J-10 production in problems?

cowlan,
nothing in ur post suggested that fc-1 is not going to have problems .if the chinese intend to use rd-93 in it and the russians havent cleared for exports then theres problem there ,big problem.

Oh no, the RD-93 is already signed, the new ALs are the ones TO BE signed this summer.

yes rd-93 deal is signed with respect to china but the export , as of now [to pakis ] is not permissible.since pakistan will be getting the initial jf-17 thn whats the way out .china already has j-10 and it is most probably quite superior to the jf-17's then how is the rd93 deal purposeful.

RD-93s are for JF-17/FC-1, they won't be for J-10s. Yes J-10 is quite superior to FC-1s but FC-1s is a mainly export model built for third world countries who like the bang for the buck (15 Mil). Yes China will build 250 FC-1 for PLAAF but that will most likely be exported as other customers are found and quite a lot of them have showed interest. Pakistan will purchase at least 150 according to Musharaff. Some engines will also be used as replacement engines during the Mid life.

i just had to post this. looks so sleek

much more sleek then actual plane sorry i had to say it

I appreciate the "sleeker" F-16 more. Its (almost)identical juz dun seem as appealing.

Since there is some confusion in this thread about the J-10's origins, i'll set the record straight.

The J-10 is largely based on the Israeli Lavi(some like to call it a copy of it). The Lavi is essentially a modified F-16 (Israel had the F-16). China too secretly obtained an F-16 from pakistan but since it was incapable of reverse engineering it, she joined Israel.

The J-10 is based on the Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI)’s Lavi fighter. After the Lavi programme was cancelled in 1987, its design was taken over by CAC, and IAI carried on with the development of avionic equipment.

www.sinodefence.com...

Six years ago, U.S. government reports accused Israel of illegally transferring U.S. technology from the largely U.S.-funded Lavi fighter plane program to China. China's new J-10 fighter jet is nearly identical to the Lavi.

www.rense.com...

China's J-10 is fully based on the Israeli Lavi, an Israeli plane subsidized with $1.4 billion in U.S. tax dollars

www.solargeneral.com...

Apparently, Chinese engineers are trying to develop the J-10 from a single F-16 provided by Pakistan, and with assistance from Israeli engineers associated with Israel’s US-financed Lavi fighter program, which was cancelled in 1987.

It is reported that the J-10's radar and fire-control system is the Israeli-made ELM-2021 system, which can simultaneously track six air targets and lock onto the four most-threatening targets for destruction. Some experts believe that the Israeli contribution will focus on avionics and radar, with Russia supplying the engines. In December 1991, US intelligence officials announced that Israel was planning to open a government coordinated and sponsored "arms office" in the PRC. In light of what the Israelis have to offer, and what the Chinese need, it was most likely that a transfer of avionics and other technologies developed in the Lavi program would ensue, since there is a void in the Chinese avionics and fire control system capability due to the 1989 termination of a US/Chinese program in response to Tienanmen square.

China and Israel started collaboration in the early 1980's and full-scale cooperation was underway officially by 1984. After the 1987 cancellation of the Lavi, it was taken over by CAIC and the IAI carried on with the development of avionic equipment.

Since neither China nor Israel is capable of developing the propulsion system required by the J-10, in 1991 China acquired the AI31F turbofan engine from Russia for incorporation into the J-10 fighter.

www.fas.org...

David Lari, director general of Israel's Ministry of Defense, acknowledged in an Associated Press interview that "some technology on aircraft" had been sold to China and that some Israeli companies may not have "clean hands".

The J-10's radar and fire-control system is the Israeli-made ELM-2021 system, which can simultaneously track six air targets and lock on to the four most threatening targets for destruction.

the US Office of Naval Intelligence in its unclassified "Worldwide Challenges to Naval Strike Warfare" restated more strongly than it had the previous year its belief that US-derived technology from the canceled Israeli Lavi fighter was being used on China's new J-10 fighter. It said, "The design has been undertaken with substantial direct external assistance, primarily from Israel and Russia, with indirect assistance through access to US technologies."

In fact, according to the annual intelligence report, "the J-10 is a single-seat, light multi-role fighter based heavily on the canceled Israeli Lavi program".

atimes.com...

"In the late 1980s, at least 20 engineers from Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) were part of the fighter's design team at Chengdu."

"IAI also helped with windtunnel testing in the early design stage. The Israeli presence has been scaled down in the last three years"

"The Israeli design and development input in the programme is valued at more than $500 million. Overall programme costs are said to top $5 billion"

link

The J-10 is a multi-role single-engine and single-seat tactical fighter, with a combat radius of 1,000 kilometers. Although billed as a domestically produced fighter, in truth the J-10 could not have happened without the help of other countries, especially
Israel.

The program began in the late 1980s and is thought to be based on an Israeli design. It contains Israeli and Russian avionics, and is powered by Russian engines.

Chinese engineers developed the J-10 from a single F-16 provided by Pakistan, and with assistance from Israeli engineers associated with Israel's US-financed Lavi fighter program, which was canceled in 1987, according to the Federation of American Scientists website. The Lavi was based on the US F-16 and built with US$1.3 billion in aid from Washington.

In 1983, when US support for the Lavi commenced, the program was opposed vigorously by the Defense Department, partly because of re-export concerns. An early supporter of the Lavi was George Shultz, then secretary of state in the administration of US president Ronald Reagan. Shultz would later label his advocacy of the program a "costly mistake".

David Lari, director general of Israel's Ministry of Defense, acknowledged in an Associated Press interview that "some technology on aircraft" had been sold to China and that some Israeli companies may not have "clean hands".

Yet China's acquisition of the Russian Su-27, after China had attempted for years to develop the J-10 aircraft with equivalent technology to perform similar functions, is seen by some experts as a sign that China lacks confidence in its domestic industrial capabilities.

link


The Lavi :




The J-10(copied) :







Jetsetter, none of these are photoshopped. You can right click and check the sources if you want to.

The white J-10 is an early prototype that crashed. The third one looks blurred because of heat-haze.









[edit on 10-6-2005 by Stealth Spy]

Wow, quoting FAS, that is one outdated site, look at the date on the bottom. 2001, its halfway through 2005 now.

Yes, J-10 was originally based on the Israeli Lavi, keyword BASED. It is certainly not the same. Look at the specs of the Lavi and the J-10, completely different. J-10 is much more advanced than the Lavi wished to be. The structural design of J-10 is much more advanced than the Lavi and the F-16. Just stating the rectangular belly intake with variable intake ability is much more advanced than the F-16, plus canards, plus major additional improvement in other areas, but it is still only just a 4++ generation plane, still no match for the typhoon or the F-22.

I wonder when new pictures of the second batch J-10 would leak out.

The SD-10 has been approved for use on the J-10 and R-77s are undergoing tests and modifications have been made on the J-10s to carry the R-77s. Chinawhite, that picture you posted, it looks more like a MiG-21 with canards and rectangular underbelly intakes than a F-16. In fact, too sleek when compared to actual photos, where it looks quite fat.

Yes it might be based on the F-16 and have israeli tech and russian engines but there's no doubting the fact that its a very potent airplane indeed.

With a good aveonics fit and with a good russian radar and TVC, i guess it'll be a very hard to beat airplane.

external image



[edit on 10-6-2005 by Stealth Spy]

Originally posted by COWlan
Wow, quoting FAS, that is one outdated site, look at the date on the bottom. 2001, its halfway through 2005 now.

Yes, J-10 was originally based on the Israeli Lavi, keyword BASED. It is certainly not the same. Look at the specs of the Lavi and the J-10, completely different. J-10 is much more advanced than the Lavi wished to be. The structural design of J-10 is much more advanced than the Lavi and the F-16. Just stating the rectangular belly intake with variable intake ability is much more advanced than the F-16, plus canards, plus major additional improvement in other areas, but it is still only just a 4++ generation plane, still no match for the typhoon or the F-22.

I wonder when new pictures of the second batch J-10 would leak out.

I would not be so sure about that. The Lavi design actually appears more advanced than the J-10.

Stealth Spy, the design in every one of the pics you posted are different. The first appears to be a Lavi in Chinese colors. The third looks somewhere in between. Atleast two are photoshop jobs. The second looks real though.


[edit on 6/10/05 by jetsetter]

Excuse my asking, but that would be because of what? Avonics and fire control? or Radar? J-10s have the same avonics and fire control, and the Zhuk is probably going to be fitted in to the J-10 at some time or another if not for a newer radar. Engine wise, the AL-31 has been proven to be a very efficent and reliable power plant, and the WS-10 with TVC will probably be better.

So, what would make the Lavi better?

I think it would be better if China use Russian engines and not the WS-10

Here's what i found on the WS-10 :

The CAC is also trying to replace the Russian AL-31F with the indigenously developed WS-10A, which is said to be a Chinese copy of the Russian AL-31FN.

www.sinodefence.com...

It seems to be having problems as well, so Russian engines might be a better choice

I don't know what Russian engines would have the TVC capabilites expected of the WS-10. As for the WS-10 being a copy of the AL-31, it is said to be a copy, big difference there. The Su-25 was said to be a copy of the losing competitor for the ground attack project, the (what was that plane's name again?), as the competition was won by the A-10. However, if it is a copy of the AL-31, all I have to say is sloppy.

WS-10A is fitted with 3D thrust vectoring nozzle. China when it takes in technology doesn't copy them exactly like how they came, we improve it then deploy it and we did. WS-10A you can say is largely an AL-31F but improved under Chinese circumstances and requirements just like how our SU-27SKs are improved in so many ways than the SU-27SK kits sent to China, J-11B is supposed to be a fully indegnous SU-27 with much more use of composite materials, weight reduction, TVC engines, Iron Bird quadruple FBW, improved avionics and air to surface capabilities in LGBs, AScM, ARMs and dumb bombs.

The reported problems on WS-10 are mainly from 2+ years ago before the testing on the J-11 test platform which are completed long ago.

[edit on 10-6-2005 by COWlan]

[edit on 10-6-2005 by COWlan]

Originally posted by jetsetter
Stealth Spy, the design in every one of the pics you posted are different. The first appears to be a Lavi in Chinese colors. The third looks somewhere in between. Atleast two are photoshop jobs. The second looks real though.

Yep, if you compared the fuselage of the 2 aircraft you can see how different the J-10's dimensions are to the Lavi. Definetely not copied bolt for bolt.

Hey I just noticed, look at the picture of J-10 in the heat haze, look at the engine. Compare that to the engine in the other J-10s, that is very very different. Could that be a TVC nozzle, I don't think so but could it?