How can atheism have morality?

originally posted by: AllisVibration

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: AllisVibration

From my experience, regardless of what a person believes or doesn’t believe, people act out of self interest. When someone does act selflessly, when asked why they they did so, they say they didn’t give it a moments thought.

What we think and what we do rarely align. We are emotional creatures ruled by our desires and fears. Those that overcome such are few and far between.

Yes. We are basically social animals.

"Protect your pack/tribe"

For no other reason than their welfare.

External sky guy not needed,

That mentality stems primarily from protecting one’s own welfare, within every tribe/pack and social construct there exists the pecking order, none of that is selfless behaviour.

Selfless behaviour is the foundation of genuine ethics or morality, it is only the selfless conduct of the spiritual adept’s over millennia that has set an example for others to follow. A good parent will recognise it as unconditional love.

It's social evolution.

No need for a supreme being.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: AllisVibration

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: AllisVibration

From my experience, regardless of what a person believes or doesn’t believe, people act out of self interest. When someone does act selflessly, when asked why they they did so, they say they didn’t give it a moments thought.

What we think and what we do rarely align. We are emotional creatures ruled by our desires and fears. Those that overcome such are few and far between.

Yes. We are basically social animals.

"Protect your pack/tribe"

For no other reason than their welfare.

External sky guy not needed,

That mentality stems primarily from protecting one’s own welfare, within every tribe/pack and social construct there exists the pecking order, none of that is selfless behaviour.

Selfless behaviour is the foundation of genuine ethics or morality, it is only the selfless conduct of the spiritual adept’s over millennia that has set an example for others to follow. A good parent will recognise it as unconditional love.

It's social evolution.

No need for a supreme being.

Yet wokism is the opposite of selfless behavior and the epitome of selfish self serving self applied victim hood at societies cost.
Selflessness is proof of God.
Wokism is proof of democracies flaws in turning selfishness into mob rule

a reply to: FarmerSimulation

Wokism is evidence (to me) of social manipulation and the conditioning of the youth and masses. Forced upon everyone until it's the norm, and the battle is lost. Just give it a couple generations. But being selfless doesn't require a God and not being selfless does not mean one is woke.

If that's what you were implying.

a reply to: neoholographicpart2

Same way deism can. Natural laws.

That's a flase dilemma to argue morality can't arise without dogma. Social animals don't need godforms for empathy. Or for kindred bonds and self regulation.

Thou shalt not steal may be more rooted in a urine-marked tree than people want to accept.

I believe the divine has NO INTERACTION WITH NATURE. It's eventual design is manifested as nature, but no direct connection is necessary. It runs itself from very simple rules.

Yet I can argue for a morality based on things that happen naturally.

Like Elephants. All across their wild habit there are reports of people that respected or helped elephants being later repaid in some way. They'll even Bury humans in their cemeteries.

No God taught elephants kindred and death rites, yet there they are, with love as deep as humans. All that was needed was empathy and mutual respect. Likely related to being an animal that nurses it's young.

Whales and dolphins too. They'll save stranded people and protect them from sharks.

My opinion is that the most beautiful part is that it DIDN'T NEED a dogmatic mandate to happen. Only a hostility-driven need for survival strategies, like empathy and respect.

a reply to: Boomer1947

Moral development was researched pretty heavily by Harvard psychologist Lawrence Kohlberg and his colleaguesin the 1950s and 1960s and they found that moral development in humans follows distinct stages, similar to how cognitive development follows distinct stages as well--as described by psychologist Jean Piaget. This happens across all cultures and over recorded history. In other words, human history has many, many different religions, but only one common pattern of moral development. This makes it much more likely that our shared concepts of moral behavior evolved over time in a particular direction because that behavior has a very strong survival value. Religions come and go and disagree with each other about the details, but the common understanding of what is moral behavior pretty much remains the same. This says that human moral reasoning is more or less intrinsic in the human psyche and religions just come along and incorporate it into whatever god stories they make up at any particular time and location--because the gods in those stories are almost always anthropomorphic to begin with.

This has been my take on it for a long time now, especially the bolded part. Groups, tribes, and societies don't last very long once the rules and traditions that kept them cohesive start decaying. History is replete with examples.

originally posted by: FarmerSimulation

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: AllisVibration

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: AllisVibration

From my experience, regardless of what a person believes or doesn’t believe, people act out of self interest. When someone does act selflessly, when asked why they they did so, they say they didn’t give it a moments thought.

What we think and what we do rarely align. We are emotional creatures ruled by our desires and fears. Those that overcome such are few and far between.

Yes. We are basically social animals.

"Protect your pack/tribe"

For no other reason than their welfare.

External sky guy not needed,

That mentality stems primarily from protecting one’s own welfare, within every tribe/pack and social construct there exists the pecking order, none of that is selfless behaviour.

Selfless behaviour is the foundation of genuine ethics or morality, it is only the selfless conduct of the spiritual adept’s over millennia that has set an example for others to follow. A good parent will recognise it as unconditional love.

It's social evolution.

No need for a supreme being.

Yet wokism is the opposite of selfless behavior and the epitome of selfish self serving self applied victim hood at societies cost.
Selflessness is proof of God.
Wokism is proof of democracies flaws in turning selfishness into mob rule

Wokism is acceptance of oppression.

Not everyone was free to do and be to the best of their abilities.

"Polite Society" -- basically white northern Europeans made laws of oppression -- to keep anyone not acceptable to them "down".

originally posted by: Annee
Wokism is acceptance of oppression.

And in the dealing out of oppression.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer

"Wokism is acceptance of oppression"

And in the dealing out of oppression.

I see it often where the bullied becomes the bully

originally posted by: Annee

"Polite Society" -- basically white northern Europeans made laws of oppression -- to keep anyone not acceptable to them "down".

A lot of white northern europeans are also on the S@#% end of the stick. All the early settlers and their family lineages are, or at least were, the big hitters in the American economy. Imagine your family line having an extra 200 years to establish themselves here, and all the land they would possess. But most of regular white europeans are still on payroll trying to get by like everyone else.

I will still try to fight for it, but this country may just be a run-away train.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: FarmerSimulation

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: AllisVibration

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: AllisVibration

From my experience, regardless of what a person believes or doesn’t believe, people act out of self interest. When someone does act selflessly, when asked why they they did so, they say they didn’t give it a moments thought.

What we think and what we do rarely align. We are emotional creatures ruled by our desires and fears. Those that overcome such are few and far between.

Yes. We are basically social animals.

"Protect your pack/tribe"

For no other reason than their welfare.

External sky guy not needed,

That mentality stems primarily from protecting one’s own welfare, within every tribe/pack and social construct there exists the pecking order, none of that is selfless behaviour.

Selfless behaviour is the foundation of genuine ethics or morality, it is only the selfless conduct of the spiritual adept’s over millennia that has set an example for others to follow. A good parent will recognise it as unconditional love.

It's social evolution.

No need for a supreme being.

Yet wokism is the opposite of selfless behavior and the epitome of selfish self serving self applied victim hood at societies cost.
Selflessness is proof of God.
Wokism is proof of democracies flaws in turning selfishness into mob rule

Wokism is acceptance of oppression.

Not everyone was free to do and be to the best of their abilities.

"Polite Society" -- basically white northern Europeans made laws of oppression -- to keep anyone not acceptable to them "down".

Wokeism is oppression by acceptance.

Dumbing down and seeking a free ride is not pursuing anything more that a lazy excuse in ideology.
"Polite Society" as you call it is just a precursor of yours to justify tearing down what is not acceptable to your current ideology.
It has nothing to do with selfless behavior as you first attempted at in claiming woke social chaos is evolving into social cohesion, which it is not.
It is quite the opposite in application and divisive to its core as all identity politics is designed to do.

See how far you got from trying to hijack selflessness as your woke evolution?
You basicly went from claiming selfless behavior is the result of evolution and in the next post you claim white northern Europeans are oppressors, even making laws to oppress others.

You are all for selflessness as long as you can take from others?
Please, enlighten us to these oppressive laws by white northern Europeans that were designed to keep anyone not acceptable to them "down"? What people are you referring to? Khazars?

A supreme being may not exist as a separate entity in itself. But if we all are interconnected. The awareness in one's self, might be an eye that belongs to us and that supreme being. With those that can actually feel empathy. Experiencing a leaking of segmentation between their local and that greater consciousness. Experiencing the pain of others as their own pain.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Annee

"Polite Society" -- basically white northern Europeans made laws of oppression -- to keep anyone not acceptable to them "down".

A lot of white northern europeans are also on the S@#% end of the stick. All the early settlers and their family lineages are, or at least were, the big hitters in the American economy. Imagine your family line having an extra 200 years to establish themselves here, and all the land they would possess. But most of regular white europeans are still on payroll trying to get by like everyone else.

I will still try to fight for it, but this country may just be a run-away train.

My 5th Great-Grandfather arrived at the courthouse in Philidelphia, PA -- Sep 1753 -- to Take the Oath of Allegiance to the Province and State of Pennsylvania.

Pennsylvania Deutsch -- northern/central European.

a reply to: neoholographicpart2

The Constitution, a wonderful document, also based on religious tenets, states that freedoms exist as long as it never infringes on the rights of another individual.

a reply to: DBCowboy

So, those oppressed by laws — denied the right to be weren’t infringed upon?

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: DBCowboy

So, those oppressed by laws — denied the right to be weren’t infringed upon?

I could cite you the Bill of Rights to address the issues, but you may already be aware of it.

a reply to: neoholographicpart2

Here is a question...

Are you sure, that God a moral being?

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: DBCowboy

So, those oppressed by laws — denied the right to be weren’t infringed upon?

I could cite you the Bill of Rights to address the issues, but you may already be aware of it.

Another time.

Don’t wanna stray to far off topic.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: AllisVibration

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: AllisVibration

From my experience, regardless of what a person believes or doesn’t believe, people act out of self interest. When someone does act selflessly, when asked why they they did so, they say they didn’t give it a moments thought.

What we think and what we do rarely align. We are emotional creatures ruled by our desires and fears. Those that overcome such are few and far between.

Yes. We are basically social animals.

"Protect your pack/tribe"

For no other reason than their welfare.

External sky guy not needed,

That mentality stems primarily from protecting one’s own welfare, within every tribe/pack and social construct there exists the pecking order, none of that is selfless behaviour.

Selfless behaviour is the foundation of genuine ethics or morality, it is only the selfless conduct of the spiritual adept’s over millennia that has set an example for others to follow. A good parent will recognise it as unconditional love.

It's social evolution.

No need for a supreme being.

I never said there was, what’s with the straw man? As for social evolution, it looks more like social devolution to anyone paying attention. People are more materialistic than ever, more nihilistic than ever, and more self absorbed than ever.

In the ancient world the notion that God didn't exist didn't even enter into the conversation. Everyone understood he did. Before the flood for example the garden of Eden still existed. Anyone who wanted to could walk over and see the angels set up to block entrance to it:

"So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life."-Genesis 3:24.

And even after the flood the real history of what happened during that time become part of many myths and legends of the ancient world their gods and demigods.

But as several here have stated cultures overall tend to have a sense of what is right and wrong without having the law given by the God of the Bible. Paul explains it this way:


"For all those who sinned without law will also perish without law; but all those who sinned under law will be judged by law. For the hearers of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the doers of law will be declared righteous. For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused. 16 This will take place in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare."-Romans 2:12-16.

So God has put a sense of right and wrong into humankind. It is built into our DNA. We instinctively know when something is wrong. For example, abortion is considered a right and good in today's society. Yet many women after getting one feel intense feelings of instinctive guilt that they didn't even realize existed within them. Where did this sense of morality come from? God built it into their DNA. It is natural to love family members and protect them.

Just because false religion exists, and people abuse others in God's name doesn't give them an excuse to not search for God their Creator. And he is there and promises that he will draw close and answer all those who call on him in truth in faith and honesty.

The theory of evolution degrades the human, puts him on the plane of animals, and then was used to excuse away colonialism. Darwin said for example that the higher races would eventually subjugate and eradicate the lower races. Hitler used the evolution theory to try to mass genocide whole nations of people in Europe during WWII.

Jesus said "happy are those conscious of their spiritual need." He then said he was the mana, the bread, that fell from heaven. And in resisting the temptation of Satan the Devil he stated that man must not live on bread alone but on every utterance coming forth from Jehovah's mouth at Matthew 4:4 quoting Deuteronomy 8:3.

Jehovah's laws and statues and judicial decisions found in the Bible are like a cleansing bath that sanctifies a person before Jehovah when applied in their life. They get the true sense of what is right and wrong. And when they do it they are righteous in God's eyes and will live by their righteousness. But even people without law will be judged according to their conscious decisions.

But even God knows that an entire society can become so degraded that the people may view themselves as pure when they are wallowing in filth:

"There is a generation that is pure in its own eyes
But has not been cleansed from its filth."
-Proverbs 30:12.

"But you will say: 'The way of Jehovah is unjust...' Is it my way that is unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust?"-Ezekiel 18:25.

"Woe to those who say that good is bad and bad is good,
Those who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness,
Those who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe to those wise in their own eyes
And discreet in their own sight!"
-Isaiah 5:20-21.

originally posted by: neoholographicpart2
I often hear moral arguments from atheists but atheism can't be moral.

You are right it can't, it is just an idea, concept or belief.

Atheist's, on the other hand, can fall anywhere on the spectrum, just like professed religious people.

It is what it is.