EU Labels Anyone Calling For Peace A "Kremlin Propagandist"

Putin has been there since the beginning, ready for peace talks at any time. Ukraine's government appears to have chosen death. C'est la vie!

As for 'previously recognised borders', they change over time. Same with everything in life.

a reply to: Oldcarpy2
If not for Russia, you would be. Don't forget it!

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
a reply to: nugget1

I ain’t about to justify the US’s recent invasions, I thought they were wrong too.

But when’s the last time the US has invaded a country for the purpose of annexing the land?

That's not why the US invades; we only want to lock up their resources at the cheapest price possible, i.e. gas, oil, precious metals-whatever we may need.

originally posted by: 1947boomer

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: VulcanWerks

I'm not pro-Russia but I am disgusted at the West for perpetuating war. They are prolonging war.

They aren't in support of winning.

They just want to feed the MIC.

....

And if NATO went in with overwhelming force to kick Russia's butt (which they certainly have the means to do), would you be whining that they were going to start WWIII?

Apologies Kevin, how do you win a war?

a reply to: baggy7981

Putin has been there since the beginning, ready for peace talks at any time.

If this were true surely Putin wouldn't have ordered his troops to invade and start the war?

originally posted by: alldaylong
a reply to: VulcanWerks

Not our problem.

You have no answer then ?

I will take it that you would not be prepared to give up American soil. So why should you suggest Ukraine give up theirs ?

You’re doing some serious extrapolation gymnastics.

I’m giving your comment airtime because you raise an important distinction…

I would absolutely say defend OUR borders, or OUR fellow NATO members.

The issue is - Ukraine is not that.

In fact, I’d say you’re applying some caveman thinking to this. “WhAT if they INvaded YOUR land!?!!!!!!?!?!”

If “they” invaded “my” land - I would take up arms and defend our country

However… this in Ukraine is not what I reference above…

So - explain to me how the war in Ukraine is good for me and my fellow NATO citizens.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: VulcanWerks

Fine, but Ukraine has a say in this and surrendering and appeasing Putin ain't a good idea for them.

Appeasement? Then who'd be next on his list?

Sometimes you give something to get something…

a reply to: Freeborn

Would it be an indefinite amount of support over a long period of time? How much and how long?

a reply to: VulcanWerks

There are a lot of people who not only support a peaceful resolution (if possible), but also think that no matter what the resolution is, it has nothing to do with NATO, and those people would be right. For now, at least.

You'll notice that a large majority from the UK are absolutely irrational and petty when it comes to anything to do with Russia. Just the mention of peace sends them into a tizzy.

Usually they start off saying that Ukraine can decide for themselves, then, in the next statement they'll tell you what Ukraine should do.

Yea, that.

a reply to: Zanti Misfit

As a Patriotic American who has had Family Members Die for their Country in " Foreign Wars " , I Resent my PRESENT Federal Government Violating Our Constitution and Using Our Military Personal to Fight and Possibly Die in Any More European Conflicts that are Considered by WE THE PEOPLE as being Not a Direct Threat to America or it's Borders . European Nations should Settle their Differences Without American Involvement PERIOD .

Our military personnel aren’t fighting to my knowledge.

There’s certainly an argument to be made about the amount of aid we’ve provided, but we did sign a deal with Ukraine if they relinquish their nukes we provide security to them should their sovereignty be threatened.

That agreement is younger than me. And this amount of money is throwing the eastern sphere of influence off their trajectory.

People can play contrarian all they want. But just a few years ago they were talking about a threat to the free living west from the east, mainly China.

Covid mixed with this conflict has forced the west to start weaning themselves off of Russia and China. Trump had noted the reliance Germany had with Russian natural gas and the wests need of Chinese goods.

What’s happening is bipartisan. And yea, a lot of foreign policies from the US have been horrible post WWII. But this one isn’t the worst. Ukraine clearly doesn’t want to be absorbed. They want help so they can defend their sovereignty alone. We signed a vague deal saying we would help if this ever happened, and to some degree we are. It just so happens this is isolating Russia and to some extent China. Save me the crocodile tears about autocratic governments who are ruled by lifers. Their citizens don’t have close to the amount of freedoms as I do. So if it comes down to us vs them on global influence. I pick us.

Some of you lot don't seem to realize that it's not just Ukraine that POS c**t Putin and his cronies want. It's like his comments about USSR collapse being the biggest geopolitical disaster never existed. Open your f***ing eyes - after Ukraine would come the Baltics, Poland, maybe even further countries to the West.

Oh yes, then your sons and daughters would definitely fight and die on European soil. You're so bogged down on American imperialism that you fail to see the GENOCIDAL russkie imperialism occuring right before your eyes. Blaming the West for "prolonging" war is basically saying that Ukraine should just surrender. It's ridiculous and simply dangerous.

I notice there's a certain type of people who like Putin (not on ATS but in real life) - extremely insecure "alpha" males and sex pests longing for a political "strongman" leader, regardless of how corrupt and horrible in every sense of the word that leader might be. Some people just don't deserve democracy I guess.

a reply to: VulcanWerks

I will put it into simple terms.

The US was a signatory to " The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances " part of which states:-

Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to the signatory if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".

en.wikipedia.org...

So are you telling me that The US should not honour what it has signed ?

It sounds like it.

this would be like churchill criminalising the dove (peace) party in 1939/40 or Cromwell/king charles criminalising the peaceable army in the 1640s, only Tyrants like putin criminalise efforts to stop the killing, and once down the route of criminalising dissenters it never stops at just the one topic but becomes a cancerous rot.

in terms of the Budapest memorandum the key signatories of us, britain and france should have intervened militarily in 2014 even if it risked war with russia, in effect a modern pristina airport, and the last point to step in was the military build up on ukraines border it should have been the west saying that far and no more, a point of no return for all, anything else has allowed this conflict grow to the point the west pivots to wage war against its own..

this is one of key points that highlights the reformation like period we live in, roman europe blamed the reformation on the ottomans and claimed the protestant dissenters where in league with muslins in more modern times it has been popular to blame the soviets for all issues and now just blame putin for every dissenter.

this is the kind of thinking that'll make this far worse for the west than it needs to be, most notably in this case far worse for the EU.

a reply to: alldaylong

The US caused all this #show in the first place. Ten billion spent over twelve years to implement the coup in 2014 and installing a puppet in Ukraine. Then use the Minsk agreement, which was never intended to be honoured, to strengthen the Ukrainian military knowing the Russians would respond to the unrest in the Donbass.
It has all worked out perfectly for the US. This was the only way they could corner the European energy market. It also covers the non-stop production of military hardware and keeps the conveyor belt moving.

At some point I hope the US is held accountable for all the death and destruction it is responsible for.

a reply to: midicon

There is a far simpler reason.

Russia has had 2 madmen in power as President over the last 23 years.

All down to them.

a reply to: alldaylong

Was Preident Bush a madman?

originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: alldaylong

Was Preident Bush a madman?

When he President Of Russia ?

originally posted by: alldaylong

originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: alldaylong

Was Preident Bush a madman?

When he President Of Russia ?

You called Putin a madman and went back 23 years. I asked about the US president who was in power when the long term strategy regarding Ukraine was being implemented. Of course we can't mention what he did to the ME, that would be mad wouldn't it? He can kill a million and be perfectly sane!

Your inability to answer in a thoughtful manner tells me all I need to know.

a reply to: midicon

Did Bush ever threaten to launch nukes like those 2 rabid dogs in Russia have on numerous ocassions ?

a reply to: alldaylong

Putin reminded us what is at stake here. Bush didn't ever have to mention nukes, he was too busy with his turkey shoot in Iraq.

You didn't answer my question. To be fair I didn't think you would, so that's on me for replying to your post. I'll leave it there and leave you to your projections.

a reply to: midicon

i didn't answer your question because you got your facts wrong.

Clinton not Bush.