Why don't you believe in God?

a reply to: asabuvsobelow

It's not that we are "dumb", it's more to the point that we as humans buy into ideas and ideologies that limit our scope of the natural universe.

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: chr0naut

I hate to be blunt and straight to the point, but with your logic a creator needs to be created, and we enter a chicken and the egg scenario.

That is a quite temporally constrained thought.

It cannot explain uncaused causation, infinitesimals, and infinities.

In my previous posts, all that I surmised that happens 'outside' of time, happens both instantly and forever. Neither simultaneously or separately. Trying to pin it down to a timeline is our human foible, because that is how we live, think and communicate.

We know such things must be real apart from our generalized conception, because there is math for infinities and infinitesimals.

Hence my earlier post where I already stated that you either believe the universe is eternal or you believe an eternal supernatural being exists. I guess pick one, because I'm not going to tell you how to interpret the universe, and you can't tell me either.
I don't believe in pushing ideology on people, and I simply don't believe in "gods". Therefore I am atheist, not theist.

It is not possible for our part of the observed universe to be eternal under the observed physics. To do that, we'd have to venture beyond the observed and probably, the observable.

If we do that for cosmological origin theories, why not do exactly the same for theologies? It's like people some accept one as reasonable excursion beyond the limits of objectivity, but not the other.

a reply to: BrotherKinsMan

When i was a kid i believed because my grandparents and the school told us so.

When i grew up, and saw some stuff, and the world for what she, and i are, i have to wonder.

So on that note, I'm on the fence.

Ile entertain the possibility of a creator or creator force.

Just not one that demands our attendance, or cares much what happens to us one way or another.

Ive not lost faith in the possibility of suchper say, but again i have seen some ""stuff"".

And if there is a God in heaven who loves us unconditionally, i have to question how he/she/it could allow some of the things i have seen in this world to be allowed to take place.

I wonder also, and maybe that is the point.

a reply to: BrotherKinsMan


Ummm…actually…the one you call God…isn’t the first…

The one you call God…displays every human character flaw…is not a perfected and pure entity…is prone to anger…wrath…jealousy…vindictiveness…and often calls upon his fave race of miscreants to…rape…pillage…burn…slay…and generally create mayhem…where none need exist…is the God only of this world…is in fact…Samael…

I don’t consider such an imperfect being…Lord…or Father…

Rather…I hold that the first Father…who is pure…is perfect…is the antithesis of everything the one you call God is…is the one worthy enough for me to worship…to honor…to champion…to claim lineage to and from…

A being formed of…by…and through…love…a perfect and pure being would never exhibit the childish and destructive nature so often described in the Bible…in the Torah/Tanakh…and in the Koran…

I could and can only consider a pure Spirit of love…worthy of devotion…worthy of prayer…worthy of honor…


You asked…

I answered…






YouSir

originally posted by: nerbot

originally posted by: AllisVibration
a reply to: BrotherKinsMan

Why be concerned with god, when god isn’t concerned with us?

Speak only for yourself, please. You are not a God.

Apologizes if this has been stated before. There are certain religious beliefs where this is dogma.
Crom, as Conan's god is the one I'm most familiar with.

I understand your (assumed) rebuttal, that it's literature and not a religion. . .
What makes literature?
What makes religion?

originally posted by: devilhunter69
I see no evidence of a god considering how much evil there is in the world. If god created us then why is he letting us destroy ourselves ?
Religion is the root cause of every war - prove me wrong ?

USA revolutionary war. You have been proven incorrect.

I will agree the majority of deaths from wars recorded, are likely do to holy wars.

Christian teachings would account for "free will" being the reason for evil in the word.

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: asabuvsobelow

It's not that we are "dumb", it's more to the point that we as humans buy into ideas and ideologies that limit our scope of the natural universe.

Ummm...actually...it's more that we buy into the hubris of our own cognitive superiority...that we think the entirety of what is...is bundled into the fraction of what can be observed...and partially...fleetingly...known...



YouSir

a reply to: chr0naut

What if God is just another man made construct to conquer the things we failed to understand?

It seems that under monotheism the gods were a mean bunch at times, weather gods occasionally ruined crops, lust gods created strife, river gods swept away everything... Etc etc.

Maybe we created The God to keep it all in check. It's quite human to keep building up a narrative only to overcome it with understanding and it's also human to doggedly hold onto false narratives too. I've wondered a few times if we'll look back on the concept of God only to say it's finally conquered. Because conflict is a very serious infliction with humans. We simply don't live in the present and don't have a simple enough mind for it. We remember, we think of tomorrow and we procrastinate whereas animals simply aren't so conflicted... Yet many would accuse them (the animals) of being soulless.

Yet we're the ones making things up, often with dire consequences. That's not to say God/god's aren't real. Carpets are real and are often made of plastic, our creativity is rather dangerous if you really think about it, it's quite possible the danger of creativity extends to the supernatural and even the paranormal.

It's quite difficult to disregard how we got to the point of understanding the concept of a creator without disregarding the creator itself. Teachers often demand that you show your "workings out" which is at conflict with the idea of belief wouldn't you think? Minus points for faith? Yet... The human mind has leanings, the world around us that we've made keeps pointing in directions and the subconscious is a powerful thing. I guess what I'm saying is if I had a time machine I'd go back and whisper to myself "tell the teacher she/he shouldn't be punishing you for their thickness" since human stuff is fairly easy to understand.

Shock and horror... The creator is an AI program and humanity IS special. Or maybe we're just highly creative nutters, maybe it's the same thing. At least with gods we had respect. Everything is fair game with the notion "I'm doing it for God" isn't it? Just musing on the concepts of a creator here, without a scalpel, a telescope and a very fine tooth comb...

I believe there is a God ... an intelligent creator of all.

I just don't believe that God is what 'they' say He is.

I don't think we understand God at all. Not one bit.

originally posted by: YouSir
a reply to: BrotherKinsMan


Ummm…actually…the one you call God…isn’t the first…

The one you call God…displays every human character flaw…is not a perfected and pure entity…is prone to anger…wrath…jealousy…vindictiveness…and often calls upon his fave race of miscreants to…rape…pillage…burn…slay…and generally create mayhem…where none need exist…is the God only of this world…is in fact…Samael…

I don’t consider such an imperfect being…Lord…or Father…

Rather…I hold that the first Father…who is pure…is perfect…is the antithesis of everything the one you call God is…is the one worthy enough for me to worship…to honor…to champion…to claim lineage to and from…

A being formed of…by…and through…love…a perfect and pure being would never exhibit the childish and destructive nature so often described in the Bible…in the Torah/Tanakh…and in the Koran…

I could and can only consider a pure Spirit of love…worthy of devotion…worthy of prayer…worthy of honor…


You asked…

I answered…

YouSir

I believe you have assigned my belief to an existing set of belief.

The One I serve is exactly as you claim, for One to be worthy of worship for you.

i don't believe a single god because every god is truth for the era who was scheduled so i believe in the light
i'm half pentacostale and shinto

There are many ways to open the Doors of Perception. They don't call it the GOD molecule for nothing. We are not confined to 3 dimensions.

originally posted by: RAY1990
a reply to: chr0naut

What if God is just another man made construct to conquer the things we failed to understand?

That is literally a type of argument from ignorance. Clearly there are many man-made constructs about all sorts if immaterial things like mathematical paradigms. Is mathematics 'not real' because it describes the conceptual?

And was a God of the gaps really what happened, historically, or did 'God concepts' arise well before science and reasoning were systematized?

I would posit that humans have a near instinctual impetus towards spirituality, that those gaps in knowledge became evident in the process of striving for a reason for things. That basic nature of our human 'spiritual' drive is a hint of us being God-directed from the outset.

It seems that under monotheism the gods were a mean bunch at times, weather gods occasionally ruined crops, lust gods created strife, river gods swept away everything... Etc etc.

Monotheism means only one God. Polytheism is multiple Gods. Polytheism implies that we might pit one spiritual ally against another to influence events, and that then is the major source behind magical thinking. But with monotheism, there is no alternate authority or power - there is only God.

Maybe we created The God to keep it all in check. It's quite human to keep building up a narrative only to overcome it with understanding and it's also human to doggedly hold onto false narratives too. I've wondered a few times if we'll look back on the concept of God only to say it's finally conquered. Because conflict is a very serious infliction with humans. We simply don't live in the present and don't have a simple enough mind for it. We remember, we think of tomorrow and we procrastinate whereas animals simply aren't so conflicted... Yet many would accuse them (the animals) of being soulless.

All nature is "red in tooth and claw", predator and prey. You can't blame our conceptions of deity for our conflicts, because we are 'natural' creatures, an apex predator as well.

Yet we're the ones making things up, often with dire consequences. That's not to say God/god's aren't real. Carpets are real and are often made of plastic, our creativity is rather dangerous if you really think about it, it's quite possible the danger of creativity extends to the supernatural and even the paranormal.

The constant argument that is used is to assign all human conflict to 'the religious', and specifically, warfare. Yet wars are fought over resources and controlling power. There hasn't really been any war fought purely over religious faith.

Usually, both sides claim that "God is on their side" as a type of motivational self-propaganda, but they aren't fighting for the dominance of their religion, because they already believe their religion is dominant and true, and that others are false.

It's quite difficult to disregard how we got to the point of understanding the concept of a creator without disregarding the creator itself. Teachers often demand that you show your "workings out" which is at conflict with the idea of belief wouldn't you think? Minus points for faith? Yet... The human mind has leanings, the world around us that we've made keeps pointing in directions and the subconscious is a powerful thing. I guess what I'm saying is if I had a time machine I'd go back and whisper to myself "tell the teacher she/he shouldn't be punishing you for their thickness" since human stuff is fairly easy to understand.

Shock and horror... The creator is an AI program and humanity IS special. Or maybe we're just highly creative nutters, maybe it's the same thing. At least with gods we had respect. Everything is fair game with the notion "I'm doing it for God" isn't it? Just musing on the concepts of a creator here, without a scalpel, a telescope and a very fine tooth comb...

God is creative. God does not have to create but the fact that there is a creation, shows the 'playfulness' of the Creator.

a reply to: chr0naut

God is creative. God does not have to create but the fact that there is a creation, shows the 'playfulness' of the Creator.

That's what I thought when GOD anointed trump.

religionnews.com...

www.reuters.com...

originally posted by: lilzazz
a reply to: chr0naut

God is creative. God does not have to create but the fact that there is a creation, shows the 'playfulness' of the Creator.

That's what I thought when GOD anointed trump.

religionnews.com...

www.reuters.com...

There is the story of a little black girl sitting outside of an evangelical mega-church in the Southern end of the Bible belt of the USA. Jesus appears beside the girl and says asks why she is so sad. So she says, "Mister, they won't let me in there". Jesus smiles and says "Yeah, I know what that's like, they won't let me in there either".

Also, anointing is the process of pouring oil over the head of the anointed. If God had done that, I wonder why he didn't finish the job by also putting the match to him?

a reply to: BrotherKinsMan

I just don't believe in your "god".

Have you ever wondered why every organized religion on the planet attempts to remove it's followers from nature and put them inside a man made structure while they practice their religion?

Muslims have mosques, Christians have churches, Judaism has synagogues, Buddhism has temples, Catholicism has cathedrals, etc, etc, etc.

My personal belief is the universe in a sense is God and we are one of the ways the universe(god) explores and expresses itself. It's not about what religion or god is better, It's about what's universally right and wrong, good and evil, light and dark. Maintaining a balanced on this planet and among the stars.

Science has shown us energy can never dissappear. It can only change it's form. Therefore the energy, spirit, soul whatever you want to call it inside us that grants us a consciousness most likely exists.

If you apply these concepts across the board it's really the only philosophy that starts to make any sense. Life, death, rebirth, it's the one universal constant and to think we are somehow not tied to this same system is absurd. Hence the need for churches, mosques, etc.

One starts to see this for themselves and loose the need for a controlled organized religion if they spend enough time alone with the natural world.

The universe abhors a vacuum, you can't have an experience of NOTHING. When we die we can only have another experience like this one. There isn't some other plaine of existence where the essence every living human to ever live and die is stored forever.

a reply to: chr0naut

That is literally a type of argument from ignorance.

I could literally say the same thing about believing in gods/god and spirituality. Science has the human condition mapped fairly well. We know what makes us tick whether it's sensations, chemicals, emotions, indoctrination etc etc.

Humans have a higher mind in comparison to most if not all other creatures known to us and I could equally say that spirituality is an abnormal trait and is something to be diagnosed rather than declare. We do loads of weird stuff because we're domesticated weirdos. That said I'm not saying there isn't a God.

Monotheism means only one God.

I know. I failed to change it to polytheism when I edited what I wrote before I posted.

Polytheism implies that we might pit one spiritual ally against another to influence events, and that then is the major source behind magical thinking. But with monotheism, there is no alternate authority or power - there is only God.

There's a lot more to ancient belief systems and pantheons than that. No matter where I look I see highly intelligent metaphorical explanations of reality, especially when it comes to aspects of the human. Under Monotheism the rule of thumb is to temper aspects of the human and that's probably why people have only looked back at history with a better understanding in the last few hundred years as reason threw the shackles on monotheistic religions off. Again, I'm not saying there isn't a God.

Some of those old faith systems were very well designed and thoughtful, it wasn't all magic woo woo and crazy stories.

All nature is "red in tooth and claw", predator and prey. You can't blame our conceptions of deity for our conflicts, because we are 'natural' creatures, an apex predator as well

We're also domesticated and freakishly divergent. Simpler creatures do their thing (eat then sex) and sleep or die. There's plenty of other creatures that simply aren't killing and hunting 24/7 and they tend to have a higher mind as we'd call it. Simply put, there's a time for everything and the same applies in nature. There's plenty of co-operation going on.

Anyway my main point with that part of the post was about the human emotional system which is a highly important regulator within us, we have to conceptualise things otherwise we'll be troubled and somewhat useless in comparison to our potential. In other words the past occupies the present and wrecks havoc on the future. Animals don't have that issue. A deer can be chased by a bunch of wolves then it'll be chewing on some plants 5 minutes later happier than Larry in his Speedos... Humans? There's a good chance of PTSD and a whole other bunch of troubles if they get chased down by a pack of wolves. The human mind and potentially a handful of other animals are just different when it comes to trauma. We also tend to be the ones who are a bit sick in the head in comparison to the rest. We love our recreational experiences and violence. Ask the dolphins.

The constant argument that is used is to assign all human conflict to 'the religious', and specifically, warfare. Yet wars are fought over resources and controlling power. There hasn't really been any war fought purely over religious faith.

I didn't say religion starts wars. Humans start wars and often have their excuses. If my beliefs are in conflict with your beliefs we can either avoid each other or seriously risk physical conflict. I'd honestly say it's being a bit too simplistic to dismiss any type of religion as not starting wars. There's cultures that didn't have a concept of ownership who'd happily partake in mass violence. There's cultures where their only 'god' was the concept of ancestry, often reason enough to fight too. We probably wouldn't be able to ascribe a religion to them but their thoughts and conceptualisation is on the way.

Thinking starts wars, thinking starts religions too, it's quite possible thinking starts gods and even existence itself.

God is creative. God does not have to create but the fact that there is a creation, shows the 'playfulness' of the Creator.

That's opinion or faith... Maybe it's (God) just crunching some numbers.

No, I don't believe the universe is a computer simulation. In terms of a concept it is though, or as I like to stupidly say "same difference". I also do believe in a creator although I'm obviously going to find disagreement with people who try to define the thoughts in my head with their own thoughts and feelings.

originally posted by: RAY1990
a reply to: chr0naut

I could literally say the same thing about believing in gods/god and spirituality. Science has the human condition mapped fairly well. We know what makes us tick whether it's sensations, chemicals, emotions, indoctrination etc etc.

Humans do have a sense of the numinous. We can stimulate the brain with TMS and cause these types of sensations, but why would we have such neural configuration in the first place? How could natural selection select for these configurations and what evolutionary process could they serve?

Why would we have religious content in near death experiences? The organism is dying, there is no reason for consciousness to be prolonged. The whole process of dying also usually takes time and palliative care reveals very strange and consistent behavioural and conceptual changes even up to months before people pass. Those people cannot reproduce anymore, and as their death is inevitable, and they are a burden on their carers, there is no evolutionary advantage or reason for the whole process.

Then there is our innate ethical and moral codes which we know are not learned and are sometimes at odds with our own survival and comfort. These are better explained in religion than in psychology or biology.

The scientific process can observe such things, but cannot explain them. Science can only verify things that are entirely natural and measurable and there are many theoretical and hypothetical ideas attached to science, which are not directly evidenced, but science has no tools to operate outside of natural laws. It is a domain which science cannot touch.

Science also reveals contradictions, and discoveries which break previous paradigms, and so it cannot be thought of as an unassailable source of truth and the only determinator of fact.

Humans have a higher mind in comparison to most if not all other creatures known to us and I could equally say that spirituality is an abnormal trait and is something to be diagnosed rather than declare. We do loads of weird stuff because we're domesticated weirdos. That said I'm not saying there isn't a God.

Spirituality is entirely normal to the human population. Very few people have ever been atheist. Atheists are still a minority, despite the advancements of humanist movements.

Human languages are infused with ideas of the spiritual. You cannot discuss atheism or philosophy without utilizing wording based upon spiritual beliefs.

There's a lot more to ancient belief systems and pantheons than that.

Yes there is a lot of shamanistic equation of something superficially appearing like something else, implying that control over one thing is control over another (the Voodoo-doll principle). I see the same principle being applied in a lot of pseudo-science.

Pantheons also suffer from there being a 'domain of the gods' where they cohabit, and which has rulesets that dominate and control their actions and interactions.

- and there are a lot of crazy metamorphoses, such as some archaic chieftain somehow becoming a god through some illogical or undisclosed process, and associated promotions and demotions of entities, and human/god hybrids through sexual liaisons with numerous rankings.

- and inanimate and unconscious things like clouds or the moon being 'gods' and acting consciously?

No matter where I look I see highly intelligent metaphorical explanations of reality, especially when it comes to aspects of the human. Under Monotheism the rule of thumb is to temper aspects of the human and that's probably why people have only looked back at history with a better understanding in the last few hundred years as reason threw the shackles on monotheistic religions off.

All morality is to "temper aspects of the human". There are humans who kill for power they feel it gives them. There are masochists who take things too far. There are people who do regrettable things in a moment of insanity. Are we sure that we want to embrace every aspect of our 'humanity' in everyone at all times?

Again, I'm not saying there isn't a God.

Which is a reasonable enough thing.

Some of those old faith systems were very well designed and thoughtful, it wasn't all magic woo woo and crazy stories.

Yes, but the majority of it was. If you were to remove the magic, woo-woo and crazy stories from it, there wouldn't be much reasonable stuff left.

We're also domesticated and freakishly divergent. Simpler creatures do their thing (eat then sex) and sleep or die. There's plenty of other creatures that simply aren't killing and hunting 24/7 and they tend to have a higher mind as we'd call it. Simply put, there's a time for everything and the same applies in nature. There's plenty of co-operation going on.

Anyway my main point with that part of the post was about the human emotional system which is a highly important regulator within us, we have to conceptualise things otherwise we'll be troubled and somewhat useless in comparison to our potential. In other words the past occupies the present and wrecks havoc on the future. Animals don't have that issue. A deer can be chased by a bunch of wolves then it'll be chewing on some plants 5 minutes later happier than Larry in his Speedos... Humans? There's a good chance of PTSD and a whole other bunch of troubles if they get chased down by a pack of wolves. The human mind and potentially a handful of other animals are just different when it comes to trauma. We also tend to be the ones who are a bit sick in the head in comparison to the rest. We love our recreational experiences and violence. Ask the dolphins.

I didn't say religion starts wars. Humans start wars and often have their excuses. If my beliefs are in conflict with your beliefs we can either avoid each other or seriously risk physical conflict. I'd honestly say it's being a bit too simplistic to dismiss any type of religion as not starting wars. There's cultures that didn't have a concept of ownership who'd happily partake in mass violence. There's cultures where their only 'god' was the concept of ancestry, often reason enough to fight too. We probably wouldn't be able to ascribe a religion to them but their thoughts and conceptualisation is on the way.

Thinking starts wars, thinking starts religions too, it's quite possible thinking starts gods and even existence itself.

That's opinion or faith... Maybe it's (God) just crunching some numbers.

Why would God "crunch some numbers"? A monotheistic God would define the outcome (and would also be omniscient). A calculating machine is not a monotheistic God as it implies a domain where mathematics works in a particular way, and which directs how it operates.

No, I don't believe the universe is a computer simulation. In terms of a concept it is though, or as I like to stupidly say "same difference". I also do believe in a creator although I'm obviously going to find disagreement with people who try to define the thoughts in my head with their own thoughts and feelings.

I believe that the way observation modifies wave-particle outcomes, and embedded error correcting code in the underlying structure of matter, indicates that the universe only fully renders to the observer, and is set up to have corrective redundancy in case of spurious error.

a reply to: YouSir

A being formed of…by…and through…love…a perfect and pure being would never exhibit the childish and destructive nature so often described in the Bible…in the Torah/Tanakh…and in the Koran…

If I may quote Tao Te Ching, "when people see things as good, evil is created". Thus the bible is like a mirror. If we examine with intellect we will see evil. If we examine with our heart we will see love. That explains why you see books like the Koran as a horror show whereas Dali Lama called the same book, a book of love.

a perfect and pure being would never exhibit the childish and destructive nature so often described in the Bible

Certainly not. So consider this hypothetical ... If the named God is movement. The unnamed God is rest. You recognize every human character flaw in the named because the named is you (I AM). Experiencing all there is, to know one self, in the tree of "knowledge" of good and evil. Also called the lake of fire. The fire and brimstone, purifying all into gold. With no dust being harmed in the awakening of you.

originally posted by: lilzazz

originally posted by: Bluntone22
a reply to: BrotherKinsMan

I prefer not to worship whatever moon god some men made up to control the people.

That being said, religions are in general teach pretty good value systems but the churches always screw that up..😂

What America needs is to implement Project 25 soon as possible a bring back America to being a Christian Nation again.

Nooo!
Are you sure you don’t mean product 19? I loved that.
God would not take that away from us, not a loving god, perhaps a spiteful one that enjoyed screwing with, and demanding fealty from its creations.
Religion is used by the “strong minded” to control the weak minded. Old as time, and the first form of politics.