Bohemian Grove, The Owl: Not Satanic!

Originally posted by JonestownRed
Sebatwerk, If you haven't guessed already, its pretty much useless to argue with these people. As far as the majority of ATS is concerned, one is guilty until proven innocent, and its damn near impossible to prove someones innocent if the person you're trying to prove it to has bibles taped over their eyes and ears to keep any objective thoughts from getting through to them.

Thanks, I do understand what you are saying, but it seems to me that in this case it is not so much the Bible, but rather their own fears, that are not allowing them to see the immense hypocrisy of their statements.

Originally posted by JonestownRed
Sebatwerk, If you haven't guessed already, its pretty much useless to argue with these people. As far as the majority of ATS is concerned, one is guilty until proven innocent, and its damn near impossible to prove someones innocent if the person you're trying to prove it to has bibles taped over their eyes and ears to keep any objective thoughts from getting through to them.

You are the ignorant one, since you are obviously assuming, we are religious nuts. Its a pretty nice picture you painted for yourself....being one of the few "wise" persons here

I guess you, sebat and nyg are just trying to steer the lost sheeple back in line.... oh the good samaritans....what would we do without you

My whole concern here is that the few times that stories have emerged from within the grove of the secret rites and actions...
they were not good...

everything from child pornography to REAL human sacrifice of worn out sex slaves. (as per the links above)
there is also some corroboration by some of the "exiles"

so to write this off as a boys club for power players would be naive...
and to say it is just a way for them to stay in touch with the common man is down right ignorant...

the proof is that political decisions are made behind the scenes...
that bothers me... but not as much as the POSSIBILITY (only suspicious at this point) of the sickos that delve into these perversions (child porn allegations).

the reason for my concern:
the other "originally ficticious yet proven true" tale of the white house child porn ring caught me off guard before...
I WAS one of the defenders saying that there was no way that kind of a thing could happen...
the fact that I once defended these slugs of humanity makes me sick... I shall not be caught off guard again...
better to have an ounce of suspicion than a pound of ignorance...

I truly hope that sabatawerk is right... that it is just our political and industry leaders dressing up and playing elitist for a weekend... that would not be hideous... just bad...
I fear for the worse though... for all the reasons listed by Sauron and nukanuka...

If It wasn't for people like you two, it would be 9-11 everyday. Thank you for keeping us in line. Freedom is just too scary now that Cheney is out of his cave.

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
I truly hope that sabatawerk is right... that it is just our political and industry leaders dressing up and playing elitist for a weekend... that would not be hideous... just bad...
I fear for the worse though... for all the reasons listed by Sauron and nukanuka...

You know why I dismiss this stuff so easily? Because psychology has taught us that humans do not do things that they know are wrong. Only when they are able to justify them as being OK do they actually do these things... true, every once in a while someone does something that they regret, but a club like the Grove would not be able to exist for so long, with so many people doing so many things that are impossible to justify!

Deep down inside, all people believe that what they do is good for themselves and for others, otherwise they would not be doing such a thing. I just don't see how ANYONE could justify to themselves taking part in the things that you guys are assuming goes on there! Therefore, I can't be led to believe that those things would be taking place, involving so many people for so long, without anything ever surfacing by participants who regret their actions.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
You know why I dismiss this stuff so easily? Because psychology has taught us that humans do not do things that they know are wrong. Only when they are able to justify them as being OK do they actually do these things... true, every once in a while someone does something that they regret, but a club like the Grove would not be able to exist for so long, with so many people doing so many things that are impossible to justify!

Deep down inside, all people believe that what they do is good for themselves and for others, otherwise they would not be doing such a thing. I just don't see how ANYONE could justify to themselves taking part in the things that you guys are assuming goes on there! Therefore, I can't be led to believe that those things would be taking place, involving so many people for so long, without anything ever surfacing by participants who regret their actions.

I really hope you do not believe what you just wrote, but if you do there is a big problem. "Psychology has taught us that humans do not do things that they know are wrong." What psychology is this and who gave us that theory? I have never heard it and it seems to be completely the opposite of reality.

Sure, people might make excuses to justify their bad behaviors but those excuses are not because they think deep down that they are doing what it right for other people. The excuses are to take the responsibility off themself so that they do not feel bad about their actions. It has nothing to do with believing that they are helping other people.

Your attitude seems to be that you would not commit evil acts so you do not see any reason to believe that other men would commit evil acts and therefore we should trust our politicians and let them do whatever they want to do without asking any questions about their secret and private activities that involve the other leaders of the world. Does that just about sum it up? That is a very dangerous and I have to say stupid base for logic.

Originally posted by zerotime
Your attitude seems to be that you would not commit evil acts so you do not see any reason to believe that other men would commit evil acts and therefore we should trust our politicians and let them do whatever they want to do without asking any questions about their secret and private activities that involve the other leaders of the world.

You have completely misunderstood me. What I said is that people not purposely do something which they know is wrong unless they are able to justify it to themselves. If you think about it, nobody has ever committed an atrocity without what they believed was a good reason for doing so.

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by zerotime
Your attitude seems to be that you would not commit evil acts so you do not see any reason to believe that other men would commit evil acts and therefore we should trust our politicians and let them do whatever they want to do without asking any questions about their secret and private activities that involve the other leaders of the world.

You have completely misunderstood me. What I said is that people not purposely do something which they know is wrong unless they are able to justify it to themselves. If you think about it, nobody has ever committed an atrocity without what they believed was a good reason for doing so.

What about rape? What does the rapist believe is his good reason? That she had it coming? That the world owes them something?

I really do not understand the logic. Why does it even matter what excuse they use to justify the bad action? It is still bad. The excuse does not make the action good or justifiable - even if they believe it in their own warped minds.

sebatawerk, we are not so different...
I had the same ideas in regards to the white house scandal...

I thought.. NO WAY... these are respected politicians and public figures...
what a joke... I even did some two bit research and secured my position on the issue.

then i felt like crap when all the pieces started coming together to form the now infamous Lawrence King white house Child porn for votes scandal...
Even more evidence has recently immerged that makes it look like a long running program of sexual deviancy among our leaders... so I don't consider them above reproach...

I will not poo poo political scandals anymore... I will research and see...
I have not seen anything on the bohemian grove yet to make me accuse, but only to suspect... and I would like to see better access to this "playground"

if the light of truth makes some group nervous, then what are they hiding?

I didn't think they could hide naked children in the whitehouse either...
apparently there are many rooms that no one sees, and many ways to get out of the whitehouse that are not "known"
you see, they have records of a certain male prostitute, coming to the whitehouse thousands of times... and only leaving about 500 times... so the rest of the times were not checked out, due to leaving by another non documented entrance...

shame all that cockfighting ruined this discussion, we were getting somewhere for a while - seems like the thread is dead - emptied of reason - pissing contest prevailed - story of mankind really.

Originally posted by zerotime
What about rape? What does the rapist believe is his good reason? That she had it coming? That the world owes them something?

I don't know, I am not a rapist. But I do understand psychology. And I do know that people do not do things without first justifying it to themselves.

I really do not understand the logic. Why does it even matter what excuse they use to justify the bad action? It is still bad. The excuse does not make the action good or justifiable - even if they believe it in their own warped minds.

That's my point exactly. I never said it was OK. What I did say is that what you guys claim goes on at the Grove is beyond self-justification. That's why I don't believe anything like that is likely to be going on.

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
sebatawerk, we are not so different...
I had the same ideas in regards to the white house scandal...

I am not familiar with the story, so I cannot comment. But understand that I never said somethinng like "these are respectable men, they wouldn't be doing this." That's not what I meant at all.

I just mean that whether it be a respectable person or a drug-addicted criminal, we all justify our actions to ourselves before we actually go through with them. If not, then we try like crazy to justify them afterwards... or go crazy trying to. It takes a VERY deranged kind of person to do something they believe is wrong without any kind of remorse.


[edit on 19-5-2005 by sebatwerk]

One question... sebat

do you think the politicians that toyed with little boys and girls in white house back rooms could justify what they did?

that was the question that got me... maybe it gets you to...

justification for an action depends on an individuals own level of sanity...
and level of morality... ANYTHING can be justified depending on the person...

power can do some pretty sick things to people.. look at Clintons sexual addiction... so in some ways politicians are more at risk

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
One question... sebat

do you think the politicians that toyed with little boys and girls in white house back rooms could justify what they did?

Look at my post above this. I'm not familiar with the story, so I don't know... but I'm sure the individuals found SOME way to make this OK to themselves.

justification for an action depends on an individuals own level of sanity...
and level of morality... ANYTHING can be justified depending on the person...

That is 100% correct! Although I'm not sure that ANYTHING can be justified, especially not among a large group of people. Someone in there is going to realize "hey, this is just wrong!" eventually.

well, i have to say, the grand bait and switch in the sky is working wonders on the populace.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT LITTLE KIDS BEING RAPED AND PROSTITUTED BY OUR "ELECTED' LEADERS!!!!! and then, the subsequent BLACKMAIL of our 'elected' 'leaders'.
there is no grey area, here. it's really #ing evil.

and, it's NOT a rumour. once again, the media silence is deafening.

we're talking about secret pagan rites being performed by leaders who were elected because of their, 'morals' and 'religious convictions'. didn't i keep hearing it was the 'religious right', and, 'christian morals' that got the witches, oops, bushes re-elected? do you think the people from the bible belt would have voted pagan wizards into office? do you think they would support bush if they saw alex jones' video?

from my perspective, the government is one HUGE lie. it may be time for revolution, afterall. i suggest a weeklong slackfest. everyone just stops what they are doing for a week and sits around not conforming with the media's pre-scripted 'reality' enviroments.
that would be a big monkey wrench, but a complete, 'opt out' of america using magna carta law would be even better, if enough people would get onboard, errrrrr, ...offboard.



[edit on 19-5-2005 by billybob]

Originally posted by billybob
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT LITTLE KIDS BEING RAPED AND PROSTITUTED BY OUR "ELECTED' LEADERS!!!!! and then, the subsequent BLACKMAIL of our 'elected' 'leaders'.
there is no grey area, here. it's really #ing evil.

and, it's NOT a rumour. once again, the media silence is deafening.

we're talking about secret pagan rites being performed by leaders who were elected because of their, 'morals' and 'religious convictions'.

NO, we are NOT talking about that! Nobody knows! You don't know, I don't know, NOBODY here knows. So stop making assumptions simply based on how things SEEM TO YOU... unless you know something we don't?

...and watch your "f-ing" language.

[edit on 19-5-2005 by sebatwerk]

sabatwerk: here are some enlightening links.... (white house gay porn scandal) yes, these are independant papers... the reputable sources only carry the story for a week before it gets "killed"
but I assure you as many others can testify...these things have been accepted as fact for almost 10years. Just put these words in the google
Larry King (not the TV one) Jeff Gannon, white house, scandal,
warning: dont read while eating lunch...

yep... these are variations of the story... there are still connections that are just now coming out...
hunter s thompson connection
original story not updated
unusual connection to blogger

Now I was unable to find the other link that shows that the boy that disappeared over 30 yrs ago is in fact the jeff that seems to have unlimited access to the white house and CIA records...
he is connected and still alive, so either he has info stashed somewhere that will preserve his life, as well as allow him certain privledges...
the more you read, the more you can construct a very clear picture of why certain people are allowing this very connected male prostitute to have access to what he has access to.
The story keeps coming out and keeps getting buried...
I suspect it is because there are a LOT of players that are protecting the "field"
My concern is that the Grove is just an extension of the field...

I don't want to offend anyone by jumping to any conclusions on the grove, but you have to know the true history of our politicians to be able to suspect as I do.

some new photos:


external image


external image


external image


external image

Members of the class of 1912, University of California, Berkeley, California, at Bohemian Grove, August 2, 1941. Left to right, front row: Earl Warren, Roy Shurtleff, Newton B. Drury, Mila (?) Robbins, Herman Phleger.

Back row: Harold Chase, C. Nelson Hackett, Harold Fletcher, James B. Black, Joe. J. Sweet, Farnham P. Griffiths. Honorary member of Class of 1912. - Admiralty Lawyer, S. F. [San Francisco], Rhodes Scholar - Former Secretary to the President, University of California.







just collecting the data....

[edit on 19-5-2005 by nukunuku]

[edit on 19-5-2005 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
sabatwerk: here are some enlightening links.... (white house gay porn scandal) yes, these are independant papers... the reputable sources only carry the story for a week before it gets "killed"
but I assure you as many others can testify...these things have been accepted as fact for almost 10years. Just put these words in the google
Larry King (not the TV one) Jeff Gannon, white house, scandal,
warning: dont read while eating lunch...

Laz, thanks for the info. I did a search and read a few articles, including ones in rotten tomatoes and indymedia, and I'm discussing this with one friend at UCLA who's in a post-grad program in poli-sci. He had only briefly heard of this... it's pretty interesting actually. Like you said, it's bizarre that so much seems to have been covered up, and that DOES suggest that it was only ABLE to be covered up like it was because this was far-reaching.

Even though I AM skeptical that no names of politicians, aides and the like have been mentioned or even prosecuted. Surely this would have had a much bigger effect if specific people in public office were named. Who knows...

Either way, I think this is a completely different ball of was than the Grove...

Originally posted by sebatwerk

NO, we are NOT talking about that! Nobody knows! You don't know, I don't know, NOBODY here knows. So stop making assumptions simply based on how things SEEM TO YOU... unless you know something we don't?

...and watch your "f-ing" language.

[edit on 19-5-2005 by sebatwerk]

there are filters that watch the #ing language. my sentence will appear without the 'offensive' word to those who haven't paid to have the filters turned off, which you obviously paid because you want to see 'offensive' language. i only use it when VERY STRONG EMPHASIS is required.

and YES, we ARE talking about what i said we are talking about. you're willingness to turn a blind eye sickens me.

here's the smiley.....