How can atheism have morality?

originally posted by: cooperton
These stories have context that are important. Death and suffering is not necessarily 'bad', it is stages of conscious development that are helpful to raise a soul into the eternal realms. Even Jesus went through immense suffering and death...

By all means, go through and open my eyes and share some sense with me.

Because right now it seems your just doing a Jedi hand wave.

Really curious to see the mental gymnastics it will take to make those rapes okay in context, for example.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Venkuish1

The poster obviously lacks basic knowledge and tries to bring his belief in the supernatural world in...amino acid polymerization!

Same thing happened when he tried to bring his belief in the supernatural world in cosmology and especially when he talked about dark matter.

Do you know the difference yet between amino acid polymerization and amino acid formation? Come on, you were acting like an expert, I expected more from you! You even had a chance to do a few google searches and you dropped the ball.

And yes, it still remains a fact that dark matter was theorized due to the gravitational equations missing a remarkable amount of observable matter on the galactic level. You just never will admit you that I was right because you're not objective.

Grade10 students who study chemistry do know it. It seems it's you who is struggling with the basics and argued that amino acid formation has natural causes but amino acid polymerization has supernatural causes.

Do you understand how absurd your argument has become?

a reply to: cooperton

The age of the earth is never given, it was said to have existed when God began creation. I don't know how old the earth is, nor does anyone else.

4.5 billion. I'm almost certain it's 4.5 billion. Not just earth, the solar system.

Like we landed on an asteroid same Bennu and brought back samples.

www.nasa.gov...

The bulk of the sample is located inside. Initial studies of the 4.5-billion-year-old asteroid Bennu sample collected in space and brought to Earth by NASA show evidence of high-carbon content and water, which together could indicate the building blocks of life on Earth may be found in the rock.

Mars, The Moon, Venus, meteorites too.

We all formed from the same disk of dust. All samples show a uniform age.

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: cooperton
Do you admit the miller-urey experiment you presented is irrelevant to amino acid polymerization?

But it isn't, it is the first step in process.

And I did a quick google and it seems amino acid polymerization in water as well as on rocks is possible. Maybe you should be googling as well because your data seems to be dated.

Polymerization of beta-amino acids in aqueous solution
Polymerization on the rocks: beta-amino acids and arginine

The experiment was only able to polymerize two amino acids together, rather than forming chains. This is specifically referred to as "oligomerization", 'oligo' meaning "few":

"The pH dependence of the CDI-induced oligomerization of -amino acids is consistent with the above scheme. Under acidic conditions, decarboxylation is accelerated."

The world polymerization is only used in the title, whereas in the article they refer to all the reactions as oligomerization because it is only two amino acids forming a dimer. "Polymerization" is never used in the rest of the paper

So given the lab-setting used to synthesis the organic chemistry reaction, they still were only able to use the various catalysts to make a dimer, not a continually producing protein chain. The reason is that the catalysts can only act on monomers, so once it becomes a dimer, the catalyst used in the experiment can no longer catalyze the reaction into longer chains. Not to mention these sorts of catalysts they used would not just be readily floating around in high concentrations in acidic environments waiting to forego a reaction.

The concentration of the catalyst itself was also 2x more concentrated than the amino acids. This is a lab-grade experiment, these sorts of conditions would not be expected on earth and even if they were they could not synthesize beyond 2 amino acids.

They can't even form amino acid polymers in a lab setting orchestrated by intelligent scientists, let alone dumb luck being able to figure it out better.

originally posted by: Degradation33

4.5 billion. I'm almost certain it's 4.5 billion. Not just earth, the solar system.

How do they know it is 4.5 billion years old?

originally posted by: Venkuish1
Grade10 students who study chemistry do know it. It seems it's you who is struggling with the basics and argued that amino acid formation has natural causes but amino acid polymerization has supernatural causes.

Do you understand how absurd your argument has become?

I am not claiming amino acid polymerization is supernatural, I am saying it is thermodynamically unfavorable. It happens all the time in living organisms with the help of the cellular machinery. It requires enzymatic catalysis to happen. Amino acid formation on the other hand is thermodynamically favorable and will occur spontaneously throughout nature.

Do you get it now?

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
Really curious to see the mental gymnastics it will take to make those rapes okay in context, for example.

Lol what? when did God condone rape? You're just reading atheist misrepresentative claims. There was literally a death penalty for rape in the Bible.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Degradation33

4.5 billion. I'm almost certain it's 4.5 billion. Not just earth, the solar system.

How do they know it is 4.5 billion years old?

Perhaps it would be wise to open a book in science and learn for yourself. Don't take it as a degrading comment but this is high school knowledge. Nothing is hidden, revealed to prophets or the chosen people, but is given freely to those who spend sometime and read.

The earth is around 4.5 billion years old just like our solar system and not 6,000 years old like the creationists claim.

originally posted by: Venkuish1
Perhaps it would be wise to open a book in science and learn for yourself. Don't take it as a degrading comment but this is high school knowledge.

Blindly believing experts is not knowledge. Blindly believing experts is the road to dogmatism. I am not going to blindly accept numbers that have no empirical backing. I'm a scientist not a blind believer

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Venkuish1
Grade10 students who study chemistry do know it. It seems it's you who is struggling with the basics and argued that amino acid formation has natural causes but amino acid polymerization has supernatural causes.

Do you understand how absurd your argument has become?

I am not claiming amino acid polymerization is supernatural, I am saying it is thermodynamically unfavorable. It happens all the time in living organisms with the help of the cellular machinery. It requires enzymatic catalysis to happen. Amino acid formation on the other hand is thermodynamically favorable and will occur spontaneously throughout nature.

Do you get it now?

No you aim at this conversation so to argue it's impossible for amino acid polymerization to happen if there is no external supernatural cause. It's clear from what you said.

originally posted by: Venkuish1

No you aim at this conversation so to argue it's impossible for amino acid polymerization to happen if there is no external supernatural cause. It's clear from what you said.

I was definitely not saying that, amino acid polymerization is happening in my body as we speak. It occurs through precise catalysis by various mechanisms in each and every cell of our bodies. It does not, however, occur in nature without these catalytic mechanisms. It is thermodynamically equivalent to lighting a match underwater.

originally posted by: Venkuish1
The earth is around 4.5 billion years old just like our solar system and not 6,000 years old like the creationists claim.

I never claimed the earth is 6000 years old, that's another one of your strawman arguments. You have to makeup arguments for me so you can pretend to overcome me in a debate. Meanwhile you ignore the points where you make blatant mistakes that clearly show you're just a blindly believing acolyte.

a reply to: cooperton
That is the next step.

That is how science works, finding out a little at a time.

Bringing up new possibilities and knocking down some old ideas.

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: cooperton
That is the next step.

That is how science works, finding out a little at a time.

Bringing up new possibilities and knocking down some old ideas.

You're essentially appealing to the same God-of-the-gaps fallacy that you have critiqued before. "we don't know how it happened, but it was definitely abiogenesis without intelligent intervention". Abiogenesis-of-the-gaps theory... It is literally the most unintelligent possibility.

The fact that scientists in a controlled setting with lab equipment and catalytic chemicals cannot create life from non-life, is very telling that unintelligent matter left to the currently known thermodynamic laws would certainly not be able to make it.

a reply to: cooperton

I'm reading from the Bible. It's in the thread I linked.

And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Numbers 31:14-18

When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee. And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it: And when the Lord thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.
Deuteronomy 20:10-14

When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.
Deuteronomy 21:10-14

Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zechariah 14:1-2

originally posted by: cooperton
There was literally a death penalty for rape in the Bible.

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
Deuteronomy 22:23-24

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun. And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
2 Samuel 12:11-14

edit on 1-23-2024 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)

originally posted by: cooperton
You're essentially appealing to the same God-of-the-gaps fallacy that you have critiqued before. "we don't know how it happened, but it was definitely abiogenesis without intelligent intervention".

No, I'm saying what I have always said, science is still working on it. Unlike those that actually rely on the God-of-the-gaps fallacy.

Besides I believe this is a simulation, so my actual "faith" is in a programmer that isn't necessarily a god.

The fact that scientists in a controlled setting with lab equipment and catalytic chemicals cannot create life from non-life, is very telling that unintelligent matter left to the currently known thermodynamic laws would certainly not be able to make it.

You don't know if that is actually true. Nobody does.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Numbers 31:14-18

When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee. And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it: And when the Lord thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.
Deuteronomy 20:10-14


When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.
Deuteronomy 21:10-14

This happens after most conquests by all nations, they spare the women and children and the women marry into the conquering people.

originally posted by: daskakik
No, I'm saying what I have always said, science is still working on it. Unlike those that actually rely on the God-of-the-gaps fallacy.

Are you open to the possibility that evolution is wrong? it seems like you're waiting for the gaps to be filled by evolution and you ignore the evidence that show it can't happen

Besides I believe this is a simulation, so my actual "faith" is in a programmer that isn't necessarily a god.

What if Jesus was the programmer?

You don't know if that is actually true. Nobody does.

Sure, but it makes more sense that an algorithmic system was designed rather than the result of random chance. In designing a video game, it takes precise mathematics to make the physics work, it's the same with the real world.

originally posted by: cooperton
This happens after most conquests by all nations, they spare the women and children and the women marry into the conquering people.

Romans 12:2: Be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is the good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

(Also edited previous post to show some Biblical punishments for rape)

originally posted by: cooperton
This happens after most conquests by all nations, they spare the women and children and the women marry into the conquering people.

That isn't what is being described there. They didn't spare male children or women who were not virgins. And the main point is that these deaths were ordered by a "loving" god.

Worst still, if they didn't worship him, he knew he was going to send them to eternal punishment. Sounds like one helluva guy.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
Romans 12:2: Be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is the good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Yeah I agree. The reason they wouldn't spare the non-virgin women, is because they were under the impression that they were corrupted by the corrupt nation. Purity laws in ancient Israel are quite interesting, but they are no longer required because Christ is now the purifying factor.