back once. Christ doesn't lie.
That means any chatter about 'rapture' is just bunk.

www.catholic.com...

EXCELLENT article 'The Truth Hurts' -
twtministries.com...
Provides resources and additional reading
on the false doctrine of 'rapture'.

I personally recommend 'The Rapture Trap'.
VERY good book.

The title of this thread is 'Pre-Tribulation Rapture
Answers to all your questons'.

These links I have provided REALLY WILL answer truthfully
all questions about the regurgitated 1800's cult of Rapture.

[edit on 8/16/2005 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by queenannie38
Call it whatever you prefer, Jake. It's still a 'cunningly
devised fable.'

Actually, queenannie, it's a regurgitated cult belief from the mid
1800's that was invented by cultist (and failed Anglican Priest)
Nelson Darby. But 'fable' is a word that also fits nicely!

If you've ever perused Darby's commentary--it's obviously his baby!

point taken its a wrong belief

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by queenannie38
Call it whatever you prefer, Jake. It's still a 'cunningly
devised fable.'

Actually, queenannie, it's a regurgitated cult belief from the mid
1800's that was invented by cultist (and failed Anglican Priest)
Nelson Darby. But 'fable' is a word that also fits nicely!

This is a great example of inadequate research which leads to ignorance.

For the rest of the class, see what you can come up with from the period circa 300 AD - (minus)

Better yet....try the bible. LOL

and compare enoch and genesis to the end times as I did in another thread here

[edit on 24-8-2005 by jake1997]

Originally posted by jake1997

This is a great example of inadequate research which leads to ignorance.

Actually, the example of inadequate research is shown by your posts and what you say is so...

For the rest of the class, see what you can come up with from the period circa 300 AD - (minus)

True--that's when all the falseness began--with the birth of modern christianity, thanks to Constantine. 'The prince of the people to come,' perhaps.

and compare enoch and genesis to the end times as I did in another thread here

You know, Jake--it is so puzzling to me how you can research these things beyond the bounds of what we've been 'allowed' to have--as far as canon and such--but yet you can still hold on to your attachments to the falsehoods propagated by religion.

The truth is hard to deny, if one has an open mind. It can be done, however--and you don't even know you are doing it.

I pray that you will see, though--because it is a case of having the opportunity to know and still believing something other than the truth. From what the bible says, it's worse to do that than to be ignorant altogether and just not know.

The fact that Enoch didn't die, or Elijah, doesn't prove the idea of 'rapture' of a bunch of people. It does prove that God doesn't always require death for translation. No doubt these two were less afraid of death because they knew God, truly--something that is just as rare today as it was then.

The rapture theory is borne of fear--fear of dying, fear of God not really being able to raise us from the dead, and fear that hardtimes might beat down otherwise 'strong faith' in God. To really study and relate to the words of Peter and Paul would show that they expected to suffer much now and even were glad to do so--they knew their reward would make that suffering seem like a stubbed toe. They both knew their death was close, and I'm sure they were glad to know they'd have not much longer to wait to see God's face. I bet Paul was the only man who ever went to the chopping block with a smile on his face and maybe even a bounce in his gait.

Originally posted by jake1997
Better yet....try the bible. LOL

I have (and CONTINUE to) read the bible. And my interpretation
is the exact same as that which all christians had in the
first 1800 years of Christianity ... there is no easy-out rapture.
And this is the interpretation held by 1.9 billion of the 2 billion
Christians currently living on this planet.

Only 100 million in the history of Christianity (out of tens of billions)
have falsely interpreted scripture to mean that Christ will come
back twice - once for a rapture and then again for judgement at the end.

The false doctrine of 'rapture' is dangerous soul candy and is anti-biblical.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by jake1997
Better yet....try the bible. LOL

I have (and CONTINUE to) read the bible. And my interpretation
...

I said it before and I will say it again. As long as people keep putting themselves into Gods word, it will keep getting screwed up.

My interpretation
MY view
The way 'I' see it
I think


JUst let Gods word say what it says. The same thing happens with Genesis and evolution/ID.
"My Interpretion"
The same thing happens with the RCC and the 2nd commandment.
It clearly says dont even make images , yet alone pray to the idols represented by them and somehow the rcc says "MY interpretation...."

As for the 1800 years...I will go along with that I suppose. Its close enough. For the first 300 after Christ there was a rapture...then came the RCC

And yet there is no direct saying of the rapture, we ill be change in a moment, does not mean rapture. Dont you think Jesus maight have said soemthing about it.

Jake says 'let the bible say what it says' -- yet ignores all things that don't fit his understanding and much of what he does find he adds to or manipulates.

Is this a case of 'not practicing what one preaches?'

[edit on 8/27/2005 by queenannie38]

Originally posted by jake1997
As long as people keep putting themselves into Gods word,
it will keep getting screwed up.

Which is exactly what you are doing. There is nothing in
scripture that says there will be a rapture and that Christ
will come back TWICE ... It's dangerous soul-candy cult
escapism. Stop putting wishful thinking into scripture Jake.
'It will keep getting screwed up' (your words) until you stop.

Those who subscribe to escapist rapture theology are in
for a world of hurt when the 'easy out' bus doesn't pull up
to take the special chosen ones away from it all.

Originally posted by jake1997
For the first 300 after Christ there was a rapture...then came the RCC

No there wasn't.
There was never a rapture prior to Darby's cult in the mid 1800's.
AND ... The Catholic Church pre-dates 300 (by 300 years).
You are double wrong Jake.

Here's a list of popes Jake. An unbroken chain from Peter
to Pope Benedict XXVI. As you can plainly see, there definately
was a Catholic Church prior to the year 300. I'll just post up
to the year 300, or it will take up too much space.

When you are done looking at that, you can read these documents
that clearly show that the Catholic Church did indeed exhist before
300 AD and that the center of the Catholic Church was ROME.
www.catholic.com...
Early Church father documents and other historical documents
are all available. Read them. Educate yourself.

St. Peter (32-67)
St. Linus (67-76)
St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
St. Clement I (88-97)
St. Evaristus (97-105)
St. Alexander I (105-115)
St. Sixtus I (115-125) -- also called Xystus I
St. Telesphorus (125-136)
St. Hyginus (136-140)
St. Pius I (140-155)
St. Anicetus (155-166)
St. Soter (166-175)
St. Eleutherius (175-189)
St. Victor I (189-199)
St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
St. Callistus I (217-22)
St. Urban I (222-30)
St. Pontain (230-35)
St. Anterus (235-36)
St. Fabian (236-50)
St. Cornelius (251-53)
St. Lucius I (253-54)
St. Stephen I (254-257)
St. Sixtus II (257-258)
St. Dionysius (260-268)
St. Felix I (269-274)
St. Eutychian (275-283)
St. Caius (283-296) -- also called Gaius
St. Marcellinus (296-304)


[edit on 8/27/2005 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by jake1997
The same thing happens with the RCC and the 2nd commandment.
It clearly says dont even make images

Wrong again.
www.catholic.com...

You'd best go tell GOD that HE is breaking that commandment.
Afterall, HE is the one that told Moses to make the Serpant statue
and to raise it up for all the people to bow down in front of. And
HE is the one that told the people to make golden angels on the
Ark of the Covenant, and HE is the one ... etc. etc. etc.

But of course you have been told all this before ... that Catholics
don't worship statues ... but you don't listen. It's a waste of
breath to even go over this with you.

www.catholic.com...

Best take any pictures you have in your house OUT. You are worshiping
'idols' if you don't. Best never go to Washington DC. You'd be worshiping
the 'idols' of Lincoln and Jefferson in the memorials.

The accusation of idol worship is the same claim that was made about the Native American Spirituality, and it sure is tiresome. Cuz Natives see Spirit in all creation, rocks, trees, rivers, fish, etc. they were accused of worshipping rocks....
I wonder what the ruling on the nativity scenes would be? Sure are a lot of them around Christmas. Since they are made of styrofoam, I guess all the people who put them up across America every year worship styrofoam.