The Timeline For the Endtimes

after reading the above garbage I found a few things I can comment about.

1.) I showed you where I got it from, whether you choose to believe it or not is something completely different.

2.) Christians don't insult you for your beliefs; trying to convert someone isn't insulting them, even though you may believe that it is insulting because christianity is 'inferior' to you.

3.) There are many prophecies of the Christ through out the Old Testament, but Isaiah immediatly comes to mind.

4.) I said the "even if some scripture is wrong" line because I know you would consider it to be wrong, whereas I do not. How about you bold that.

5.) I do know how a Non-christian acts; I used to be an athiest. I guess your psychic powers are off today.

6.) You are correct when you say my arrogance is no less than yours, but only if you mean in believing that I know some sort of "truth." However, you far at class me in being condescending towards others who I do not agree with.

7.) I do not take credit for the good I have done because I humble myself, not because I believe God has done it for me. And the count is 0-2.

That is all. Whatever else is there is just you implying that I am an idiot, and you gloating about how great you are. Have fun with that.

Originally posted by dbrandt
I certainly don't mean this in a mean way, so don't take it that way, I'm just replying. You seem to indicate that you would believe it if the word "the" was there. That doesn't make sense to me. Great is there and tribulation is there and they are even together in the sentence so I think it's quite obvious that God is talking about the great tribulation.

?
I didn't say I didn't believe anything. I was pointing out that that verse doesn't necessarily describe and event or period of time.
"The Great Tribulation" is an event. Great tribulation is just about what everyone on earth goes through. And I imagine it'll only get greater, meaning worse, as stuff starts to happen.

"out of" can mean through and it can also mean away from.

In this case it didn't mean away from. It clearly indicates these were martyrs

Now Revelation 4:1 and we have a door opened in heaven and a "trumpet" and God says "Come up Here"(the church taken to heaven).

Why did you cut off the quote?

1. After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

The voice wasn't talking to the church (hence the "After this"), it was talking to John.

Now go to Revelation 4:4 and we see first mention of the 24 elders with "white raiment" and "crowns".

The 24 elders may be representatives or representation of the whole Church, but nothing indicates he was talking about more than those 24 elders sitting around the throne.

Chap. 5

5. And one of the elders saith unto me.....

So, does this mean there are 24 parts or sections of the church and did 1/24th of the Church speak to him at once?


No where else in revelations does he use symbolism to represent a number of people.


Also, nothing indicates these 24 were raptured period, let alone before trib. And if they represent the 12 tribes and the 12 apostles, they definately went through tribulation.
He however never mentions for how long, or when the 24 started sitting around the throne. For all we know, they've always been there.

Rev. 4
Rev. 5

Originally posted by DigitalGrl
The bible does not CLEARLY state that the rapture is going to happen.

In fact..if you study the original hebrew and ancient greek, the word rapture or christians will be taken, or anything like that is ever said. It is correlated to the 144,000 interpretation.

The interpretation of 144,000 saints of Rev. 14 has been an enigma for centuries. But if scripture is taken literally concerning these men, there can only be one conclusion to who they are.

1.First they are men. "virgins who haven't defiled themselves with women"

2.Next they are firstfruits. What's a firstfruit? (Rom 8:23, James 1:18, Rev 14:4). Probably a person who has first received the gospel message, ie. contemporaries to Jesus.

and,

3. They are still living...

…. and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:23



Most often in biblical interpretation, erroneous understanding comes when one fails to see the simplicity of a passage. The true meaning flies right over the head of the scholarly and educated. If the fundamental Christian believes that Adam and his immediate descendants could live over 900 years, why is it then implausible to believe that 144,000 men could live over 2,000 years?

It is my goal in this synopsis to educate and introduce the body of Christ into understanding the realization of a body of men that has not died yet, that has been kept preserved for thousands of years, and that will be made manifest to the world shortly. I will use only contextually accurate passages from scripture to prove my thesis.

The apostle Paul, in his letter to Timothy, referred to a time in the not so distant future when he would be leaving his ministry. The almost unanimous given understanding to the reader is that Paul would be dying soon.

He states in 2Timothy 4:6: “For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.” This does not necessarily mean that he will be dying shortly. Furthermore, this cannot foretell of his death if one is to believe his following remark in verse 18 in which he stresses, “And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve [me] unto his heavenly kingdom:” This “departure” should only imply an end to the current ministry in which he endeavored. He is leaving to go somewhere, but where? In Hebrew 4, the author, which I do believe is Paul, encourages his followers to labor so they can enter into a type of rest.

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.

11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

In chapter 13, he encourages his followers to go somewhere else.

10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Concerning the Rapture

A body of believers who believe they will be carried away and taken out of the world prior to cataclysmic destruction should fully understand the passages they support and hold as their foundation. Paul specifically uses the word “we” when describing the body of individuals who will be taken up following the initial group.

1Thessalonians 4

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


From the base understanding of his letters, Paul is clearly suggesting that: 1)He will not die. And 2)He will be preserved; body, soul and spirit.

Matthew, Mark and Luke; the 3 Witnesses

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Matthew 24:34

Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. Mark 13:30

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Luke 21:32

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of God coming in his kingdom. Matthew 16:28

And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. Mark 9:1

But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. Luke 9:27

Concluding what Jesus meant by seeing the Son of God coming in his kingdom, that it was fulfilled by his transfiguration 6 to 8 days afterward, is ludicrous. Why would he state that there would be men standing next to him that wouldn’t die in a week or so? He wouldn’t. He didn’t. He definitely implied that some of his disciples would live a VERY, VERY long time. Jesus implies that the beloved disciple John could possibly remain until he came back.

John 21

20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?

21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what [shall] this man [do]?

22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me.

23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee?

The Firstfruits

A firstfruit in biblical terms is defined as a person who has first received salvation by believing in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The NT mentions a group of people called firstfruits. They are also witnesses of seeing Jesus Christ in the flesh, during his ministry.

Revelation14

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

James, in his epistle, addressing the 12 scattered tribes of Israel, calls them firstfruits as well.

James 1

18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Paul addresses the firstfruits in Roman 8.

23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

Earlier in verse 11 of that same chapter, he reveals the power behind the capability to live a long time, namely the Holy Spirit.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


A Nation Born at Once?

The book of Isaiah hints of this group of God’s people being born at once. How can this happen?

Isaiah 66

8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? [or] shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

To this day, there are 144,000 men being preserved in body, soul and mind beneath the holy city of Jerusalem. They are in the hiding place. One day soon they will break forth and manifest themselves to the people of the world. They are God’s elect people. They are blameless. Paul, John and many other biblical figures are part of this mighty army.

Isaiah 37

31 And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward:

32 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall do this.

Micah 2

12 I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of [the multitude of] men.

13 The breaker is come up before them: they have broken up, and have passed through the gate, and are gone out by it: and their king shall pass before them, and the LORD on the head of them.

Behold the 144,000 saints of God. They will come out of hiding and engage in the final stages of this world. They will testify of the Lord and his holy messenger. They are the foundation to the holy city. They will attract all nations from the ends of the earth to come to Jerusalem. They are the “fathers” spoken of in Malachi 4:6. I have now introduced you to them. You are their children. Behold your fathers.



[edit on 29-4-2005 by Plumbo]

The Book of Enoch is not accepted canon, yet it is found quoted in numerous NT books. Revelation is by far the book utlizing the most plagiarism.


Enoch 39: Those who sleep not bless Thee: they stand before Thy glory and bless, praise, and extol, saying: "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of Spirits:

Rev 4:8 and they rest not day and night, saying Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty
…..

Enoch 39: they stand before Him and bless and say: 'Blessed be Thou, and blessed be the name of the Lord for ever and ever.'

Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever.
….

Enoch 40 And after that I saw thousands of thousands and ten thousand times ten thousand, I saw a multitude beyond number and reckoning, who stood before the Lord of Spirits

Rev. 5:11 and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number…stood before the throne…
…..

Enoch 40: And on the four sides of the Lord of Spirits I saw four presences, different from those that sleep not,

Rev4:6 and round about the throne were four beasts…
…..

Enoch 46: And there I saw One who had a head of days, And His head was white like wool,… This is the son of Man who hath righteousness, With whom dwelleth righteousness, And who revealeth all the treasures of that which is hidden,

Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool… 1:17 And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, fear not; I am the first and the last…1:19 write the things which thou hast seen.

Enoch 14: And the most holy ones who were 24 nigh to Him did not leave by night nor depart from Him.

Rev 4:4 and round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting,…


Explaining revelation:

Chapters 1,2,3 ,4 5 & 7 are relative to the churches at the end of the 1st century and their fights.

Chapter 12: Birth of Israel & Egypt the Red Dragon the 1st beast.

Chapter 13: Egypt/Idolotry passes its power to Rome the great conqueror the 2nd beast.

Chapter 6: The first 6 angels are attacks against Israel.

Chapters 8 : Catastrophes against Rome. 7th seal with 7 plagues The fire ----Vesuvius


In short:

The 24 elders are elders from the OT; the 7 lamps is the great menorah; the four beasts are the arch-angels; the White horse represents the righteous Jews in genesis out to claim the world as their God-given kingdom; then persecuted by the red horse, the Egyptians who supposedly were so nasty to them; followed by the black horse, the Assyrians; and the pale horse, the Romans. The two witnesses are Peter and Jesus; the mark of the beast is the roman currency forced on the Jews; the woman clothed in the sun is Mary; the seven heads represent the Caesars of Julio-Claudio lineage; mother of harlots is Nero’s mother who commanded power while he was a child and therefore could not take the throne; Babylon is Rome; the scorching of heat; darkness; pain; sea of fire; etc. etc, all relates to the earthquakes, burning of Rome and eruption of Vesuvius.

In this day and age it is high time that people stop leaning on old fables and indulge in some intelligent research to understand what this book is about. The grand wishes contained in revelation is nothing but a recalibrated version of Daniel, Isaiah and Enoch to fit the times. The latter being muddled by the additional thoughts of the Ebionites and Essenes and Pharisees, finds itself represented in the NT by the very same sects who were walking around Judea touting doom and gloom and hoping for a messiah to save them from the dreaded Romans. There would be no mystery to the beasts of Revelation if people would just take the time to read Enoch especially the parable of the bulls. But they obviously do not wish to be enlightened, for what fun is there in not perpetuating a doomsday theory imposed by God, a theory which will forever be advanced until today’s religious beliefs take their places in the defunct line alongside those of OT days.

yea...I still do not agree with the theory of the rapture. Also..i agree that the book of enoch is not a credible source.

The book, apparently as a Greek language text, was known to, and quoted by, nearly all Church Fathers.

There was some dispute about whether the Greek text was an original, Christian production, or whether it was a translation from an Aramaic text. The chief argument for a Christian author was the occurrence of references to the Messiah as the Son of Man. But the majority opinion clearly favours a 2nd century BC Jewish authorship, linking the prophecies in the text to the politics of the Maccabean revolt.
With the possible exception of Tertullian, the Church Fathers deny the canonicity of the book, and some even considered the letter of Jude uncanonical, because it refers to an apocryphal work.

The book was discredited after the Council of Laodicea in 364. Subsequently, the Greek text was lost. The latest excerpts are given by the 8th century monk George Syncellus.


The catholic church does not acknowlede this book and since im a (missori synod) lutheran i dont acknowledge the aporapha at all anyways as credible content. I only go by the 66 books of the bible. So quoting things from enoch to me....is not something that will gain any validity to your claims in my opinon

Kind Regards,
Digital Grl

wow, this thread is one mega copy and paste -a-thon.....still waiting for a timeline with, well, you know, DATES !

666 will apear as a bar code hence most people will not recognise it, strangly enought if you look at a bar code today it his three sets of two bars begining middle and end although it has no value when scanned each represents a 6!



[edit on 29-4-2005 by Valkir]

Originally posted by Valkir
666 will apear as a bar code hence most people will not recognise it, strangly enought if you look at a bar code today it his three sets of two bars begining middle and end although it has no value when scanned each represents a 6!



[edit on 29-4-2005 by Valkir]

That is very interesting. If they want to barcode me they can suck a duck.

My last post on the rapture, lookes like a quote but I hope people read it anyway. More evidence(from my view anyway) that the rapture is before the official tribulation period.

King James
Acts 15:14-17 Take out a people for His name indicates the rapture, then God turns His attention toward Israel(tabernacle of David in vs. 16) Then the word residue in vs. 17 means left down or left behind

2 Thessalonians ch. 2 Pretty much the whole chapter has rapture info. vs1 gathering together to be with God,

vs.3 the "falling away" means "departing" and surely means people abandoning the truth of Christ alone for salvation but it has a dual application for the church departing this earth.

vs 7-8 lets us know the Holy Sprirt is what is restraining and holding back the anti christ and evil. When the Holy Sprirt is removed then evil can come to it's fullness. God said He would never remove His Spirit from believers, and He would never leave us nor forsake us, so when He goes we have to go or God would be a liar.

Matthew 16:18 talks about the gates of hell not prevailing against the church(the church is true believers in Christ alone, for salvation, of any denomination, not the catholic institution). So the church will not be prevailed against. Go to Revelation 13:7, during the tribulation the anti christ will make war with the saints and OVERCOME them. Go to Daniel 7:21, there we are told the anti christ will make war with the saints and PREVAIL against them. So it appears the church is a very distinct group of believers. Like I said before all believers are saints but not all saints are in the church.

In Luke 21:36 the word escape can have a meaning of VANISH(sounds like the rapture to me) before the tribulation from the rest of the verse.

Collossians 3:12 tells us believers are the ELECT. Matthew 24:22,24 and Mark 13:20 both tell us that the ELECT will have the their days shortened.
Those days are shortened because we are not here on the earth, we have been taken to heaven.

Also these verses
Luke 21:28
Revelation 3:10
1 Thessalonians 5:9
Titus 2:13

I see plenty of Biblical evidence for believers going to be with the Lord before the tribulation.

Plus God has already done it with Enoch so that tells us God can do it and people can escape terrible times.

Although I feel it is overdone in terms of evidence for both sides, I believe that the rapture would happen AFTER the tribulation. I say this because the bible talks about even the most elect being fooled. How are there the most elect if none of them believed to begin with? But that is really a question that doesn't contribute to either side.

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
I say this because the bible talks about even the most elect being fooled. How are there the most elect if none of them believed to begin with?

It says in Matthew 24:24 that the deception and false signs and wonders will be so great that the very elect would be deceived..........IF IT WERE POSSIBLE.....it's not possible, we are not here we have been taken to be with Christ.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
I say this because the bible talks about even the most elect being fooled. How are there the most elect if none of them believed to begin with?

It says in Matthew 24:24 that the deception and false signs and wonders will be so great that the very elect would be deceived..........IF IT WERE POSSIBLE.....it's not possible, we are not here we have been taken to be with Christ.

hmmm... good point. But I won't rely on the it not being the end if the rapture hasn't taken place but all other signs are there.

I don't know about the Satansrapture website, but I know that David Eells speaks the truth about the end times. I had some very specific prophetic dreams that I later found by chance on his website www.americaslastdays.com. The exact same dreams confirming by the Holy Spirit that David teaches the truth.

The MP3 audio files that David produces and distributes on his site free of charge have made the Word of God alive to me as no other source ever has. They speak to end time events, the sovereignty of God, the foreshadowings and allusions to later events in old and new testament books. The sum total of the work that the Lord has given to David point to a level of engineering of the Word far beyond what we can conceive.

I recommend to everyone to spend their time listening to David's MP3 files and stopping the playback at each Bible verse and read it in context after asking the Lord to guide you into all truth, to teach you the truth in all things. You will be amazed as the Word opens up to you as never before over time. It is flat amazing to me. David has no theological degrees and will be the first to tell you that God uses those considered foolish to confound the wise and degreed.

For those who question me, Jesus Christ is the Son of God who left His heavenly glory to become a man, born of a virgin, who walked among as fully man and fully God. Jesus died on the cross, a horrible death, and took on Himself to become a curse to that we might receive the blessings and grace of God. Jesus rose from the dead on the third day and lives victoriously sovereign, seated at the right hand of the father, until all enemies are placed under His feet. Jesus is come in the flesh now in us as we yield our lives to Him to allow Him to take over and bring His kingdom to this earth.

Spend your time on www.americaslastdays.com. You will find the truth there.

Originally posted by managerie


For those who question me, Jesus Christ is the Son of God who left His heavenly glory to become a man, born of a virgin, who walked among as fully man and fully God. Jesus died on the cross, a horrible death, and took on Himself to become a curse to that we might receive the blessings and grace of God. Jesus rose from the dead on the third day and lives victoriously sovereign, seated at the right hand of the father, until all enemies are placed under His feet. Jesus is come in the flesh now in us as we yield our lives to Him to allow Him to take over and bring His kingdom to this earth.

One more question, How are a person's sins atoned for.

The sins of all of those who believe in Jesus Christ and believe Jesus Christ (take Him at His word) are paid for by Jesus death on the cross. All of the sin, for all time, for all believers, is paid for and atoned for by Jesus sacrifice. To put a price or pennance on the grace of God paid for by Jesus is to put a finite value on rebellion against our Holy Lord. Jesus has made it clear that you accept His offering for your sins by faith for your life in Him for free, or not at all. There can be no price attached to it. "Freely you have received, freely give" refers to forgiveness, the favor of God, the power of the Holy Spirit, the health of our bodies, and material provision for our needs.

Originally posted by DigitalGrl
yea...I still do not agree with the theory of the rapture. Also..i agree that the book of enoch is not a credible source...


The book was discredited after the Council of Laodicea in 364. Subsequently, the Greek text was lost. The latest excerpts are given by the 8th century monk George Syncellus.

If Enoch is a fake, then so too is Revelation. I agree, it was, and by default so is Revelation.
If Enoch is a fake then so too is the book of Jude; 14;15 quoting Enoch 1:9. I agree, it was, and by default so is Jude.
If Enoch is a fake then so too is 1 John 1:7 & 2:8 quoting Enoch 92:4 & 58:5. I agree, it was and so too would be all attributed to John.
If Enoch is a fake then so to is Paul with Romans; 8:38& 10:13 quoting Enoch 61:10 & 48:7. and with Ephesians 1:9 quoting Enoch 49:4. I agree, and so too would attributed to Paul.

I do not agree however that Enoch initially was written in the Anno Domini years, since when one studied the various texts in Enoch, it is very clear that many amendments were made to reflect a Christian doctrine.

We have no idea what was contained in the Secrets of Enoch as banned by the Laodicea council in the 4th century Ace, but I can be certain that it was heavily redacted after it was in fact written by a Jew, for the Jewish cause, and no earlier than the 4th century BCE when it was determined that a solar year was in fact 365 days., the very time that the Jews adjusted their calendars for an extra month. Further, Laodicea is no measurement since that council also banned: The apostles creed; Ephesians along with the psalms of Solomon.

In short, I agree with the council, except it just stopped short of banning the whole lot.

If Enoch was a fake then so to was Jesus who fashioned himself after Isaiah and Enoch. And the fact that John, Paul and Jude would be quoting bogus history, this leaves only Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Luke never met Jesus and supposedly wrote according to the other three, and since John was included and he quoted Enoch, Luke now joins the lineup of fallacious gospels. That leaves Matthew and Mark. And since Matthew is found with dialogue purporting to be from Peter’s Apocalypse after Jesus’ death, that eliminates either Peter or Matthew. Now we are left with Either Matthew and James or Peter and James as believable. We can accept James only if we believe that he actually had a change of heart of Jesus’ death. I don’t, so that leaves Matthew. Since Matthew recounts events from Peter and John which he himself was not privy too, he is guilty of collusion, and therefore his too is discounted.

That leaves none of the authors as credible.

Just read the Book of Enoch,
Fascinating!!!

Though I can clearly see fraudulant tampering, I am convinced that the foundational groundwork was authentic!

Too bad those menacers had to fool with it.

But, in order to fully appreciate it, you have to believe we live inside a cavernous earth, for starters...

That goes for the rest of the bible, too.
Credible enough to me anyway.(If you read between the lines.)

Like i said..its your opinon and i do not believe that by NOT believeing the book of enoch to be credible makes the bible NOT credible. so i will continue to believe in the original 66 books of the bible as i always have. however, this forum is supposed to be about the end times based on biblical text. So if you want to debate the revelance of the bible lets start a new forum..or go speak in one that has already been started.


Kind Regards,
Digital Grl

[edit on 10/01/2004 by DigitalGrl]

well said DG.
ps I like your signature line.

Originally posted by Plumbo
well said DG.
ps I like your signature line.

thanks