Why do some people feel the need to post outright lies about Masons and Masonry?

Originally posted by pepsi78



if you enter there with belifes and statues icons and simbols that represents god than you can only become worse and not better.
Cause you simply only amplify there what you have learned out side the masonari i didint say it you the masons said it.
you said that it is compatible with god but how can that be when you brake the 10 comandments? isnt it agaist god so how can that mach with god

You're getting symbols confused with idols.

The All-Seeing Eye or Eye of Providence is a symbol - not an idol.
Just like the Cross of Crucifixion is a symbol and not an idol.



i·dol ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dl)
n.
An image used as an object of worship.
A false god.
One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.
Something visible but without substance.


sym·bol
n.
Something that represents something else by association, resemblance, or convention, especially a material object used to represent something invisible.

I don't see anywhere in the Bible where "symbols" cannot be used. If they are banned you better have a word with all of the Christians who take Communion and eat the symbolic flesh of Christ.

Originally posted by intrepid
OK, let me break this down. God had a DIRECT covenant with the Israelites. That doesn't exist in Christianity. They go to the Father through Christ. You DO know that there is a reason for the Old and New Testement?

Dude, I want to help you out here, check this out:

babelfish.altavista.com...

This is not an insult but this tool may make it easier for you to understand what's being said.

this has become a isue for the catholic church
go ask a priest he will tell you it is true but they have no way of changeing it has it would be the right thing.

Originally posted by pepsi78

it says or any likenesss any idol or anyother things that are in heaven
that including simbols of god that means simbols icons and so on

remember it says idols or anyother things that might represent haven.
it does not matter if you pray to it or not it says clear black on gray
yuo cant make them

OK. I am officially finished.

Have a nice stay at ATS, pepsi. Nice, erm, talking to you.

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by pepsi78



if you enter there with belifes and statues icons and simbols that represents god than you can only become worse and not better.
Cause you simply only amplify there what you have learned out side the masonari i didint say it you the masons said it.
you said that it is compatible with god but how can that be when you brake the 10 comandments? isnt it agaist god so how can that mach with god

You're getting symbols confused with idols.

The All-Seeing Eye or Eye of Providence is a symbol - not an idol.
Just like the Cross of Crucifixion is a symbol and not an idol.



i·dol ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dl)
n.
An image used as an object of worship.
A false god.
One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.
Something visible but without substance.


sym·bol
n.
Something that represents something else by association, resemblance, or convention, especially a material object used to represent something invisible.

I don't see anywhere in the Bible where "symbols" cannot be used. If they are banned you better have a word with all of the Christians who take Communion and eat the symbolic flesh of Christ.

it does not only say about idols or cant you see
wait i'll post it again
You shall not make for yourself an idol, OR HERE IT IS -> (any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.) You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God. . . .
so it does not matter if you pray to it or not simpli because it is a simbol of god it's rong , understand now?

Originally posted by pepsi78
it does not only say about idols or cant you see

You shall not make for yourself an idol, OR HERE IT IS ->

(any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.) You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God. . . .

Nope. You still don't have an understanding of English.

A symbol is not a likeness. That's the whole point of symbolism.
And let's not even get into the argument that Freemasons do not worship the Eye anyway. Quite simply - they don't. They worship their god - whichever denomination they are. The Eye is merely a symbol that can be rallied around. Nobody suggests that it is God. It is merely a symbol of His power and wisdom. For it to be an idol, the Eye itself would need to be worshipped - which it isn't.

Originally posted by pepsi78

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by pepsi78



if you enter there with belifes and statues icons and simbols that represents god than you can only become worse and not better.
Cause you simply only amplify there what you have learned out side the masonari i didint say it you the masons said it.
you said that it is compatible with god but how can that be when you brake the 10 comandments? isnt it agaist god so how can that mach with god

You're getting symbols confused with idols.

The All-Seeing Eye or Eye of Providence is a symbol - not an idol.
Just like the Cross of Crucifixion is a symbol and not an idol.



i·dol ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dl)
n.
An image used as an object of worship.
A false god.
One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.
Something visible but without substance.


sym·bol
n.
Something that represents something else by association, resemblance, or convention, especially a material object used to represent something invisible.

I don't see anywhere in the Bible where "symbols" cannot be used. If they are banned you better have a word with all of the Christians who take Communion and eat the symbolic flesh of Christ.

it does not only say about idols or cant you see
wait i'll post it again
You shall not make for yourself an idol, OR HERE IT IS ->

(any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.) You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God. . . .
so it does not matter if you pray to it or not simpli because it is a simbol of god it's rong , understand now

?

You shall not make for yourself an idol, "or"or something else not a idol, representing something in the heaven not that you pray to but a object and god it's self has he is in the heaven i didnt write it the bible says it -> any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God. . . .

What comes after "or: is something else besides the idol, it says any likeness that means anything or anybody in the heaven dont paint it dont draw it
i mean come on what more do you want


[edit on 26-10-2005 by pepsi78]

[edit on 26-10-2005 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by pepsi78
i didnt write it

Thank God for that - or it would be even harder to understand.

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by pepsi78
i didnt write it

Thank God for that - or it would be even harder to understand.

it's really not about my eanglish has i'll say twice english is my secound languege.
When you cant admit something you respond with other than the subject.
i just wanted to point out that if you go with rong ideas there and do not understand god and what he wants when you enter there you say that you only amplify what you have learned has a cristin and that simply does not make you better but only worse amplify something missguided and it will make it worse.
Than how can you say it makes you better i just dont see how.
If i look in the bible i probaly will find lot's and lot's of arguments showing
in fact that what you amplify there has spiritual knolege is worse than a cristian religion and not better at all.

Has you can see clear anything (Exodus 20:4,5).

(You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth); you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. (Exodus 20:4,5).




[edit on 26-10-2005 by pepsi78]

[edit on 26-10-2005 by pepsi78]

[edit on 26-10-2005 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by The Axeman

Yes, thank you. I knew exactly what it said; I just wanted to see if our friend Pepsi here had done his/her/it’s homework. I got the answer I expected.

The commandments say that we should not make idols; that is, graven images unto which we give worship to any god other than the Almighty. Let me state this again, for the record: FREEMASONRY IS NOT WORSHIP OF ANY KIND.

If Masonry (a fraternity, not a religion) is wrong for having a symbol (not an idol) that represents the idea of Almighty God watching over us, then likewise is the Church guilty of this very offense. Almost every church, actually. The Cross, for example, is not an idol, it is a symbol. The fish is not an idol, it is a symbol. These symbols represent the miracles and the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made. They are reminders of what Christ did for us.

I’m inviting trouble, perhaps, comparing Masonry to a religion in this context, but hopefully our readers are intelligent enough to see the analogy without blurring the lines between religion and Masonry. There is no worship in Masonry; therefore it is not a religion. Period. Paragraph.

[edit on 10/26/05 by The Axeman]

First of all I can't really say if masonry is a religion or not. More so being the last (not) because there really is no proof of this. I have looked up a number of websites that say so but don't really buy into the fears of others. A good saying from my youth by my father was "Don't beleive everything you here and only half of what you see." And besides who hasn't broken at least one of the commandments in there lifetime. The only thing I do worry about is the parts I have read hear about the rules of the fraternity. Just one simple question I have. I understand that as long as a person believes in a "Supreme Being" or God then it's ok. My question is this. What if someone in the fraternity believes Satan is their "Supreme Being" What then? I understand the part about studying other religions to enhance ones knowlege and such. And I understand the gratitude shown to other members about their respective religions. Everyone is entitled to that. I'm sure once we all get to where we are going the answers will be given. Please understand I am accusing the fraternity of no wrong doing in my statements or questions. I would just like to know a few things. That is how one learns and I love to learn.

it does not matter religion or art it is forbitten

(You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth); you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. (Exodus 20:4,5).

And they clame to amplify what they know than they amplify it makeing it worse.simply cause of the eye but god states he does not want simbols representing him and that is in the 10 comandment

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
You must believe in a (C)creator for the (hypothetically speaking) religion of masonry which BUILDS upon the acknowledgement of a creator with lessons of a philosophical, scientific, astronomical, or esoteric nature known only to (B)brothers i.e. (hypothetically speaking) members of the church.

Astrology and esotericism don’t even really manifest in Masonry, to the best of my knowledge. True, there are a lot of Brothers who are interested in such things, but it is by their own choice, not by coercion of the fraternity.

It is a (hypothetically speaking) religion that accepts all other religions under the guise of equality. I'm no crusader, but if the guy next to me thinks everyone born on Earth is born under a dark overloard, and we both look to the same Eyeball on the (L)lodge wall, then what are we in attendance of exactly?

No. It is not a religion, hypothetically or otherwise. Furthermore, it doesn’t teach that all religions are equal or the same. Albert Pike makes note of a lot of the similarities in his work, however Freemasonry proper makes no such distinction. The Brother is left to the devices of his own religion, simply with the admonishment and (ostensibly) the desire to find more Light in regard to his own faith.

Furthermore, you, as a Mason, would be in attendance of whatever your belief dictates. As to the “Dark Overlord” comment, if that were to be the case, that candidate probably wouldn’t hang around long, as Masons are in the tradition of diffusing “Light” not “Darkness.” In fact, if when the time came, the man said “The Dark Overlord” the ceremony would probably come to a screeching halt, and he most likely would be led out of the lodge room, and wouldn't be welcome back. Just a thought.

What about Judges? Lawyers, doctors, witnesses in court, presidents and all other manner of public offices... they all take oaths upon the Holy Bible, so what's the difference?

What about them? Of course those oaths are different animals. Are you telling me that all oaths are the same REGARDLESS of context? If so, then maybe (hypothetically speaking) masons will start initiating (B)brothers in open court so we can all benefit from the rituals. Of course they are different.

Well, they do take obligations to perform certain duties and follow certain precepts, do they not? The purpose of initiation in private is so that the experience is fresh for the candidate. It would not have the same impact if he knew what was going to happen, or by seeing someone else go through it.

I've read there can be more than one book on the altar but most likely just the one belonging to most members in attendance (which isn't all that different as far as my general idea goes since the metaphorical idea is always in play). I don't know if it is different during an initiation ceramony. At the least, the initiate would address the book of his choice.

OK I will concede that it might be possible to have two VSL’s on the altar, if there was a mixture of brethren of different faiths in attendance. But you are correct; the VSL on the altar is a symbol of the Divine Will of God. Masonry, again, places no religion above or below another. That is not to say that Masonry considers them all to be equal, either. It just means that Freemasonry, as an institution, takes no position on the matter of religion.

The reason that some religious bodies denounce Masonry could vary greatly form one to another. Some people just believe it goes against their faith, [...]

That is precisely what I said. Many religions probably don't want to see members placing their book on a "secular" altar and bow before it, etc. which are acts that the religions might find objectionable. There could be other reasons, but I'd guess most of it lies within the structure of the meetings including initiations and other ceremonies.

If the man is a member of said religion, they would probably find it more offensive if he did it on another Holy Book, no? People seem to miss the point a lot, which accounts for a lot of the banter we see about evil satanic Freemasons; If those objectors knew what was going on, or rather would take us at our word, there would be no more problems. But we are in no great hurry to change our ways just to please people who are ignorant of the ceremonies, etc.

Why should we change, when it’s they who have the problem? Ignorance can be dangerous, my friend.

But Axeman, you haven't said how masonry IS NOT a religion. No disrepect to you, but you have only done what is done frequently on this board. You have dissected my post with instances of agreement and disagreement yet without answering the overall question.

Sleep on it (because my white pills (perfectly legal) are about to kick in and COast to Coast is on) and in your own words just tell me how masonry IS NOT a religion FOR YOU. I'm curious what you think and know on this idea.

I only answer the questions honestly, to the best of my ability, and when applicable, with references to back me up. Is this what is frequently done here?

Why is Freemasonry not religion to ME? Well haven’t I explained that clearly enough?

I don’t go to lodge to worship, period. I go there for fellowship, learning and to work on me. The ritual, for all that is discussed on this forum and others, serves many purposes. It helps with memorization, which exercises the mind. It helps build confidence; it helps with articulation, it helps with public speaking, it helps build character by having each other as examples (both negative and positive), it helps with responsibility, leadership, communication; in some cases, Masonry helps grow a belly (Mmmmmmmm... Roast beef... ). And all this by just participating in the lodge.

Everyone goes on and on about the teachings of Freemasonry in a religious context, when in fact it really isn’t like that. Yes, there are some allegories, or parables as Jesus liked to call them, and they are meant to impress lessons; but these aren’t in any way related to worship. They are simply stories with a moral. Fables, if you will.

I’ve often heard it said: “Tell me and I’ll forget. Show me, and I may not remember. Involve me, and I’ll understand.”

This is what Masonry is. It involves the candidate in the lesson, thereby making more of an impression than history class, or whatever weak analogy was made recently by our grammatically challenged friend.

So, there you have it. Why Masonry is not a religion to me. I hope it was satisfactory.

Aaaaaaaand a banana man, just for good measure:



[edit on 10/26/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by pepsi78
When you cant admit something you respond with other than the subject.
i just wanted to point out that if you go with rong ideas there and do not understand god and what he wants when you enter there you say that you only amplify what you have learned has a cristin and that simply does not make you better but only worse amplify something missguided and it will make it worse.

*Takes deep breath*

I've explained to you that the Eye is not an idol. I've explained to you that it is a symbol. I've explained to you that an idol is not a symbol - an idol is a direct representation, a symbol is not.

Let's take a look at the Bible passage that you keep quoting:


20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth

It says that you cannot make a likeness. It does not say that you cannot make a symbol (which is not a likeness anyway). If you are trying to say that the Eye is a direct representation of a god's eye, then you are even further from the mark. It is symbolic of his wisdom and power (as I've already pointed out).

quote by axeman
I've read there can be more than one book on the "altar" but most likely just the one belonging to most members in attendance (which isn't all that different as far as my general idea goes since the metaphorical idea is always in play). I don't know if it is different during an initiation ceramony. At the least, the initiate would address the book of his choice.
end of quote

I can understand temple that it has 2 meanings but a altar is only associated with religion and church.

[edit on 26-10-2005 by pepsi78]

[edit on 26-10-2005 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by pepsi78
When you cant admit something you respond with other than the subject.
i just wanted to point out that if you go with rong ideas there and do not understand god and what he wants when you enter there you say that you only amplify what you have learned has a cristin and that simply does not make you better but only worse amplify something missguided and it will make it worse.

*Takes deep breath*

I've explained to you that the Eye is not an idol. I've explained to you that it is a symbol. I've explained to you that an idol is not a symbol - an idol is a direct representation, a symbol is not.

Let's take a look at the Bible passage that you keep quoting:


20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth

It says that you cannot make a likeness. It does not say that you cannot make a symbol (which is not a likeness anyway). If you are trying to say that the Eye is a direct representation of a god's eye, then you are even further from the mark. It is symbolic of his wisdom and power (as I've already pointed out).

yes but here is another quote from the bible makeing it more clear that it does not matter if you worship it or not if it's a simbol or more.

(You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth); you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. (Exodus 20:4,5).
it does not matter if it's a idol or not has you can see it above
You cant make them for worship and you cant make has a art has just a simbol it is in the 10 comandment
so it does not matter if it's a idol or not.
It is the 10 comandment so admit the eye is rong


[edit on 26-10-2005 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by Trinityman

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
My main reasons for suspicon were the number of Masons I knew of in high positions...

This is encouraging, as it shows that high moral standards are respected by and reflected in our wider society. There are many places in the world where freemasons are discriminated against - at least some people can see through the stuff and nonsense.

Masons aren't a secret society....The only secret they truly have is 'there is no secret'... An organization that raises funds to help support widows and orphans can't be all bad.

Anyone taking the time to research the Masons dogmas and oaths will find they are the founding fathers of our nation. There were approximately 84 % Masons and Christians. 60 something % were Christians. While they do not discuiss religion and politics in their lodges, like our founding fathers, many are active christians and politically represented in just about every trade you can imagine.

I know Pastors who have been sent to prision...I also know masons who've been sent to prision. Oddly, more ministers have been imprisioned than masons. Is Masonary a cult? Some have claimed it is, others have claimed it isn't. Regardless, christians are referred to as "culltists" in Websters dictionary... What really matters is where your heart is and who is your Lord and King.

Originally posted by pepsi78
quote by axeman
I've read there can be more than one book on the "altar" but most likely just the one belonging to most members in attendance (which isn't all that different as far as my general idea goes since the metaphorical idea is always in play). I don't know if it is different during an initiation ceramony. At the least, the initiate would address the book of his choice.
end of quote

I can understand temple that it has 2 meanings but a altar is only associated with religion and church.

Oh for crying out loud, man! If Freemasonry were a religion, we would say that Freemasonry was a religion!!! Why would we deny it, if it was true?

For the record, that quote wasn't me, that was 2nd Hand Thoughts.

Originally posted by The Axeman

Originally posted by pepsi78
quote by axeman
I've read there can be more than one book on the "altar" but most likely just the one belonging to most members in attendance (which isn't all that different as far as my general idea goes since the metaphorical idea is always in play). I don't know if it is different during an initiation ceramony. At the least, the initiate would address the book of his choice.
end of quote

I can understand temple that it has 2 meanings but a altar is only associated with religion and church.

Oh for crying out loud, man! If Freemasonry were a religion, we would say that Freemasonry was a religion!!! Why would we deny it, if it was true?

For the record, that quote wasn't me, that was 2nd Hand Thoughts.

i can understand you are being honest but maybe you dont real"eyes " it axeman

altar (ôltr)
www.thefreedictionary.com...
1. An elevated place or structure before which religious ceremonies may be enacted or upon which sacrifices may be offered.
2. A structure, typically a table, before which the divine offices are recited and upon which the Eucharist is celebrated in Christian churches.

[edit on 26-10-2005 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by pepsi78

Originally posted by The Axeman

Originally posted by pepsi78
quote by axeman
I've read there can be more than one book on the "altar" but most likely just the one belonging to most members in attendance (which isn't all that different as far as my general idea goes since the metaphorical idea is always in play). I don't know if it is different during an initiation ceramony. At the least, the initiate would address the book of his choice.
end of quote

I can understand temple that it has 2 meanings but a altar is only associated with religion and church.

Oh for crying out loud, man! If Freemasonry were a religion, we would say that Freemasonry was a religion!!! Why would we deny it, if it was true?

For the record, that quote wasn't me, that was 2nd Hand Thoughts.

i can understand you are being honest but maybe you dont real"eyes

" it axeman

altar (ôltr)
www.thefreedictionary.com...
1. An elevated place or structure before which religious ceremonies may be enacted or upon which sacrifices may be offered.
2. A structure, typically a table, before which the divine offices are recited and upon which the Eucharist is celebrated in Christian churches.

[edit on 26-10-2005 by pepsi78]

I know what the word means. Fortunately for me, I also have good vocabulary skills, and I understand that words and definitions are interchangeable, given context. The Dictionary is not always the be all end all of vocabulary.

I will say that as Masons, as men, and as followers of our own individual faiths, we believe that all Wisdom and Knowledge comes from God (as did everything), so therefore, it makes sense to call the Place of Masonic Light, or Knowledge and Wisdom, an altar.

axeman if i wanted to get you on this and live you out of arguments i would of done it with tons of things like the frazes from the bible i got tons of arguments that will live you dry with out a word.
But that is not what i am looking for has it would be stupid for me to pick out stay at night and prepare such things just to win.
But i'm going to tell you something i know when i see religion i can smell it
i've been all over it i have attended diffrent cristian religions for years just has a study chatolic, ortodox , adventist ect.
My simple thing at masons is curiosity.
And maybe it's not a religion at u'r degree but really i must insist i do not rule out the top of it has a religion.
For some one to say such things when masonery is such a complex thing with many degrees, many dont even make it above the 5 degree.
You say it u'r self i search the light i want to see it but if you dont know
and u'r searching than you dont know what it will bring.
You talk from u'r expiriance of what you know but at higher degrees you dont really know what is going on and you know why because it's a secret
as long has you dont know what hapens after the 25 degree.
And i am sure and i will say it convinced cause i know none of you are 25 degree or above.

Originally posted by pepsi78

But i'm going to tell you something i know when i see religion i can smell it
i've been all over it i have attended diffrent cristian religions for years just has a study chatolic, ortodox , adventist ect.

Sniff again.

Let's use logic.

One can't unknowingly take part in a religion. A religion is a belief. You either believe or you don't.

If I don't believe in Christianity, am I Christian?
If I don't believe in Islam, am I a Muslim?
If I don't believe in Hinduism, am I a Hindu?
If I don't believe in the conspiratorial "religion" of Freemasonry then how can I follow that religion?

The only time Freemasonry is ever a religion is when those who wish to label it as such believe it to be so. And as they aren't Freemason's themselves, the whole argument is blown out of the water before it even begins.
If you ever get one, single Freemason who tells you that Freemasonry is a religion, you might have a tiny, miniscule starting point for an argument. But when every single man who is a member of the Order tells you that he does not believe that it is a religion, your argument is null and void through logic itself.