My Freedom, Your Freedom

a reply to: pthena

Yeah. I'm not going to change the balance. Not with guns. Not with words.

We don't get to see the epiphany moving people, once they had some alone time to actually ponder said words.

And I'll gladly admit, that others changed my balance in similar ways as well. Just a little calibration each time, but those small steps did add up to giant leaps eventually.

Do not give up, old friend!

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Terpene

As many on the left have pointed out, freedom is also the ability to willingly give away your freedom and the freedom of others.

Freedom seems such an ugly word from the left unless they speak of freedom from responsibility or freedom from individuality or even freedom from speaking freely or freedom from owning firearms.

But (like the left) we'll all own our own definitions to what freedom actually is, what it means, and what it is worth.

strongly disagree

freedom is innate, that means it is your identity

it cant be signed away unless you surender who you are and become just some stuff, a utility or a toy

by definition you are no longer a person

so no, it isnt possible unless the constitution itself is modified to redact our humanity

my two cents

No one going to point out the allusion in the songs lyrics to the famous nazi phrase "arbeit macht frei"?
That it's also an explanation on how modern day Capitalism more or less touts the same.

I guess subtleties like those fly right over ones head if you're not very well versed in another language...

originally posted by: SigmaXSquared

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Terpene

As many on the left have pointed out, freedom is also the ability to willingly give away your freedom and the freedom of others.

Freedom seems such an ugly word from the left unless they speak of freedom from responsibility or freedom from individuality or even freedom from speaking freely or freedom from owning firearms.

But (like the left) we'll all own our own definitions to what freedom actually is, what it means, and what it is worth.

strongly disagree

freedom is innate, that means it is your identity

it cant be signed away unless you surender who you are and become just some stuff, a utility or a toy

by definition you are no longer a person

so no, it isnt possible unless the constitution itself is modified to redact our humanity

my two cents

I think that we have the ability (the freedom) to vote away our freedoms.

We're seeing it now.


As a previous poster said brilliantly, security is the antithesis of freedom.

a reply to: Terpene

I guess subtleties like those fly right over ones head if you're not very well versed in another language...

Well yeah.
Now that I got the translation, puts a slightly different meaning to it. But maybe not.

That would make the "train to freedom" the train to the concentration (work) camps.

originally posted by: Terpene

Bluntly said, every time one sees his freedom threatened, and there is no actual threat on his basic needs, he's engaging in freedom erosion...

One day you find yourself wrapped up like a bubble boy in a padded room and they will say, well you are safe now. Look at the Patriot Act which seems to never get repealed though was for a "short" purpose as people still do not understand it was the greatest freedom grab in our history that was all done to keep us "safe".

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Terpene

Bluntly said, every time one sees his freedom threatened, and there is no actual threat on his basic needs, he's engaging in freedom erosion...

One day you find yourself wrapped up like a bubble boy in a padded room and they will say, well you are safe now. Look at the Patriot Act which seems to never get repealed though was for a "short" purpose as people still do not understand it was the greatest freedom grab in our history that was all done to keep us "safe".

Look at the 2nd biggest grab with covid and what they did.

a reply to: pthena

It's layered...
It adresses many of the dynamics we see, and we understand instinctively that something isn't right about it...

He writes some very good socially critical lyrics and he didn't use YouTube as inspiration, so he's adressing stuff from around him.

a reply to: DBCowboy

I guess you're still thinking how to word that argument, or is it that you don't actually have one?

originally posted by: DBCowboy

Look at the 2nd biggest grab with covid and what they did.

The mandates were just a test run for the big one coming. They wanted to see how many Americans would jump over the freedom cliff like lemmings. It wasn't just for the people either. It was a test to see how many Governors just leaped too and it was almost a perfect success story.

originally posted by: Terpene
a reply to: DBCowboy

I guess you're still think how to word that argument, or is it that you don't actually have one?

My position on Covid and Covid response was and has been clear from the start.

a reply to: DBCowboy

the topic is not covid...

I guess that's it then... There is no argument to lose?

Changing topic just means you admit either defeat in an non defined argument or you have none?

Thinking before reacting always helps...

originally posted by: Terpene
a reply to: DBCowboy

the topic is not covid...

I guess that's it then... There is no argument to lose?

Changing topic just means you admit either defeat in an non defined argument or you have none?

Thinking before reacting always helps...

???

Covid is just an example of freedoms lost, freedoms ceded by people.

Freedom is very fragile, it get abused constantly, it gets tried and tested constantly.

People have to be vigilant.

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: SigmaXSquared

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Terpene

As many on the left have pointed out, freedom is also the ability to willingly give away your freedom and the freedom of others.

Freedom seems such an ugly word from the left unless they speak of freedom from responsibility or freedom from individuality or even freedom from speaking freely or freedom from owning firearms.

But (like the left) we'll all own our own definitions to what freedom actually is, what it means, and what it is worth.

strongly disagree

freedom is innate, that means it is your identity

it cant be signed away unless you surender who you are and become just some stuff, a utility or a toy

by definition you are no longer a person

so no, it isnt possible unless the constitution itself is modified to redact our humanity

my two cents

I think that we have the ability (the freedom) to vote away our freedoms.

We're seeing it now.


As a previous poster said brilliantly, security is the antithesis of freedom.

voting away liberties outlined in the constitution is unlawful

therein lies the crux

a reply to: Terpene

It's layered...
It adresses many of the dynamics we see, and we understand instinctively that something isn't right about it...

Yes. I see that now.

When he misses the train that carries him to freedom
When he doesn't see the train and unnecessarily complicates everything
Yes yes, then there are rules he has to respect
Then his employer might say to him:

Figuring "train that carries him to freedom" which he missed, to be the boxcars to the camps. That's a lot of people who missed that train.
The second line could very well be the "good German", a post war coinage referring to those who could recite a certain litany, which I actually heard before as a child, "I was only being a good citizen. I never saw any trains. I had no idea what was happening."

Post war, even the "Good German" is subject to the rules he or she may or may not have any part in setting. It's as if Georg Kreisler is putting blame on the good German for complicating things for him/herself. Did I mention that his family fled to the U.S. to escape the Nazis. Austrian. So think Sound of Music. Von Trapps leaving Austria because Germany annexed Austria.

We're all good Germans now. If we put ourselves in their place. Are atrocities happening with us unaware? Most likely.

a reply to: DBCowboy

Ok... I'm glad you got that stuck panty out, took you long enough.

a reply to: Terpene

Freedom is a big word and it encompasses many things.

that varies from culture to culture it doesn't even have the same meaning within english speaking world, or remain constant.

your ideas will probably be as far removed from mine as mine are from those 50 miles away in London..

my specific sliver of English has a motto "we are not sheep to be driven" and its the basis of my context of freedom as personal sovereignty and free expression, I also grew up in a tolerant liberal city famed for its "do no harm" mantra so for me true freedom is a mix of being free to express yourself and being free to seek redemption if I f*ck up, as sometimes saying things out loud you realise how wrong they might actually be.. its why daylight is for, its the best cleanser for secrets.

we live in world that is filled with corruption and lies, that believes in the sins of the parent are passed to the child and that redemption is impossible for most so encourages secrets which fester into nasty infections.

we live in the opposite of a free society, one I'd say is on the brink of collapse/renewal.. as more people try to decide what sovereignty means in the face of an over reaching state.,

I'm in the Hobbes camp that describes us all having 2 minds the political mind and the sovereign mind, when both are aligned no laws are needed as everyone has the same expectations same freedoms and society is stable, the further out of alignment those 2 elements gets the more laws are needed to keep everyone in check thus the fewer freedoms people have and the more unstable society gets.

we live in a period of deep instability caused by the state pivoting from allowing all unless illegal to banning all unless legal, its the same with the concept of innocent until proven innocent as we now appear to be moving to a world of guilty until proven innocent.

the Hobbes outlook was his view of the drivers pre/post English civils wars that framed the need for a bill of rights to enshrine various freedoms in law too prevent political over reach that led to the wars.. the kind of over reach we see today in every facet of life.

the question is how closely we risk recreating past events due to state over reach.

originally posted by: SigmaXSquared

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: SigmaXSquared

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Terpene

As many on the left have pointed out, freedom is also the ability to willingly give away your freedom and the freedom of others.

Freedom seems such an ugly word from the left unless they speak of freedom from responsibility or freedom from individuality or even freedom from speaking freely or freedom from owning firearms.

But (like the left) we'll all own our own definitions to what freedom actually is, what it means, and what it is worth.

strongly disagree

freedom is innate, that means it is your identity

it cant be signed away unless you surender who you are and become just some stuff, a utility or a toy

by definition you are no longer a person

so no, it isnt possible unless the constitution itself is modified to redact our humanity

my two cents

I think that we have the ability (the freedom) to vote away our freedoms.

We're seeing it now.


As a previous poster said brilliantly, security is the antithesis of freedom.

voting away liberties outlined in the constitution is unlawful

therein lies the crux

and creates the kinds of events that are linked to the conception of "an agreement of the people" or "we the people" thinking

originally posted by: Terpene
a reply to: DBCowboy

that's just your opinion...

I'm not here for winning anything, not even sure what the argument is you claim there is a looser?
Maybe you can lay it out with a couple of sentences on the topic of the OP?

Not some random political divisiveness that doesn't adress any of the OP except the dichotomous political talking points that are triggered by the word freedom...

Right there, you yourself have described the problem we have in America today.

If someone doesn't agree with your opinion, then their opinion is not an opinion, but random political divisiveness. You've loosed the defining moment and all it does is make you the loser.

a reply to: TrulyColorBlind

or makes it easier to see the 2 camps those who believe in personal sovereignty and those who do not..