How can atheism have morality?

originally posted by: Xtrozero
What other form of morality do you suggest?

In my mind, I think morality could be likened to AI machine learning. Over the course of human existence our brains learned what was more rewarding. What was "good" and what was "bad". Not just to the individual but society too. Morals evolved and as man has always been spiritual, naturally got intertwined with various belief systems.

I like to pull up parts of the Bible where in my mind the actions or directions of God don't align with the character he's often described to be. The thing is I understand those things in context. That often being, that's just how things were done back then unfortunately (the Old Testament stuff). The world was different then.

Seems to me the Israelites wrote their God to fit their world views of the time. Later Jesus came along and it's like a 180, and none of that Leviticus 20:13 stuff. The message changed. It was good news indeed. The nature of God changed and evolved with the times. Like Gods and Godesses of many cultures did.

So how could morals come directly from God? Even if so, then which set?

Anyway, like I said before, I think morality could be likened to AI machine learning and evolved along with our intellect. I'd also say it's subjective at the end of the day. Because arguments can be made to justify certain actions.

We'd probably agree murder is immoral. But are there any conditions that could be met for you to justify the ending of another life? Or steal away the wife of an enemy soldier you just slayed, to be used as a vessel to have your children? What justification do you personally need to own another human being as property?

For some it's a God, and things that would normally seem immoral, aren't. Justifications are made. I was told on here once that God told his armies to take those captive war wives because it was doing them a favor. They had just lost everything and had nowhere to go, so by taking them, they were giving them a new life with better oppurtunities.

So I obviously don't think morals come from any divine source because God isn't very moral in my eyes. Funny thing though, I can't say God didn't influence my morals. Since I used to be Christian I learned a lot about Jesus and his message.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer

In my mind, I think morality could be likened to AI machine learning.

Genuine question: do you think AI could be created by random chance? Or would it require a designer?

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: HKMarrow

ETA: and what of the "enduring mental effects" of having your whole family killed, your head shaved, and made to be thier killers sex slave?

What would they do with a Nazi virgin who didn't subscribe to the Nazi ideology? Would she be super upset that her old totalitarian regime was stopped? Or would she gladly accept the people who put an end to the madness? To be married was not just a physical marriage, but a spiritual marriage, an acceptance of an ideology. Those who weren't married were still considered innocent.

It's some deep stuff.

Well, this first assumes that the child would find fault with her family's ideology. That's a pretty big assumption, to begin with. The next thing to consider is that any brothers of her's would also be killed, older or younger.

There's also the assumption that there was some kind of "madness" going on in these places to begin with. And that said madness would rival your family being killed, and yourself kidnapped.

I don't recall the bible mentioning any "madness" going on. The main point of contention was idolatry. Worshipping of idols.

a reply to: cooperton

Wouldn't be very artificial if it created itself.

I wonder if all this was created, sure. But I reject the idea that any of the creator gods I've read about are responsible for it. All the narratives reflect the cultures and people of the time. Beliefs and cultures evolve and borrow from each other.

Where did it all come from? I don't know. That could never be answered in full, imo.

If there is a "God" my opinion is it would fit into the natural world, built into the fabric of reality. Maybe there's more to consciousness then we understand. Not to mention the properties of space and time, or the quantum level of things.

originally posted by: cooperton
Of course not, I would know that isn't Christ. Christ specifically said to turn the other cheek to violence. Because I know Christ's philosophy, I would know that isn't Christ talking.

The hypothetical stated that you know beyond any doubt that the direction was coming from God. You may not understand, and feel it does not align with his philosphy. But God works in mysterious ways, and there must be a good reason he asks this of you. You have no doubt this comes from the Lord. Do you have faith and trust in him, enough to follow his commandment? Or more trust in your own moral compass?

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer

originally posted by: cooperton
Of course not, I would know that isn't Christ. Christ specifically said to turn the other cheek to violence. Because I know Christ's philosophy, I would know that isn't Christ talking.

The hypothetical stated that you know beyond any doubt that the direction was coming from God. You may not understand, and feel it does not align with his philosphy. But God works in mysterious ways, and there must be a good reason he asks this of you. You have no doubt this comes from the Lord. Do you have faith and trust in him, enough to follow his commandment? Or more trust in your own moral compass?

How would you know for certain, that this act would NOT align with his philosophy? Isn't Abraham praised for almost sacrificing his son?

Isn't it written, that only faith can please God?

What exactly, did Jesus teach, as a philosophy?

ETA, this is a pretty good hypothetical you presented, WakeUpBeer.

originally posted by: HKMarrow
What exactly, did Jesus teach, as a philosophy?

Jesus turned the other cheek. But there was that one time when he ran into a temple waving a scourge around, flipping over tables.



Allegedly.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer

originally posted by: HKMarrow
What exactly, did Jesus teach, as a philosophy?

Jesus turned the other cheek. But there was that one time when he ran into a temple waving a scourge around, flipping over tables.

Allegedly.

But see, that's not even his philosophy. He preached the "kingdom of heaven/God" and based the other things he said off of that. But even the "kingdom of heaven" itself is part of a bigger picture. So, I for one, wouldn't be so quick to assume that "God would never..." That's a cop out to me...

a reply to: HKMarrow

Agreed, completely.

Unless of course a rainbow is involved somehow.

originally posted by: daskakik
From people. I know you want to say religion but that was what I said in the post you said you refused to read. Man created religion, so the original source will always be man.

Be a little nicer and I'll read it. Of course, man-made it, so do you think religion has influenced our morals?

That is why I mentioned rap lyrics earlier on. They believe in god but they also are part of a gang.

They might not be an atheist, but I don't think they believe in their religion. If there was some Kool-Aid that I believed was poisoned would I still drink it?

Just like old school mobsters went to church, got married in church and made sure their kids were baptized and had their first communion.

Cosplayers...lol I think true believers work to be good, they see it as their duty to, others lack faith, but play as if they do for social reasons.

The number of believers might be lower today but there is still a lot.

It's enough to influence society a good deal. What is it 70%+ of Black kids today are born into a single-mother home and the dad is nowhere to be seen, and it's not like the mother is bringing much to the table either. Blacks were much better off in the 60s...sad

It's not just that one group either as we can see it all over, but it is more pronounced for them.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
Be a little nicer and I'll read it. Of course, man-made it, so do you think religion has influenced our morals?

No need, I repeated what I said there. Man made religion, so the source is man and of course it influenced morals, but not that same ones worldwide, since not everyone follows the same religion.

They might not be an atheist, but I don't think they believe in their religion.

That was the point, amoral religious people.

Cosplayers...lol I think true believers work to be good, they see it as their duty to, others lake faith, but play as they do.

Yes, it was another example of the same point.

It's enough to influence society a good deal. What is it 70%+ of Black kids today are born into a single-mother home and the dad is nowhere to be seen, and it's not like the mother is bringing much to the table either. Blacks were much better off in the 60s...sad

It's not just that one group either as we can see it all over, but it is more pronounced for them.

But is that a religious reason?

originally posted by: cooperton

So still your argument has remained unchanged. Amino acid formation is acceptable and you agree it has natural causes but amino acid polymerization seems to have come out of the blue therefore it has supernatural causes.

Can you name me some of the physical and biochemical processes that don't have natural causes? Because they don't teach it at school or university level and it looks like you have some revealed knowledge that nobody possesses apart from creationists.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
Seems to me the Israelites wrote their God to fit their world views of the time. Later Jesus came along and it's like a 180, and none of that Leviticus 20:13 stuff. The message changed. It was good news indeed. The nature of God changed and evolved with the times. Like Gods and Godesses of many cultures did.

Atheists pretty much bring up the Old Testament as their examples, but kind of forget the New Testament changed it all up a good deal. We went from an angry vengeful God to one that loves and forgives.

So how could morals come directly from God? Even if so, then which set?

I never said morals came from God, I said it must have come from religion for two main reasons. One is that people have been following religions for 1000s of years and the vast majority of the world is religious. This provides a lot of time for those morals to dig deep into every one of us including our laws and legal system. The second part is faith is an extremely strong tool to use to drive those morals in like hard cement. As I said before no one recites Kant, but they do the bible all the time.

We'd probably agree murder is immoral. But are there any conditions that could be met for you to justify the ending of another life? Or steal away the wife of an enemy soldier you just slayed, to be used as a vessel to have your children? What justification do you personally need to own another human being as property?

Not too long ago you could kill another man who disrespected you. Even today I bet more people see killing another person as a viable action for many reasons other than self-defense.

Funny thing though, I can't say God didn't influence my morals. Since I used to be Christian I learned a lot about Jesus and his message.

The reason why this post is at 67 pages is early on I suggested that religion influenced morals... lol's not something to say to the atheists here, as I saw.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Venkuish1

So you are believing that Jesus existed? What are the historical facts for his existence?

It's 2024 AD because it is that many years since he came. Our entire calendar is based around Him lol.

The calendar is a construct around a character that may have not existed at all.

Can you show me the evidence Jesus Christ is a historical person?

Even if he was a real historical person where is the evidence he is the son of God the creator of the universe. You seem (and other fellow creationists and religionists) to be going down the rabbit hole and there is no end in your journey.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
The hypothetical stated that you know beyond any doubt that the direction was coming from God.

Christ established the law and we're not supposed to kill anyone, if God wanted someone dead it wouldnt be through me.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
The reason why this post is at 67 pages is early on I suggested that religion influenced morals... lol's not something to say to the atheists here, as I saw.

Haven't seen the whole thread but I'm an atheist, and I didn't disagree with anything you just said.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
Seems to me the Israelites wrote their God to fit their world views of the time. Later Jesus came along and it's like a 180, and none of that Leviticus 20:13 stuff. The message changed. It was good news indeed. The nature of God changed and evolved with the times. Like Gods and Godesses of many cultures did.

Atheists pretty much bring up the Old Testament as their examples, but kind of forget the New Testament changed it all up a good deal. We went from an angry vengeful God to one that loves and forgives.

So how could morals come directly from God? Even if so, then which set?

I never said morals came from God, I said it must have come from religion for two main reasons. One is that people have been following religions for 1000s of years and the vast majority of the world is religious. This provides a lot of time for those morals to dig deep into every one of us including our laws and legal system. The second part is faith is an extremely strong tool to use to drive those morals in like hard cement. As I said before no one recites Kant, but they do the bible all the time.

We'd probably agree murder is immoral. But are there any conditions that could be met for you to justify the ending of another life? Or steal away the wife of an enemy soldier you just slayed, to be used as a vessel to have your children? What justification do you personally need to own another human being as property?

Not too long ago you could kill another man who disrespected you. Even today I bet more people see killing another person as a viable action for many reasons other than self-defense.

Funny thing though, I can't say God didn't influence my morals. Since I used to be Christian I learned a lot about Jesus and his message.

The reason why this post is at 67 pages is early on I suggested that religion influenced morals... lol's not something to say to the atheists here, as I saw.

The Gof of the Old Testament is the same as the God of New Statement. The most unpleasant character in fiction and an invention of the Jewish clergy that has its roots in the bronze age.

Those who believe in the Abrahamic God must first learn who is the God of the old testament and then engage in discussions about morals and morality.

originally posted by: Venkuish1

So still your argument has remained unchanged. Amino acid formation is acceptable and you agree it has natural causes but amino acid polymerization seems to have come out of the blue therefore it has supernatural causes.

Repeatedly misrepresenting me doesn't make you right. Amino acid polymerization occurs through enzymatic catalysis. It establishes a chicken-or-the-egg dilemma because amino acid polymerization is needed to make enzymes, but enzymes are made through amino acid polymerization. If it was designed then the designer could surpass this temporal paradox

Can you name me some of the physical and biochemical processes that don't have natural causes? Because they don't teach it at school or university level and it looks like you have some revealed knowledge that nobody possesses apart from creationists.

Lol you're just upset abiogenesis is thermodynamically impossible.

originally posted by: Venkuish1

Those who believe in the Abrahamic God must first learn who is the God of the old testament and then engage in discussions about morals and morality.

Sometimes bad things need to happen to bad people. You complain that God let's evil happen, and then also complain when God stops evil from happening. As said before, sometimes Nazis just deserve to die.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
The hypothetical stated that you know beyond any doubt that the direction was coming from God.

Christ established the law and we're not supposed to kill anyone, if God wanted someone dead it wouldnt be through me.

What are you talking about?
Is Christ a real person?

The Lord of the Rings seems more real...