J-10 production in problems?

Actually the SU-30 will defeat the F-15 if pilot training is roughly equal. It is by all intents and purposes a supperior aircraft.

Not rally the new F-15 with AESA radar and with new Aim-120 and Aim-9X missiles is better than the Su-30, not pilot training ant support systems also have to come into the equation. Whatever your view is we all know that the F-15’s would not get “mopped” up.

If you guys just say "this is better than that," it just shows your subjective opinion. You gotta provide more details to back it up.

The Su-30s have datalink to AWACS, they can share their radar screen with AWACS.

The raw performance of both fighters are very similar and thus they have equal ability to get into a good missile engagement paremiter. However, assuming AWACS is present for both sides and both planes can spot each other and are armed with a good load of BVR missiles, the Su-30 will have the first shot advantage because its R-77 missiles have a slightly better range and agility over the AIM-120. Other than that they're pretty much par.

It was already stated in the thread... I didn't really feel like typing it all back out again

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Not rally the new F-15 with AESA radar and with new Aim-120 and Aim-9X missiles is better than the Su-30, not pilot training ant support systems also have to come into the equation. Whatever your view is we all know that the F-15’s would not get “mopped” up.

Don't just say that, back it up. A R-77 has better tange than the new Aim-120s, and Su-30s can datalink with AWACs, meaning they have roughly the same detection range as the F-15s with AWACs, maybe less, but then again even with longer detection the F-15s' AIM-120 can only fire at around 45 miles away, and I believe the Su-30's radar can detect aircraft at 90 miles away and launch a R-77 from 60 miles away.

Also, current US fighter jock training for a F-15 pilot is like this, just keep flying, see a plane, launch an AMRAAM. Pilot training is not as important as it was during the old days when manouvres were everything. I believe Su-30 pilot training is also similar, only that they launch R-77s

[edit on 23/4/05 by W4rl0rD]

The F-15 can data link with AWAC’s and the F-15’s AESA radar has better range and capabilities than its old Doppler radar.
Plus, check your facts the Aim-120 has a maximum rage of 70km, and the USAF in 2008 will field the AIM-120D which has a two way data link and a 50% increase in range and it will also have more accurate navigation.

Training for the F-15 is very intense only the best pilots get to fly the F-15. Someone else on this site probably knows more about F-15 training then me but I can guarantee you its more than what you said.

AIM-120 Range:


From en.wikipedia.org...:

Range - over 32 km

From www.designation-systems.net...:

Range - 50-70 km (30-45 miles)

From www.astronautix.com...:

Range - Vary between 50 km (30 miles) and 70 km (45 miles)


R-77 Adder Range:

From en.wikipedia.org...:

Range - 90 km (R-77), 175 km (R-77M1)

From www.propro.ru...:

Range - Max 150 km

From www.canit.se...:

Range - 100 km


From this, it can be seen that Russians have the upper hand with superior missles. Even if their radar can only detect an enemy aircraft at 100 km away, they still have fire-first capability, even if an F-15 can see the Su-30 from 200 km away, it is still unable to launch an AMRAAM.

The reason those missile ranges differ from source to source is beause of different launch perimiters used for testing the missiles: orientation, altitude, speed. Just because your missile says "range: 50km" doesn't mean you can launch it from sea level and it flies 50km then goes *poof* disappears. Jane's Fleet Command, F-22 Raptor, and other crappy "sims" are like that, and I hate them all

A missile will travel very very far if you launch it flying at Mach 2 at 12000 m or something like that. It will only fly a few km before running out of steam if you launch it at sea level. An AIM-120 launched at high altitude high speed will outrange an R-77 at low altitude low speed, and vice versa as well. Factors like air pressure (depend mainly on altitude), launcher orientation, target aspect, and initial velocity, come into play

A more useful comparison for the raw performance of those missiles would be their drag, weight, thrust, and thrust duration. However, thust and thrust durations are the big question marks I'm having trouble with. Nevertheless, I do know the "potato masher" control surfaces on the R-77 greatly reduces its drag and increases its manoeuvrability, it is a superior design compared to most conventional fin designs such as the AIM-120.

Another important factor is guidance, and that means the range of the missile seekers and the ability of the seekers to resist jamming and spoofing. The missile with the greater seeker range will allow the attacking fighter to break lock on the enemy earlier and turn away. I know the R-77 has a seeker range of about 20km, but I don't know about the AIM-120. Both missiles also have HOJ (home on jam) capability, which means if the enemy fighter turn on its jammers, it will home in onto the signals generated by the jammer, thus rendering the jammer unbeneficial.

[edit on 23-4-2005 by Taishyou]

I got my 70km range form Raytheon’s website which is the company that develops the Aim-120, and when the Aim-120D comes out it will have 105km(65miles) max range.

Getting back to the original intent of this topic: the J-10 having production problems...

I was reading an article that also indicated that the J-17 [JF-17 or FC-1 or RD-33 to Pakistan] is having problems, as well:

As if to confirm this, in a radio program on Friday, Pakistan's Information Minister Ahmed noted that the JF-17 fighter that China was developing in cooperation with Pakistan had recently faced uncertainties regarding its engine and other components. Officially, the JF-17, or the FC-1 as it is known in China, is equipped with an engine from Russia's Klimov Corporation. But reports from authoritative sources like Jane's Defence Weekly note that Russia has not granted permission for China to equip export versions of the FC-1 with Klimov engines. Other reports have noted that Pakistan Air Force officials expressed dissatisfaction with the quality of Chinese avionics and radar systems, preferring European-made systems. However, given the uncertainty in the lifting of the European Union's weapons embargo on China, it is not clear if China will be able to obtain source codes for European sub-systems to be able to integrate them with a Chinese plane.

scroll down three-quarters of the page to The China Angle





seekerof

There is no problem with either of these two aircrafts, both are fine and FC-1 should start production late this year or next year. China just ordered 100 RD-93 engines with follow on orders of up to 500 and the purchasing of 250 AL-31FN engines to power our J-11s (order to be signed this summer). Here's the article:

Russian Aircraft Engines for the PRC

The Moscow Salyut Machine Building Production Enterprise is delivering AL-31F engines to a plant in Shenyang for J-11 multirole fighters ?the Chinese designation of the Su-27SK fighters. In 1996, a contract was signed for the licensed assembly of 200 aircraft with two AL-31F each. So far, 110 have been assembled. This year the signing of a contract for the assembly of the remaining Su-27SK or their improved Su-30MK2 version is expected. A contract is being studied for the delivery of engines for the overhaul of the previously assembled J-11. According to the general director of MMPP Salyut, Yuriy Eliseev, 揟he Chinese side has expressed interest in the purchase of upgraded AL-31F aircraft engines of Salyut production for a total of 1.2 ?1.4 billion dollars for the Su family of fighters. The forthcoming cooperation is being looked at for a period of six years.?

Moreover, Beijing intends to purchase from Salyut through the mediation of Rosoboronehksport nearly 250 AL-31FN engines for a total of 900 million dollars for the lightweight J-10 fighter ?the Chinese variant of the Israeli Lavi fighter. Signing of the contract is expected in the summer of 2005.

"Source: 19.04.05, Kommersant, Correspondent: Konstantin Lantratov

Russia to Deliver to China 100 Engines for New Chinese Fighter

Rosoboronehksport has signed a contract with China for the delivery of 100 RD-93 engines for the new Chinese FC-1 fighter, Kommersant has reported. According to unofficial information, China intends to export the FC-1 to Pakistan. However, for this it will be necessary to remove the Russian engines from the fighters ?to avoid complications in Russo-Indian relations, the publication writes.

The command of China抯 People抯 Liberation Army as early as 2000 adopted a decision to equip the FC-1 fighter with the Russian RD-93 engine. The Moscow Chernyshev Machine Building Enterprise will carry out series production of the RD-93. In 2002 ?2003, an experimental batch of RD-93 was delivered to China for three experimental FC-1 airplanes. Several days ago, Rosoboronehksport concluded a contract for a total of 267 million dollars for the delivery of the first 100 engines and spare parts for them and maintenance.
The possibility of additional RD-93 purchases of up to 500 units also was discussed at the negotiations.

The FC-1, known also under the Super-7 designation, is the first Chinese multirole fighter which was created for deliveries to international markets. Development of the airplane has been underway since the start of the ?0s by the Chinese Chengdu Aircraft Industry ((in English)) company. The Russian engineering center attached to the Mikoyan OKB also participated in the project. The FC-1 fighter is equipped with one Russian RD-93 engine with a thrust of 8,300 kilograms of force.

Source: 19.04.05, Avia.RU

www.royfc.com...".

The AL-31s only have a operational lifetime of 2500 hours and would need to be replaced faster than the 4000 hour lifetime of western engines (F-16). But AL-31s are cheaper and faster built than American ones.

RD-93s are the improved version of the RD-33 used on MIG-29s.

Neither J-10 nor FC-1 is in trouble, they both are soon being mass produced and pushed into the international market.

I got a new photo which was deracted to J-10's cockpit, maybe not


[edit on 24-4-2005 by emile]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
I got my 70km range form Raytheon’s website which is the company that develops the Aim-120, and when the Aim-120D comes out it will have 105km(65miles) max range.

Even then, a R-77M1's max range is around 150 km. Either way, it will depend a lot on where it is launched.

And at what range can the Su-30 engage targets?




West Point, Out.

I'm not sure, but it will depend a lot on the radar. I believe the No-11 Zhuk can detect a F-15 at roughly 140 km,same as the old F-15 radar. No hard data has been found though, just the best estimate I can do.

W4rl0rD ok world thanks a lot, I guess there are too many factor/variables to guess the exact range and capabilities of a missile.

I can help you with that .. here's the info of an indian site for the Su30 MKI..
The N0-11M BArs is a phased antennae array type of radar..similar to the AESA structure I think.. i.i. made of many minature radarlets..
It has a rear radar (N0-12) as well

The forward facing Phazotron NO11M Bars is a powerful integrated radar sighting system. The N011M is a digital multi-mode dual frequency band radar (X and L Band, NATO D and I). Antenna diameter is 1m, antenna gain 36dB, the main sidelobe level is -25dB, average sideobe level is -48dB, beamwidth is 2.4 deg with 12 distinct beam shapes. The antenna weighs 100kg.

The N011M radar has been under flight testing since 1993, fitted to Su-27M (Su-35) prototype '712'. It employs the same level of technology as the now abandoned N014 radar which was to have equipped Mikoyan's MFI "fifth-generation" fighter and was initiated by Tamerlan Bekirbayev. The nose of the Su-30MKI was modified (compared the Su-27) to accommodate the fixed antenna array and more avionics boxes.

Note that the N011M is different from the N011: the N011 is mechanical scanning while the former is features a phased array antenna and is much more capable. The mechanical scan version equips the No 24 Sqn aircraft. "We can count the number of blades in the engine of the aircraft in sight (by the NO11M) and by that determine its type," NIIP claims.

The N011M can function both in air-to-air and air-to-land/sea mode simultaneusly while being tied into a high-precision laser-inertial / GPS navigation system. It is equipped with a modern digital weapons control system as well as anti-jamming features. The aircraft has an opto-electronic surveillance and targeting system which consists of a IR direction finder, laser rangefinder and helmet mounted sight system. The HMS allows the pilot to turn his head in a 90º field of view, lock on to a target and launch the much-feared R-73RDM2 missile.
Cannot Be Enlarged

In preliminary long range aiming, the targets (co-ordinates of which enter the navigation system) are locked on automatically, and the onboard locator is disengaged. The aircraft flies radio silent to the targets, and at a range close to the maximum one required for launching the weapons, the threat updating aids are engaged and the weapon is fired. In doing so, the attack time is minimal and the low-observable target approach increases the success of a mission greatly. The Su-30MKI can be fitted with an imaging IR navigation and attack equipment pod to provide night attacks against small-size ground targets.

For aircraft N011M has a 350 km search range and a 200 km tracking range. The radar can track and engage 20 air targets and engage the 8 most threatening targets simultaneously. The forward hemisphere is ±90º in azimuth and ±55º in elevation. These targets can include cruise/ballistic missiles and even motionless helicopters. A MiG-21 for instance can be detected at a distance of up to 135 km. Design maximum search range for an F-16 target was 140-160km. A Bars' earlier variant, fitted with a five-kilowatt transmitter, proved to be capable of acquiring Su-27 fighters at a range of over 330 km. In comparison, the advanced Kopyo radar found in the latest MiG-21UPG can detect small drone targets at a range of 50 km. Another radar meant for the Flanker family, Phazotron-NIIR’s Zhuk-MS radar has a range of 150-180km against a fighter and over 300km against a warship. N011M can withstand up to 5 percent transceiver loss without significant degredation in performance. Additionally the Su-30MKI can function as a 'mimi-AWACS' and can act as a director or command post for other aircraft. The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to atleast 4 other aircraft. This feature was first seen in the MiG-31 Foxhound, which is equipped with a Zaslon radar.

Russian designers have stated that they believe that the key to dogfight supremacy rests in the pilot's ability to engage the enemy in any position relative to their own aircraft. While TVC permits post-stall maneuvering and pointing which are impossible in conventional aircraft, they are convinced that a rearward facing radar and missiles that can be fired in the aft-quadrant all join to make an unbeatable integrated weapons system.

Ground surveillance modes include mapping (with Doppler beam sharpening), search & track of moving targets, synthetic aperture radar and terrain avoidance. To penetrate enemy defenses, the aircraft can fly at low altitudes using the terrain following and obstacle avoidance feature. It enables the pilot to independently find his position without help from external sources (satellite navigation, etc.); detect ground targets and their AD systems; choose the best approach route to a target with continuous updates fed to the aircraft navigation systems; and provide onboard systems and armament with targeting data.

According to Sukhoi EDB the Su-30MKI is capable of performing all tactical tasks of the Su-24 Fencer deep interdiction tactical bomber and the Su-27 Flanker A/B/C air superiority fighter while having around twice the combat range and atleast 2.5 times the combat effectiveness.

The N011M offers a quantum leap in technology over the earlier Russian radars. Small ground targets, like tanks, can be detected out to 40-50 km. The MiG-29, Su-27 and other fighters can be provided with a ground strike capability only if their radars can operate in the down-looking mode which generates a map of ground surface on a cockpit display (this mode is called the Mapping Mode).

N011M ensures a 20 m resolution detection of large sea targets at a distance up to 400 km, and of small size ones - at a distance of 120 km. Coupled with the air-launched Brahmos-A AShM, the Su-30MKI will become an unchallanged platform for Anti-Ship duties. The Brahmos is a result of a joint collaboration between India and Russia and is a variant of the Yakhont AShM (which has not entered service).

The Su-30MKI also has a NO12 rearward facing radar which is housed at the end of the center section spine or sting and alerts a pilot to the approach of an enemy aircraft on his tail. This radar has a range of 50km for a 3 sqm RCS target and 100 km for large ones. It features a surveillance area of ±60º in azimuth and elevation. It enables the pilot to fire the R-73RDM2 missile without turning to get a positive lock on the enemy aircraft. The missile will be launched as usual and will then flip 180º to intercept the aircraft.

Aha,told you the Zhuk had a range of roughly 150km

Also, with the newer NO-11M fielded by the IAF, how well does it compare to the AESA radar on the F-15Cs? China does not have the NO-11M radards, only NO-11 Zhuk radars, but still good enough to match up to a F-15.

Why do you think its good enough to match up to an F-15? Its ranges are better suited against an F-16 than F-15 with AESA.

^^ How come??..
If you match stat for stat, the only diff is thta THe AESA can track/engage a few more targets at the same time..
(In my preve AESA vs N0-11M debate we came to the above conclusion)
Radar track ranges more or less are the same..
Russian missile ranges are better..