At What Point Do We Decide?

originally posted by: Techno92LFC
a reply to: Arbitrageur

Why does inter dimensional sound like nonsense from a science perspective? That’s pretty close minded to say isn’t it?

If you don't know science it sounds pretty cool. But if you know science, then you have to do things in science like define your terms. The way we have them defined right now, there is no way the laws of physics would work with more than three dimensions, if they are bigger than a proton, and we have TONS of documented evidence that support our physics models work in 3 dimensions of space and one of time. The extra dimensions in quantum mechanics or string theory that Grush referred to, if they exist, have to be smaller than a proton, so don't work for explaining aliens, which can't have any complexity if they are smaller than a proton, in fact the only things we can imagine smaller than a proton are subatomic particles.

Therefore since everything we see seems to operate in 3 dimensions of space and one of time, the interdimensional hypothesis, without any further explanation than saying "interdimensional", sounds like pseudoscience. If these other dimensions existed, why do all our observations by physicists suggest that they don't exist and that exactly 3 dimensions of space and one of time explain observations? There are no valid physical theories I know of that would be able to use this as an explanation for UFOs, because UFOs are visible to humans, the US navy even released some videos of them and so we have them in pictures and videos.

Saying UFOs are interdimensional means nothing to a physicist because it's taking one unknown (UFOs) and trying to explain it with another unknown, that sounds pseudoscientific since it contradicts observation. That doesn't really get you anywhere, it just adds a layer of unnecessary complexity, when we are better off saying we don't know what all the UFOs are. That shouldn't be too surprising. In the case of the US Navy UFO videos, the UFOs are probably too far away to make any kind of positive identification; The sensors appear to be at their highest magnification setting in the FLIR ufo video for example and it's still a fuzzy blob.

Here is a physicist opining on the IDH-Interdimensional or extra dimension claims:

Higher Dimensions in Physics and Mathematics!

Pseudoscientists lean heavily on the assumption that their readers will know absolutely nothing about science or math. This is a pretty safe assumption, alas. And it requires no effort on the part of the pseudoscientist, because he also invariably knows no science or math either.

It is worth summarizing the ways in which the various concepts of "higher dimensions'' gradually diffused out from legitimate math and science, through hundreds of increasingly distorted, confused and muddled journalistic presentations and sensationalizations, into late 19th Century science fiction and 20th Century pseudoscience.

In the late 19th Century mathematicians became increasingly interested in the foundations of geometry. Our own universe has 3 space dimensions. But what would geometry be like if there were 4 space dimensions? Or 5? Or 10? Or an arbitrary number? Or an infinite number? Mathematicians worked a great deal on geometries with arbitrary numbers of space dimensions.
...
In 1915, Einstein found a more general description of gravitational phenomena, in which the density of matter directly determines the "curvature'' of 4-dimensional space-time. That is, his theory of gravity was purely geometrical. The amount of matter determines the type of geometry that exists in the surrounding space. Other matter travels along the straightest possible trajectory in this curved space-time...

The structure of all known physical laws demands that our universe have only 3 extended space dimensions. For example, the fact— established and confirmed by experiment consistently for nearly 400 years— that all long-range interactions, such as gravity and the radiation field of the electromagnetic force, fall off like the inverse square of the distance, demands that space be precisely 3 dimensional.

But what about the 10 or 11 dimensions in string theory or M theory?

A typical string theory had 9 or 10 space dimensions and 1 time dimension. The extra space dimensions had to be there to incorporate phenomena other than gravity geometrically, but they could not "actually'' be there or the theory would not have worked. The solution was to curl these extra dimensions up mathematically into tight "wads'' no more than 10^-35 meters in length, a process called "compaction." The extra dimensions would thus be "compact," and indetectable.

So those extra dimensions in string or M theory are useless for the interdimensional UFO hypothesis, since nobody is seeing UFOs smaller than 10^-35 meters in length, that's too small to see. That's 100 million trillion times smaller than a proton which is roughly 10^-15 meters.

Now if you want scientists to be open minded, give them something to be open-minded about. Define an interdimensional in a way that doesn't contradict observations, which so far I have not seen done, and it certainly has not been done by Grush. If you can't do that, you're better off saying you don't know what they are, instead of making up some term like "interdimensional" to explain them, when you can't even define what that term means!

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: Itherael

originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: spaceflyr

One, they are from somewhere far out in the universe.
Two, they are from deep within our oceans.
Three, they are inter dimensional.

One and three are definitely out.
No way the energy required for either could be generated by such small craft .
The energy of the universe generated within a 40' diameter craft ?????

Whose to say they are craft all? What if they are apertures that break into our dimension? That could explain why they appear to break the laws of known physics.

Still requires infinite energy .

the only infinite thing is human stupidity.

originally posted by: nugget1
a reply to: putnam6

4 years and 40 different witnesses

I bet there are a thousand witnesses that could be interviewed about the Phoenix lights; that doesn't mean they came from outer space.

One, they are from somewhere far out in the universe.
Two, they are from deep within our oceans.
Three, they are inter dimensional.

You forgot number 4: It's in the realm of possibilities UAP's are a top secret product of our MIC.

We'll never learn the truth if we're only going to consider the 'evidence' we want to be true.

Ufology became a cult, followed by millions who wanted to believe anecdotal evidence. After being ridiculed by authorities for decades they're all jumping at the opportunity for finally being validated.

We would be wise to take a step back and consider why TPTB are now not only allowing but also supporting an ET Overlord belief system.

Just wanted to point out, Nugget Im not saying ALIENz!! ALIENz!!! from outer space, as I've been accused of by more than a few, ironically on a website that used to have major space alien promoters, posts, and threads.

I'm open to all possibilities including it's our DoD's own devices, and they are allowing this story to misdirect, coverup to keep Russia, China, and others in the dark, or a multitude of other reasons.

Who knows perhaps it's all a hologram that somehow can mimic a radar signature? After all our DoD admitted during the Chinese balloon flap our radars aren't foolproof either.

or that was the story... suffice it to say the higher up it goes the less I believe their explanations.

Im 59 I expect to live another 15 to 20 years, I have no expectations we will have the full story before I croak.

If and it's a BIGIFthere is something dimensional, extraterrestrial, or aquatic It's been hidden and denied for too long to it all be disclosed at once.

If past disclosures are any indication.

originally posted by: putnam6
It's fairly in-depth, 4 years and 40 different witnesses and they all were lying to Grusch? that in itself would suggest a disinformation campaign. Why would the DoD do this to an investigator, who by all accounts has impeccable character and scruples?

Why did Richard Doty lie to Paul Bennewicz? Why were we all lied to in project Serpo? Why is the US and the UK training agents on how to spread false information (this was reveled in the Snowden leaks)?

A spook’s guide to the psychology of deception

You really haven't realized any of this yet? Or if you have, why would you find it so implausible? We are lied to every day about many things. I'm not saying Grusch is lying, there really is a story about a Mussolini related UFO circulating, which he has apparently heard and believes. But that story is not very believable, and if you have any experience researching UFOs, hopefully you have realized that lots of the circulating stories have problems. That you don't think the US government would consider using these stories to their advantage if they saw an advantage seems rather naive. The department of defense might not be as active as the intelligence community, the latter being where Elizondo and Grusch gained experience. But even the defense department works on projects to fool the enemy with deception, like the ability to make confusing swarms of non-existent aircraft appear on their radar when situations call for that.

The Navy’s Secretive And Revolutionary Program To Project False Fleets From Drone Swarms

After a period of Glasnost beginning in the '90s the US is back to sort of a cold war state with Russia and maybe even China, and in war, cold or hot, deception is a strategy. Actually the war with Russia isn't even cold, it's a proxy war. If the US wants Russia and China to believe the propaganda, maybe they figure that will be easier if they can get their own citizens to believe it first, and these congressional hearings might seem to give the claims some kind of legitimacy (in spite of not having any legitimate evidence available so far). So if Russia and China come to believe that tue US has secret advanced technology that they reverse engineered from alien craft, what effect would that have on Russia and China? Whether it's actually true or not is a separate issue, but it may have a similar effect either way, so there's one possible motive for deception but not the only one.

originally posted by: spaceflyr
One, they are from somewhere far out in the universe.
Two, they are from deep within our oceans.
Three, they are inter dimensional.

There is a Fourth, and more likely, possibility.

Four, they're based right here in our own solar system.

Coming from a central base, what we are seeing are just "scout" ships. Did you ever see the episode of Star Trek called "For The World Is Hollow And I Have Touched The Sky?" That may be a clue to what their homebase is like. That or the Death Star would be another good analogy. The ancient Sumerians talked about these ships and the "gods" that flew them. And how these "gods" created the perfect miners to dig and facilitate the gold needed for these ships to operate.

Of course it will not be revealed to the general public as to who controls these ships because it's not yet time for the public to know. These UFO hearings are all smoke and mirrors, signifying nothing.


TCB

originally posted by: jedi_hamster

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: Itherael

originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: spaceflyr

One, they are from somewhere far out in the universe.
Two, they are from deep within our oceans.
Three, they are inter dimensional.

One and three are definitely out.
No way the energy required for either could be generated by such small craft .
The energy of the universe generated within a 40' diameter craft ?????

Whose to say they are craft all? What if they are apertures that break into our dimension? That could explain why they appear to break the laws of known physics.

Still requires infinite energy .

the only infinite thing is human stupidity.

Missed ya around the boards, or was it just the unfamiliarity with the new avatar? Regardless good to see another ATS veteran longtimer

a reply to: spaceflyr

I think we are all being skunked.

Do we believe what we see, experience, or are told?

Or do we believe what we want or are told to believe?

UAP or UFO? Tomāto, tomahto. What they want us to know.

www.merriam-webster.com...

originally posted by: TrulyColorBlind

originally posted by: spaceflyr
One, they are from somewhere far out in the universe.
Two, they are from deep within our oceans.
Three, they are inter dimensional.

There is a Fourth, and more likely, possibility.

Four, they're based right here in our own solar system.

Coming from a central base, what we are seeing are just "scout" ships. Did you ever see the episode of Star Trek called "For The World Is Hollow And I Have Touched The Sky?" That may be a clue to what their homebase is like. That or the Death Star would be another good analogy. The ancient Sumerians talked about these ships and the "gods" that flew them. And how these "gods" created the perfect miners to dig and facilitate the gold needed for these ships to operate.

Of course it will not be revealed to the general public as to who controls these ships because it's not yet time for the public to know. These UFO hearings are all smoke and mirrors, signifying nothing.


TCB

If you are gonna speak with such surety, then that would mean 4 years ago Grusch started investigating all of the stories just for the right time to pop it on the world and hardly anybody gives a chit. I only found it live on News Nation.

If not map out the 5 W's of your personal smoke and mirrors hypothesis

completely open to the theory BTW but the devil is in the details. Is it just because the DoD enjoys the freedom to develop technology beyond the purveyance of Congressional oversight?

Did the DoD do this because certain members of Congress have questionable ties to China?

Semi Tom Clancyish but its a realistic possiblity

a reply to: Arbitrageur

"Three dimensions of space, plus one of time".


It seems to me that, it is that "plus one" that is tossing a spanner into the whole "do they exist/how can they get here?" debacle.


We can easily describe the three basic dimensions, and thus comprehend how they relate to each other. But it is a slightly different story when "Time" mixes into the fold.


What is "Time", after all? (No cheating by falling on the old "Time is a/the fourth dimension, the fourth dimension is Time" tautology!)


"Distance" is often explained as the "space(time) between two points/objects"; which is another way of estimating the amount of Time that exists between them.


But "Time" is not a "quantity", it is a single "whole"; a "dimension", indivisible in its reality.


When we refer to "an inch", "a meter", "a dozen miles", for example, we are most definitely not "removing" that particular piece of "space" from the dimension(s) of space(time).

But we seem to comprehend that "plus one" dimension of Time quite differently.


Now suppose our NHI's do not comprehend that "plus one" as the infinitely divisible entity we perceive?


If you could not perceive Time as a continuous progression of past to future - if it all was just "now"....

How would that impact your comprehension of "Space" as being "three dimensions plus one"?



A "worldview" like that might make travel appear "interdimensional" to a "3+1" human.


Might even be so incomprehensible to our primate brains (at their current level of evolution) as to induce hallucinations, psychosis, maybe even complete collapse. Definitely a hazard any concerned authority would want to guard against...as best as possible, for as long as possible.


Then again, we can't hide in our caves forever, right?

a reply to: putnam6

Who knows perhaps it's all a hologram that somehow can mimic a radar signature?

I'm pretty sure that's not the case; I've personally seen far too many, with each one being totally different.

I think the main reason I'm digging my heels in on 'disclosure' is because it seems all too scripted; it's being 'revealed' way too fast.

One would think i believe our government is way too corrupt to be doing this without some devious agenda preparing us for the next step in our enslavement. lol

I'm trying to think of any congressional investigation that didn't muddy the waters and leave even more questions than answers.....all at the enormous $$$$$ of the taxpayers.

I have had one so-called 'paranormal' experience that has me convinced there is far more to our reality than we're aware of. The government started investigating the woo side of life in the 1920's and it continues today; I think the true discoveries and knowledge is cloaked in secrecy.

I bet they've known this for decades:

Scientists have demonstrated that human genes can be controlled with electricity, a breakthrough that could pave the way toward wearable devices that program genes to perform medical interventions, reports a new study.

When past scientists have suggested electricity affects our physical being they've been shut down and laughed out of the field. I guess we only get to know the bits of truth that's been 'sanctioned' for whatever purpose they wish to use on us.
[www.vice.com...]

originally posted by: spaceflyr
I see three ideas that seem to come to the forefront;
One, they are from somewhere far out in the universe.
Two, they are from deep within our oceans.
Three, they are inter dimensional.

I see more, but most of all I think that expecting only one explanation for all the different types of sightings is limiting the possibilities, so my first point of view is that it's even possible that all the three possibilities above are possible and I would add these:

Four: some of them are created by humans;
Five: some of them are misinterpretation of other phenomena;
Six: some of them are natural phenomena we haven't identified yet.

a reply to: spaceflyr

I think the current UAP's are, from what little Grusch has said, are possibly interdimensional or time travellers.

As for Demons, the idea of an advanced civilization with tech which made our ancient ancestors see them as God's, Angels, Demons etc. Far more plausible than an omnipotent God who wants the Ants in his Ant Farm's worship.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

What about the other two witnesses at the hearing?

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Also your point about interdimensional possibilities, Grusch did a good job of explaining how a Higher Dimension can be projected on a lower dimension.

When we cast a shadow on a comic book, we are projecting on to the 2D. Easiest explanation of Interdimensional Interaction I've heard yet.

Methinks you doth complain too much...

originally posted by: Gothmog

One and three are definitely out.
No way the energy required for either could be generated by such small craft .
The energy of the universe generated within a 40' diameter craft ?????

What about the unlimited free energy Tesla spoke of? I they have the level of Tech that allows them to travel at speeds and perform manouvers that no human being nor craft could perform, never mind withstand, then surely they will have harnessed that. They clearly have tech beyond our ken. They will be far more economical with their energy consumption and likely have ways of enhancing the energy they do get before it's used.

We can only think about these things in human terms. All we are doing is guessing. We just can't understand how they do what they do.

a reply to: Gothmog

One and three are definitely out.
No way the energy required for either could be generated by such small craft .

They wouldn't have to , they would use a mothership to get here and smaller ships to explore planets.

Our understanding of physics and propulsion are by no means complete so who knows what is possible and what elements they might have that we don't.

A team of researchers has discovered at least two new minerals that have never before been seen on Earth in a 15 tonne meteorite found in Somalia — the ninth largest meteorite ever found.

“Whenever you find a new mineral, it means that the actual geological conditions, the chemistry of the rock, was different than what’s been found before,” says Chris Herd, a professor in the Department of Earth & Atmospheric Sciences and curator of the University of Alberta’s Meteorite Collection. “That’s what makes this exciting: In this particular meteorite you have two officially described minerals that are new to science.”
www.ualberta.ca...

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: Itherael

originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: spaceflyr

One, they are from somewhere far out in the universe.
Two, they are from deep within our oceans.
Three, they are inter dimensional.

One and three are definitely out.
No way the energy required for either could be generated by such small craft .
The energy of the universe generated within a 40' diameter craft ?????

Whose to say they are craft all? What if they are apertures that break into our dimension? That could explain why they appear to break the laws of known physics.

Still requires infinite energy .

From our understanding which is to say, we don't...

I think all the information we need will be coming from the guys at Skin Walker Ranch.
They have scientific equipment's like Gigor counters and Ocillescopes to track the UFO. Soon
all their information will be available then we'll know what's up! There scientiests.

originally posted by: gortex
Our understanding of physics and propulsion are by no means complete so who knows what is possible and what elements they might have that we don't.

Minerals are not elements.

a reply to: Itherael

Not sure of your scientific basis to say they require "infinite" energy,

E=MC^2