How can atheism have morality?

a reply to: cooperton

How many people do you imagine have been slain, sacrificed, burned, drowned, flayed alive, crucified, starved to death, and even hung drawn and quartered, in the name of God/Gods throughout recorded history?

Considering all the crusades, holy wars, jihads, and purges, that have taken place.

Or the likes of the Spanish Inquisition or colonisation of the Americas.

The numbers are apt to be rather staggering and not very palatable, to say the least.

Which in no way excuses the likes of the horrendous acts of depravity Stalin or Mao perpetrated.

Surprised you failed to mention the Jewish holocaust which resulted in the systematic genocide of approximately six million European Jews.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: cooperton

How many people do you imagine have been slain in the name of God/Gods throughout recorded history?

A lot. But not as many as in the name of erradicating God, as shown by Stalin and Mao.

Considering all the crusades, holy wars, jihads, purges, and the likes of the Spanish Inquisition or colonization of the Americas.

The main difference is that Christian ideology teaches to turn the other cheek and to love your enemy - this is the opposite of condoning imperialism. Any venture to do so is going against Christ's teachings. Atheistic regimes on the other hand are going by the guidebook of 'survival of the fittest', and it makes logical sense according to atheist precepts to go and conquer and destroy any dissent.

a reply to: cooperton

A lot. But not as many as in the name of erradicating God, as shown by Stalin and Mao.

Your only saving grace there really is that the world population did not reach a 1 billion people till around the early 19th century, or my bet is it would have been a whole lot more given the big fellow's penchant for blood sacrifice and attendance.

The main difference is that Christian ideology teaches to turn the other cheek and to love your enemy

Does it through really?

Do you actually believe that's how Christianity and the Holy Roman Church of Saint Peter operate, or has done throughout the span its existence?

Any venture to do so is going against Christ's teachings.

Well again see the Vatican and what they have gotten up to in the name of Christ.

Atheistic regimes on the other hand are going by the guidebook of 'survival of the fittest', and it makes logical sense according to atheist precepts to go and conquer and destroy any dissent.

Just your opinion through and not actual fact.

Was Genghis Khan an atheist?

How about Alexander or Julius Caesar?

They are all religious men, and look at the works and doom they perpetrated.

What atheist precepts are you talking about, please elaborate and be specific?

You see Atheism itself is not a belief system, or a set of ""precepts"".

But rather the lack of belief in gods or deities as any dictionary will clearly inform you.

a reply to: FarmerSimulation

Correct.
We have always been thieves, liars and murderers.

Well for once we look to be in agreement.

But with the tremendous capacity for evil that we have.

Also comes the capacity for great empathy and goodness.

"What a piece of work is a man!"

originally posted by: andy06shake
"The main difference is that Christian ideology teaches to turn the other cheek and to love your enemy"

Does it through really?

Do you actually believe that's how Christianity and the Holy Roman Church of Saint Peter operate, or has done throughout the span its existence?

A church that is not living according to Christ would technically not be Christian. I know the "no true Scottsman" fallacy or whatever, but Christ's ideology opposes the idea of trying to take over the world by force.

“Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him. “For all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Are you not aware that I can call on My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?"

"Any venture to do so is going against Christ's teachings."

Well again see the Vatican and what they have gotten up to in the name of Christ.

People have historically corrupted the establishments that they are perpetuating. When a scientist misrepresents science that doesn't mean science is to blame

originally posted by: andy06shake


You see Atheism itself is not a belief system, or a set of ""precepts"".

But rather the lack of belief in gods or deities as any dictionary will clearly inform you.

Yeah but the lack of belief in God serves as a trunk of a tree to branch off into all sorts of 'logical' conclusions based off the idea that there is no God.

I feel like this topic escalated from "how can atheists have morality" which has been answered, to "whose morality is more dependable" which is subjective at best and simply pissy at worst.

a reply to: cooperton

A church that is not living according to Christ would technically not be Christian. I know the "no true Scottsman" fallacy or whatever, but Christ's ideology opposes the idea of trying to take over the world by force.

“Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him. “For all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Are you not aware that I can call on My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?"

Cheers for what appears to be a sermon or scripture, the sentiment is appreciated.

Even though im not quite sure what you are going on about.

Or how it addresses or applies to the likes of what the Holy Roman Church of St Peter has perpetrated in the name of God.

People have historically corrupted the establishments that they are perpetuating.

Who, what person?

Sounds like you have someone in mind.

When a scientist misrepresents science that doesn't mean science is to blame:

When a scientist misrepresents science he or she is not burned at the stake, beheaded, or abused and murdered, in some other nasty horrific manner.

Can Christianity claim the same?

What was it happened to the likes of Spinoza or Jacques de Molay never mind all the rest?

Nothing good was it?

Yeah but the lack of belief in God serves as a trunk of a tree to branch off into all sorts of 'logical' conclusions based off the idea that there is no God.

I can't see how that makes sense, can you provide examples?

Logic is good cooperton, but not exactly synonymous with religion thats a given.

originally posted by: andy06shake

Cheers for what appears to be a sermon or scripture, the sentiment is appreciated.

Even though im not quite sure what you are going on about.

How Christ explicitly condemned the use of force to establish his kingdom.

Or how it addresses or applies to the likes of what the Holy Roman Church of St Peter has perpetrated in the name of God.

Because it shows they were acting antithetically to Christ's teachings.

"People have historically corrupted the establishments that they are perpetuating."

Who, what person?

Sounds like you have someone in mind.

All churches have imperfect people, so probably every church ever. With that being said, people are often trying their best, it is a difficult task to resemble Christ.

When a scientist misrepresents science he or she is not burned at the stake, beheaded, or abused and murdered, in some other nasty horrific manner.

Can Christianity claim the same?

Christ's example with the woman caught in adultery is the archetype on how to deal with misdoings.

"Yeah but the lack of belief in God serves as a trunk of a tree to branch off into all sorts of 'logical' conclusions based off the idea that there is no God."

I can't see how that makes sense, can you provide examples?

If I believe there is no God, and no enduring state of our consciousness, then this life has no enduring meaning or consequence. This can quickly lead to further justification for pretty much anything.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: cooperton

How many people do you imagine have been slain, sacrificed, burned, drowned, flayed alive, crucified, starved to death, and even hung drawn and quartered, in the name of God/Gods throughout recorded history?

Considering all the crusades, holy wars, jihads, and purges, that have taken place.

Or the likes of the Spanish Inquisition or colonisation of the Americas.

The numbers are apt to be rather staggering and not very palatable, to say the least.

Which in no way excuses the likes of the horrendous acts of depravity Stalin or Mao perpetrated.

Surprised you failed to mention the Jewish holocaust which resulted in the systematic genocide of approximately six million European Jews.

Add the holodomor which estimated that 20m-80m people slaughtered, tortured and starved to death by the bolsheviks.
Who are still around today executing an even bigger culling today

a reply to: cooperton

How Christ explicitly condemned the use of force to establish his kingdom.

How did that work out for him in the end here on Earth?

Probably according to plan if the Bible is to be believed.

All churches have imperfect people, so probably every church ever. With that being said, people are often trying their best, it is a difficult task to resemble Christ.

I hate to break it to you buddy but Man is an imperfect animal, hence our works, and churches, are just as imperfect as their creators.

Christ's example with the woman caught in adultery is the archetype on how to deal with misdoings.

The man hung around with 12 other dudes, to be honest, he probably did not know much about adultery or women for that matter.

I suppose there was Mary Magdalene but your book doesn't paint her in the best of lights now does it?

If I believe there is no God, and no enduring state of our consciousness, then this life has no enduring meaning or consequence. This can quickly lead to further justification for pretty much anything.

We give life meaning ourselves cooperton.

You don't need an imaginary friend to help you buddy, or hold your hand, unless you are 5 years old and still afraid of the dark.

We are here for a good time cooperton, not a long time, best make hay, so to speak, while the sun shines, and all that jazz.

I am away for my dinner now mate beef olives, mash, peas and asparagus tonight.

But again all the best, ile pop back later and play if the Mrs lets me loose. LoL

originally posted by: TzarChasm
I feel like this topic escalated from "how can atheists have morality" which has been answered, to "whose morality is more dependable" which is subjective at best and simply pissy at worst.

I tend to agree with your analysis.
I know many people who are family oriented that exhibit more Christian based ideals in how they carry themselves than many practicing Christians, including myself that obviously, to me, serve mammon.
I personally embrace this dichotomy as a challenge to my own beliefs and seek to walk the walk so in times of trouble(on the horizen), I will endure the shock and be on a firm foundation when truly tested.
And I know it will not be easy.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: cooperton

How Christ explicitly condemned the use of force to establish his kingdom.

How did that work out for him in the end here on Earth?

Probably according to plan if the Bible is to be believed.

All churches have imperfect people, so probably every church ever. With that being said, people are often trying their best, it is a difficult task to resemble Christ.

I hate to break it to you buddy but Man is an imperfect animal, hence our works, and churches, are just as imperfect as their creators.

Christ's example with the woman caught in adultery is the archetype on how to deal with misdoings.

The man hung around with 12 other dudes, to be honest, he probably did not know much about adultery or women for that matter.

I suppose there was Mary Magdalene but your book doesn't paint her in the best of lights now does it?

If I believe there is no God, and no enduring state of our consciousness, then this life has no enduring meaning or consequence. This can quickly lead to further justification for pretty much anything.

We give life meaning ourselves cooperton.

You don't need an imaginary friend to help you buddy, or hold your hand, unless you are 5 years old and still afraid of the dark.

We are here for a good time cooperton, not a long time, best make hay, so to speak, while the sun shines, and all that jazz.

I am away for my dinner now mate beef olives, mash, peas and asparagus tonight.

But again all the best, ile pop back later and play if the Mrs lets me lose. LoL

If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
Some of us are here to have a good time.
Some of us are sojourners passing through on our way home.
"I am but a beggar looking to show others where to find bread" Martin Luther

originally posted by: andy06shake

We give life meaning ourselves cooperton.

You don't need an imaginary friend to help you buddy, or hold your hand, unless you are 5 years old and still afraid of the dark.

Chill bro I know that we as children of the Creator have vast input in what we want to create here on earth. There is much more permissibility in Christ than is popularly believed.

We are here for a good time cooperton, not a long time, best make hay, so to speak, while the sun shines, and all that jazz.

My new years resolution is to dial back the fun times a little bit temporarily lol. I think you all would be surprised to meet me in person.

I am away for my dinner now mate beef olives, mash, peas and asparagus tonight.

That sounds delicious

But again all the best, ile pop back later and play if the Mrs lets me lose. LoL

ATS is also my go-to activity when my mrs is on screen time

a reply to: FarmerSimulation

"Never argue with an idiot. You'll never convince the idiot that you're correct, and bystanders won't be able to tell who's who." Mark Twain.

a reply to: cooperton

Im eating buddy.

Address later if thats ok.

a reply to: andy06shake

A Christian seeks, love, truth, forgiveness, faith in grace.
These we are judged by.
Jesuit influence and Roman catholicism is not the standard but the pursuit of mammon and dominance over others and certainly not concerned of the fruits of the Holy Spirit, which is proof of living for Christ.
When you point out these contradictions we agree with it as being profane, but not as it being the ideal.
It is a poser faith used for power, not freedom from sin.
Come out of her my people, that ye may live.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: FarmerSimulation

"Never argue with an idiot. You'll never convince the idiot that you're correct, and bystanders won't be able to tell who's who." Mark Twain.

Self reflection is a good start

a reply to: FarmerSimulation

A mirror is your best bet there methinks.

a.w.f.k.

originally posted by: FarmerSimulation

originally posted by: TzarChasm
I feel like this topic escalated from "how can atheists have morality" which has been answered, to "whose morality is more dependable" which is subjective at best and simply pissy at worst.

I tend to agree with your analysis.
I know many people who are family oriented that exhibit more Christian based ideals in how they carry themselves than many practicing Christians, including myself that obviously, to me, serve mammon.
I personally embrace this dichotomy as a challenge to my own beliefs and seek to walk the walk so in times of trouble(on the horizen), I will endure the shock and be on a firm foundation when truly tested.
And I know it will not be easy.

A challenge to our respective ideology is the most we can hope for, to test the underpinnings and see how much shaking it takes to break the narrative. No philosophy is immune to "trial by fire"

...as opposed to "right fighting" which is, more often than not, largely or entirely conceited in its motives.

Morality has nothing to do with religion, hell you only have to look at the amount of priests who do unspeakable things to minors to know that morality is down to the individual and not their faith or lack of faith. We learn the principles of good and bad at a young age, not from a book but from parents and role models.