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Russian Military Blogger Killed And Six Others Injured In Explosion At St Petersburg Cafe
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a reply to: TheRedneck
Doesn't matter what the West wants. We have long-standing agreements about how to conduct ourselves as nations and Russia is using the documents as TP. Again those drafts they released in Nov 2021, the world raised an eyebrow and laughed (metaphorically) and rightly so, imho.
I never accused you of saying capitulate to Russia, but that's the only option given the mindset. Do look at those documents, I'll link them after... It wasn't even a starting point of communication. It was a list of nuttiness to bake a crazy cake.
The invasion happened, in the 21st century. Russia genuinely thought it could bs the world with training missions and special operations.
A war time economy?
I'm sorry but Russia hasn't seen anything if it thinks it's fighting NATO or anything but reserve stocks and outdated equipment. Ukrainians are not trained on advanced NATO standard equipment, nor do they adhere to the tactics or anything like that.
I really don't want to see war, I wouldn't be allowed to fight anyways but I could do my bit here and there. Definitely would against what I see. Can Russia say the same about it's citizens? I'm barely a shouter but some things I'd happily go nuts for.
This is turning into one of them.
I mean I could do comparisons to catch you out, things akin to "beating the wife" questions but what's the point? We both know that placating a wounded animal that abuses on a good day is a terrible idea.
Standing up doesn't cost money. Neither does sitting down. Putin's the problem. He could do us all a favour and spend a few rubles on a 9mm and do the job himself... Then what?
It's not so simple as saying the west wants Russia gone. Same with China. We want them to act like civilised human beings and frankly our leaders never do enough to express a lot of our (the plebs) dissatisfaction. That's not to lump my opinions with yours or anything, I'm sure you catch my drift.
We empowered these nations.
NATO-Russia Relations Draft
US-Russia relations draft
In hopes of maybe ending the invasion, stopping the killing, and returning the captured areas to Ukraine.
Unless we just don't really want that. I am admittedly making an assumption about what the West wants here.
Doesn't matter what the West wants. We have long-standing agreements about how to conduct ourselves as nations and Russia is using the documents as TP. Again those drafts they released in Nov 2021, the world raised an eyebrow and laughed (metaphorically) and rightly so, imho.
Only if I wanted to end the invasion, stop the killing, and return the captured areas to Ukraine. Otherwise, I wouldn't.
I never accused you of saying capitulate to Russia, but that's the only option given the mindset. Do look at those documents, I'll link them after... It wasn't even a starting point of communication. It was a list of nuttiness to bake a crazy cake.
The invasion happened, in the 21st century. Russia genuinely thought it could bs the world with training missions and special operations.
Damn, I'm afraid to imagine what you would consider "standing up"! We've already bankrupted the USA and depleted US military reserves, tried to sanction everything we possibly could think of, and even said mean things about Putin. Andy06shake wants him dead.
How many trillions of dollars constitutes "standing up"?
A war time economy?
I'm sorry but Russia hasn't seen anything if it thinks it's fighting NATO or anything but reserve stocks and outdated equipment. Ukrainians are not trained on advanced NATO standard equipment, nor do they adhere to the tactics or anything like that.
I really don't want to see war, I wouldn't be allowed to fight anyways but I could do my bit here and there. Definitely would against what I see. Can Russia say the same about it's citizens? I'm barely a shouter but some things I'd happily go nuts for.
This is turning into one of them.
I mean I could do comparisons to catch you out, things akin to "beating the wife" questions but what's the point? We both know that placating a wounded animal that abuses on a good day is a terrible idea.
Standing up doesn't cost money. Neither does sitting down. Putin's the problem. He could do us all a favour and spend a few rubles on a 9mm and do the job himself... Then what?
It's not so simple as saying the west wants Russia gone. Same with China. We want them to act like civilised human beings and frankly our leaders never do enough to express a lot of our (the plebs) dissatisfaction. That's not to lump my opinions with yours or anything, I'm sure you catch my drift.
We empowered these nations.
NATO-Russia Relations Draft
US-Russia relations draft
edit on 7-4-2023 by RAY1990 because: Add link
edit on 7-4-2023 by RAY1990 because: More to add, clarity and
link
edit on 7-4-2023 by RAY1990 because: 2nd link found
a reply to: TheRedneck
Allegedly Putin was provided with poor intelligence, not that its in anyway an excuse for his antics.
In war winning is always the objective, no two ways about that.
Peace, well peace is about cooperation and compromise.
I've never advocated for invading Russia, simply wish to see them go back home and leave Ukraine alone. You have stated a few things now that are simply wrong for instance claiming i said Russia would be defeated within 400 days.
How do you know what's been tried or said at a diplomatic level?
If armed men broke into your house and started to annex and occupy rooms would you negotiate with them or shoot first and ask questions later?
Because that's what Putin and the Russia federation forces are doing in Ukraine by way of invasion and annexation.
Some situations are simply non-negotiable.
Because Putin would never do anything like that to his adversaries or opposition.
Sometimes you need to be willing to take responsibility for your actions, if Putin expects a viable future for his nation, it may be best that he falls on his sword given that forgiveness is most likely not exactly a tenable prospect, at least where Ukraine is concerned.
I'm sure people like Adolf Hitler thought the same and look how that one turned out.
What is it you expect to be able to offer Putin that would possibly make him pick up stix take his forces back home and return the stolen land to Ukraine?
Again some people simply cannot be negotiated with and Putin looks to be one of them.
Why should anyone ask Putin what he wants whilst his forces continue to attack and occupy parts of Ukraine?
Dealing from weakness tends to end badly you see.
That just sounds like nonsense to me TheRedneck as is hardly about what i want. What are you going on about?
Because Russia are in the wrong postcode springs to mind, that's why.
NATO nations did not just decide to pick on Russia for something to do, they are supporting Ukraine because of what Russia did, aka telling multiple lies about mere military exercises being nothing to worry about and then going on to invade under the guise of hunting Nazis.
Again its more than just America that's standing with and supporting Ukraine, as to the rest of NATO doing what the US tells them, i really don't think that's how it works, soundly like something Trump would come away with to be honest.
Pretty hard to give you someone else's perspective given the very personal nature of the beat in question.
If you cannot see the problems, logistically speaking, where the policing and defense of a border, that is now twice the size, that Russia will have to contend with, given their already diminished military force, i have to ponder why?
Because that one is a dozzy and a half given the military forces that Sweden and Finland bring to the NATO table.
That sounds like an excuse to me, there is no justification for the blood on Putins paws, as to the why of it, well that's rather obvious, Putin wishes to see Russia become a global power once again reminiscent of the former USSR and he though occupying Ukraine would be a step in that direction.
Wishful thinking TheRedneck, not that i would not like to see exactly that happen.
Oh, i think we will still be having the same to similar conversations come the same time next year, by my guess this in not going to be over anytime soon as unfortunate as the case may be.
Ta.
I don't disagree with that. The invasion was a bad thing. Period. It should never have happened.
Allegedly Putin was provided with poor intelligence, not that its in anyway an excuse for his antics.
Let me turn a phrase on you here:
"War is hell TheRedneck, but winning is the objective, else why bother to have peace?
Sounds like the same meaning to me.
In war winning is always the objective, no two ways about that.
Peace, well peace is about cooperation and compromise.
You did not say the Russian invasion needed to be subdued; you said Russia needs to be subdued. Those are two different things.
I've never advocated for invading Russia, simply wish to see them go back home and leave Ukraine alone. You have stated a few things now that are simply wrong for instance claiming i said Russia would be defeated within 400 days.
I will agree that such would likely be completely unfruitful. However, I have to point out that even that has not been tried. The second word got out of one Russian soldier on Ukrainian soil, the response was set: GET OUT OR ELSE!
I don't disagree with that, but it was not exactly what I would call "asking nicely."
How do you know what's been tried or said at a diplomatic level?
I wouldn't consider that a good negotiation tactic.
If armed men broke into your house and started to annex and occupy rooms would you negotiate with them or shoot first and ask questions later?
Because that's what Putin and the Russia federation forces are doing in Ukraine by way of invasion and annexation.
Some situations are simply non-negotiable.
I'm less worried about Putin becoming a martyr in himself than I am the signal that would send to the rest of the non-Westernized globe: "Do as we say or we will kill your leader, too."
Because Putin would never do anything like that to his adversaries or opposition.
Let me ask you this: if you were to have a slight change of heart and decide to negotiate with Putin, seeing as it seems his death is the only result you would ever be satisfied with, how do you think he would respond? How would you respond if someone sat across from you and said, "The only solution is if you kill yourself. Then we can talk about the problem."
Sometimes you need to be willing to take responsibility for your actions, if Putin expects a viable future for his nation, it may be best that he falls on his sword given that forgiveness is most likely not exactly a tenable prospect, at least where Ukraine is concerned.
Like it or not the Russian people elected Vladimir Putin to be their leader. He is in charge. It is he who must be negotiated with to achieve peace.
I'm sure people like Adolf Hitler thought the same and look how that one turned out.
What is it you expect to be able to offer Putin that would possibly make him pick up stix take his forces back home and return the stolen land to Ukraine?
Again some people simply cannot be negotiated with and Putin looks to be one of them.
Yeah, that's the problem in a nutshell. No one has asked him what he wants. Therefore no one knows what he wants. Oh, there are plenty of theories flying around, but wouldn't Putin know best what Putin wants?
Why should anyone ask Putin what he wants whilst his forces continue to attack and occupy parts of Ukraine?
Dealing from weakness tends to end badly you see.
Does andy06shake know what andy06shake wants? Or maybe others know what andy06shake wants better than andy06shake.
That just sounds like nonsense to me TheRedneck as is hardly about what i want. What are you going on about?
You tell me. It's been that way since long before the invasion, since long before Crimea, all the way back to the day the wall fell.
Because Russia are in the wrong postcode springs to mind, that's why.
NATO nations did not just decide to pick on Russia for something to do, they are supporting Ukraine because of what Russia did, aka telling multiple lies about mere military exercises being nothing to worry about and then going on to invade under the guise of hunting Nazis.
Th USA makes up the vast, vast bulk of the aid. The rest of NATO just does as the USA tells them to. And last I heard, some were starting to get cold feet since their own military reserves were being stretched thin.
Again its more than just America that's standing with and supporting Ukraine, as to the rest of NATO doing what the US tells them, i really don't think that's how it works, soundly like something Trump would come away with to be honest.
Well, that's your perspective. I doubt it's Putin's perspective.
Pretty hard to give you someone else's perspective given the very personal nature of the beat in question.
If you cannot see the problems, logistically speaking, where the policing and defense of a border, that is now twice the size, that Russia will have to contend with, given their already diminished military force, i have to ponder why?
Because that one is a dozzy and a half given the military forces that Sweden and Finland bring to the NATO table.
This is not Captain Planet. People do not just wake up one morning and decide to do horrific things. Something drives them to do it. Maybe that something is ridiculously minor with respect to their actions; maybe the thing that drove them is irrelevant to anyone else, but something does drive every such action.
That sounds like an excuse to me, there is no justification for the blood on Putins paws, as to the why of it, well that's rather obvious, Putin wishes to see Russia become a global power once again reminiscent of the former USSR and he though occupying Ukraine would be a step in that direction.
What drove this one? If we only knew, we cold perhaps negotiate and end the invasion, stop the killing, and return the captured areas to Ukraine.
Wishful thinking TheRedneck, not that i would not like to see exactly that happen.
Or we can ignore any causes, make our assumptions, and go another 400 days of Ukraine losing ground while draining the Western economies and strengthening the Russia-China alliance we have created.
Tough choice.
Oh, i think we will still be having the same to similar conversations come the same time next year, by my guess this in not going to be over anytime soon as unfortunate as the case may be.
Happy Easter to you as well.
Ta.
edit on 7-4-2023 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)
a reply to: RAY1990
Those documents aren't worth the paper they're printed on. If a country needs to, they will ignore them. All they do is give the population a reason to condemn whatever country is targeted at the time.
It certainly seemed like that was your intent.
I never cease to be amazed at how many people seem to know precisely what Vladimir Putin is thinking at any one time. That man has to be the most mind-read person in history. I guess I'm just dumb, because I still don't know what he is ever thinking, probably the only person left who doesn't.
Is there a website or phone app that reads his mind? I'd like to know more about what he's thinking.
Not sure how much that costs. Can you elaborate?
Strange... I have had others tell me in no uncertain terms that the Ukrainian fighting force is one of the best-trained on the planet and of course they are using NATO weapons. Now I hear the opposite? I actually pointed that dynamic out when the invasion was still young and I was lambasted for daring to question the veracity of the mighty Ukraine military.
I guess the narrative changed. Sorry, I'm not on the mailing list for the changes. Need to get on it, I guess. It's hard to keep up otherwise.
I wouldn't count on that. Sometimes the fight comes to us. No permission needed.
*shrug*
Been done so many times, why not? It doesn't mean anything except that the person doing it is childish.
The West is obsessed with controlling others; always has been. What we call civilized, other cultures call barbaric.
I live in one of the cultures the USA is busily cancelling. The Deep South had a rich culture which is quickly dissipating. People are no longer kind to each other; "Southern Hospitality" is disappearing at an alarming rate. Less and less people have ties to the land of their ancestors. Money has replaced respect as the primary social currency, and that has led to an increasing poverty rate and crime rate.
I do not consider any of that "civilized." If you do, we will have to agree to disagree. For my part, I choose to spend the rest of my days isolated from the barbarism I see invading my people disguised as "civilized." I am far, far away from others, save the precious few who agree with me. I am watching from afar. Eventually, "civilization" will catch up to me even here, and I will die defending my culture and home from "civilization."
I do not want your "civilization"; I would suspect neither do Russia and China.
TheRedneck
Doesn't matter what the West wants. We have long-standing agreements about how to conduct ourselves as nations and Russia is using the documents as TP.
Those documents aren't worth the paper they're printed on. If a country needs to, they will ignore them. All they do is give the population a reason to condemn whatever country is targeted at the time.
I never accused you of saying capitulate to Russia, but that's the only option given the mindset.
It certainly seemed like that was your intent.
I never cease to be amazed at how many people seem to know precisely what Vladimir Putin is thinking at any one time. That man has to be the most mind-read person in history. I guess I'm just dumb, because I still don't know what he is ever thinking, probably the only person left who doesn't.
Is there a website or phone app that reads his mind? I'd like to know more about what he's thinking.
A war time economy?
Not sure how much that costs. Can you elaborate?
I'm sorry but Russia hasn't seen anything if it thinks it's fighting NATO or anything but reserve stocks and outdated equipment. Ukrainians are not trained on advanced NATO standard equipment, nor do they adhere to the tactics or anything like that.
Strange... I have had others tell me in no uncertain terms that the Ukrainian fighting force is one of the best-trained on the planet and of course they are using NATO weapons. Now I hear the opposite? I actually pointed that dynamic out when the invasion was still young and I was lambasted for daring to question the veracity of the mighty Ukraine military.
I guess the narrative changed. Sorry, I'm not on the mailing list for the changes. Need to get on it, I guess. It's hard to keep up otherwise.
I really don't want to see war, I wouldn't be allowed to fight anyways
I wouldn't count on that. Sometimes the fight comes to us. No permission needed.
I mean I could do comparisons to catch you out, things akin to "beating the wife" questions but what's the point?
*shrug*
Been done so many times, why not? It doesn't mean anything except that the person doing it is childish.
It's not so simple as saying the west wants Russia gone. Same with China. We want them to act like civilised human beings and frankly our leaders never do enough to express a lot of our (the plebs) dissatisfaction.
The West is obsessed with controlling others; always has been. What we call civilized, other cultures call barbaric.
I live in one of the cultures the USA is busily cancelling. The Deep South had a rich culture which is quickly dissipating. People are no longer kind to each other; "Southern Hospitality" is disappearing at an alarming rate. Less and less people have ties to the land of their ancestors. Money has replaced respect as the primary social currency, and that has led to an increasing poverty rate and crime rate.
I do not consider any of that "civilized." If you do, we will have to agree to disagree. For my part, I choose to spend the rest of my days isolated from the barbarism I see invading my people disguised as "civilized." I am far, far away from others, save the precious few who agree with me. I am watching from afar. Eventually, "civilization" will catch up to me even here, and I will die defending my culture and home from "civilization."
I do not want your "civilization"; I would suspect neither do Russia and China.
TheRedneck
a reply to: andy06shake
I agree. That is exactly what I have been saying.
So, you are pro-war?
And killing their leader. Don't forget that one.
When did I say that? I think you misunderstood.
Fair enough; if it has been tried, it is a deep, dark secret that hasn't been mentioned once in the media.
Depends... are they better armed than me? Do I stand a better chance of escaping that situation by fighting or talking?
I would be most concerned with protecting my family, not vengeance against them when and if they ever left.
Yes, that certainly seems to apply to countries starting with the letter "R." What about countries starting with the letter "U"?
I wish I knew. I would first ask him why he invaded in the first place and go from there.
Do you think we (the USA and UK) look strong hiding behind Zelensky's skirt?
I'm trying to say that Vladimir Putin knows what he wants better than you do. You know what you want better than Putin does. I know what I want better than you do.
You are still trying to tell me what Putin wants... how about we ask Putin what he wants?
So you're telling me that we were antagonizing Russia back in 1990 because they would annex Crimea in 2014 and invade Ukraine in 2022? Really? Is that really what you're telling me?
That is exactly what NATO did. NATO was formed specifically to defend against Russia. Why did you think NATO was organized?
Trump was trying to stop the USA from supplying all the capital for NATO and forcing members to pay their dues as well... a move that would have made the other nations in NATO less dependent on the USA and more able to disagree with the USA.
Please tell me you are joking around... is this the first you have ever heard of NATO?
Exactly! So why have we not sat down with Putin and listened to what he has to say?
No, it's based on a thread I made a long, long time ago called the "Captain Planet Syndrome." In that show, the villains simply loved to do bad things... classic good vs. evil plot. In reality, people who do bad things do them because they think they are entitled to do so or because they feel they have no better choice. The world is not binary; people are not binary good or bad. People simply have different perspectives, and sometimes those perspectives clash.
Even Adolph Hitler (who I only bring up because you already did) thought he was doing what was right for Germany. Was it wrong? YES! Was it evil? YES! Did it require a war to stop him? YES! I do not dispute any of that. I only state that there is a reason Putin invaded Ukraine. We should endeavor to find out what that reason is. If it is something that is completely out of line, fine... defeat Putin. But it could be something that we have ignored in the past and then we could potentially stop this fighting by correcting that.
That is at least a chance for peace. Not a guarantee, but then again, the only guarantee we have is that if we don't try, this fighting will continue and people will keep dying on the battlefield. That is a guarantee.
It is wishful thinking as long as people keep demanding blood for blood.
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.
I agree. Is that what we want to happen?
TheRedneck
In war winning is always the objective, no two ways about that.
Peace, well peace is about cooperation and compromise.
I agree. That is exactly what I have been saying.
So, you are pro-war?
I've never advocated for invading Russia, simply wish to see them go back home and leave Ukraine alone.
And killing their leader. Don't forget that one.
You have stated a few things now that are simply wrong for instance claiming i said Russia would be defeated within 400 days.
When did I say that? I think you misunderstood.
How do you know what's been tried or said at a diplomatic level?
Fair enough; if it has been tried, it is a deep, dark secret that hasn't been mentioned once in the media.
If armed men broke into your house and started to annex and occupy rooms would you negotiate with them or shoot first and ask questions later?
Depends... are they better armed than me? Do I stand a better chance of escaping that situation by fighting or talking?
I would be most concerned with protecting my family, not vengeance against them when and if they ever left.
Sometimes you need to be willing to take responsibility for your actions
Yes, that certainly seems to apply to countries starting with the letter "R." What about countries starting with the letter "U"?
What is it you expect to be able to offer Putin that would possibly make him pick up stix take his forces back home and return the stolen land to Ukraine?
I wish I knew. I would first ask him why he invaded in the first place and go from there.
Why should anyone ask Putin what he wants whilst his forces continue to attack and occupy parts of Ukraine?
Dealing from weakness tends to end badly you see.
Do you think we (the USA and UK) look strong hiding behind Zelensky's skirt?
That just sounds like nonsense to me TheRedneck as is hardly about what i want. What are you going on about?
I'm trying to say that Vladimir Putin knows what he wants better than you do. You know what you want better than Putin does. I know what I want better than you do.
You are still trying to tell me what Putin wants... how about we ask Putin what he wants?
Because Russia are in the wrong postcode springs to mind, that's why.
So you're telling me that we were antagonizing Russia back in 1990 because they would annex Crimea in 2014 and invade Ukraine in 2022? Really? Is that really what you're telling me?
NATO nations did not just decide to pick on Russia for something to do
That is exactly what NATO did. NATO was formed specifically to defend against Russia. Why did you think NATO was organized?
Again its more than just America that's standing with and supporting Ukraine, as to the rest of NATO doing what the US tells them, i really don't think that's how it works, soundly like something Trump would come away with to be honest.
Trump was trying to stop the USA from supplying all the capital for NATO and forcing members to pay their dues as well... a move that would have made the other nations in NATO less dependent on the USA and more able to disagree with the USA.
Please tell me you are joking around... is this the first you have ever heard of NATO?
Pretty hard to give you someone else's perspective given the very personal nature of the beat in question.
Exactly! So why have we not sat down with Putin and listened to what he has to say?
That sounds like an excuse to me
No, it's based on a thread I made a long, long time ago called the "Captain Planet Syndrome." In that show, the villains simply loved to do bad things... classic good vs. evil plot. In reality, people who do bad things do them because they think they are entitled to do so or because they feel they have no better choice. The world is not binary; people are not binary good or bad. People simply have different perspectives, and sometimes those perspectives clash.
Even Adolph Hitler (who I only bring up because you already did) thought he was doing what was right for Germany. Was it wrong? YES! Was it evil? YES! Did it require a war to stop him? YES! I do not dispute any of that. I only state that there is a reason Putin invaded Ukraine. We should endeavor to find out what that reason is. If it is something that is completely out of line, fine... defeat Putin. But it could be something that we have ignored in the past and then we could potentially stop this fighting by correcting that.
That is at least a chance for peace. Not a guarantee, but then again, the only guarantee we have is that if we don't try, this fighting will continue and people will keep dying on the battlefield. That is a guarantee.
Wishful thinking TheRedneck, not that i would not like to see exactly that happen.
It is wishful thinking as long as people keep demanding blood for blood.
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.
Oh, i think we will still be having the same to similar conversations come the same time next year
I agree. Is that what we want to happen?
TheRedneck
a reply to: TheRedneck
No.
Are you pro-war since that's what you have been saying?
Just because a person understands how wars operate don't mean they wish to see them happen.
I suggested it may be an idea tongue in cheek but it may indeed be best if Putin was to take his own life or be assassinated by someone close.
That way the next fellow may actually be up for negotiating peace, then again there is also a chance he may be worse, as i have already said.
Here "400 days... I remember you were saying Ukraine was going to kick Russian butt out of the entire country 400 days ago".
I would imagine this war is full of deep dark secrets. If in doubt well see the mass graves that have been uncovered and the war crimes that are beginning to come to light.
Most wars are full of secrets and hidden atrocities.
Yes, they are better armed, and also going to kill your wife and steal your children, do you still negotiate, or shoot first and ask questions later?
You don't negotiate with people there to take everything you have, not with your house not with your family, and not with your nation.
You defend what you have to your last dying breath, or at least that's how i was brought up.
Give people an inch and they will try and take a mile especially so where violence is concerned.
Countries starting with the letter U are not in the wrong postcode or threatening to chuck nukes out the pram.
Countries starting with the letter U gave away their nuclear arsenal in good faith in hope of a better future.
Again that would be a land grab and attempt to return Russia to some kind of semblance of the former USSR.
I don't think it matters as both nations are part of NATO with commitments that go hand in hand. NATO are in support of Ukraine, and to be honest i would rather see the battle waged there than across the rest of Europe.
So stating the obvious? LoL
Not in the slightest, please don't try and put words in other peoples mouths.
I have already alluded as to the reason for the existence of the North Atlantic Treaty and how it came about here in this thread in a reply to yourself TheRedneck.
Russia instigated this entire situation not NATO.
Trump questioned the value of NATO and repeated a slew of false claims to an international audience at the NATO summit.
Say what now? Again you have lost me im afraid as we have been discussing NATO and Russia for several pages now.
Stab in the dark, because he has invaded his neighbors under the guise of falsehoods and lies, and is not ready to come anywhere near the peace table because he does not wish to cede back the land he has stolen.
If in doubt see the sham referendums held that are in no way legally binding nevermind even logistically possible to have taken place in what amounted to active warzones
Some people simply do love to do bad things whether or not they feel entitled to do so or not, the human condition is what it is. Some people are just wired wrong products of society or otherwise.
Well Putin is on the same page as Hitler now given his antics in Ukraine aka something reminiscent of Operation Barbarossa in reverse.
I have stated the reason about 4 times now, Putin wishes to see Russia resemble the former USSR and something reminiscent of the old Warsaw pact, which is a pipe dream, and never likely to materialise.
I don't necessarily disagree with the majority of the above paragraph.
Killing people other people love tends to have that effect.
No, but we do both seem to agree that it will most likely be the colour of the day.
There is still no end in sight to this madness as sad as the case may be, and that's not likely to change until one side decides they have had enough.
I agree. That is exactly what I have been saying.
So, you are pro-war?
No.
Are you pro-war since that's what you have been saying?
Just because a person understands how wars operate don't mean they wish to see them happen.
And killing their leader. Don't forget that one.
I suggested it may be an idea tongue in cheek but it may indeed be best if Putin was to take his own life or be assassinated by someone close.
That way the next fellow may actually be up for negotiating peace, then again there is also a chance he may be worse, as i have already said.
When did I say that? I think you misunderstood.
Here "400 days... I remember you were saying Ukraine was going to kick Russian butt out of the entire country 400 days ago".
Fair enough; if it has been tried, it is a deep, dark secret that hasn't been mentioned once in the media.
I would imagine this war is full of deep dark secrets. If in doubt well see the mass graves that have been uncovered and the war crimes that are beginning to come to light.
Most wars are full of secrets and hidden atrocities.
Depends... are they better armed than me? Do I stand a better chance of escaping that situation by fighting or talking?
I would be most concerned with protecting my family, not vengeance against them when and if they ever left.
Yes, they are better armed, and also going to kill your wife and steal your children, do you still negotiate, or shoot first and ask questions later?
You don't negotiate with people there to take everything you have, not with your house not with your family, and not with your nation.
You defend what you have to your last dying breath, or at least that's how i was brought up.
Give people an inch and they will try and take a mile especially so where violence is concerned.
Yes, that certainly seems to apply to countries starting with the letter "R." What about countries starting with the letter "U"?
Countries starting with the letter U are not in the wrong postcode or threatening to chuck nukes out the pram.
Countries starting with the letter U gave away their nuclear arsenal in good faith in hope of a better future.
I wish I knew. I would first ask him why he invaded in the first place and go from there.
Again that would be a land grab and attempt to return Russia to some kind of semblance of the former USSR.
Do you think we (the USA and UK) look strong hiding behind Zelensky's skirt?
I don't think it matters as both nations are part of NATO with commitments that go hand in hand. NATO are in support of Ukraine, and to be honest i would rather see the battle waged there than across the rest of Europe.
I'm trying to say that Vladimir Putin knows what he wants better than you do. You know what you want better than Putin does. I know what I want better than you do.
So stating the obvious? LoL
So you're telling me that we were antagonizing Russia back in 1990 because they would annex Crimea in 2014 and invade Ukraine in 2022? Really? Is that really what you're telling me?
Not in the slightest, please don't try and put words in other peoples mouths.
That is exactly what NATO did. NATO was formed specifically to defend against Russia. Why did you think NATO was organized?
I have already alluded as to the reason for the existence of the North Atlantic Treaty and how it came about here in this thread in a reply to yourself TheRedneck.
Russia instigated this entire situation not NATO.
Trump was trying to stop the USA from supplying all the capital for NATO and forcing members to pay their dues as well... a move that would have made the other nations in NATO less dependent on the USA and more able to disagree with the USA.
Trump questioned the value of NATO and repeated a slew of false claims to an international audience at the NATO summit.
Please tell me you are joking around... is this the first you have ever heard of NATO?
Say what now? Again you have lost me im afraid as we have been discussing NATO and Russia for several pages now.
Exactly! So why have we not sat down with Putin and listened to what he has to say?
Stab in the dark, because he has invaded his neighbors under the guise of falsehoods and lies, and is not ready to come anywhere near the peace table because he does not wish to cede back the land he has stolen.
If in doubt see the sham referendums held that are in no way legally binding nevermind even logistically possible to have taken place in what amounted to active warzones
No, it's based on a thread I made a long, long time ago called the "Captain Planet Syndrome." In that show, the villains simply loved to do bad things... classic good vs. evil plot. In reality, people who do bad things do them because they think they are entitled to do so or because they feel they have no better choice. The world is not binary; people are not binary good or bad. People simply have different perspectives, and sometimes those perspectives clash.
Some people simply do love to do bad things whether or not they feel entitled to do so or not, the human condition is what it is. Some people are just wired wrong products of society or otherwise.
Even Adolph Hitler (who I only bring up because you already did) thought he was doing what was right for Germany. Was it wrong? YES! Was it evil? YES! Did it require a war to stop him? YES! I do not dispute any of that.
Well Putin is on the same page as Hitler now given his antics in Ukraine aka something reminiscent of Operation Barbarossa in reverse.
I only state that there is a reason Putin invaded Ukraine. We should endeavor to find out what that reason is. If it is something that is completely out of line, fine... defeat Putin. But it could be something that we have ignored in the past and then we could potentially stop this fighting by correcting that.
I have stated the reason about 4 times now, Putin wishes to see Russia resemble the former USSR and something reminiscent of the old Warsaw pact, which is a pipe dream, and never likely to materialise.
That is at least a chance for peace. Not a guarantee, but then again, the only guarantee we have is that if we don't try, this fighting will continue and people will keep dying on the battlefield. That is a guarantee.
I don't necessarily disagree with the majority of the above paragraph.
It is wishful thinking as long as people keep demanding blood for blood.
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.
Killing people other people love tends to have that effect.
I agree. Is that what we want to happen?
No, but we do both seem to agree that it will most likely be the colour of the day.
There is still no end in sight to this madness as sad as the case may be, and that's not likely to change until one side decides they have had enough.
edit on 8-4-2023 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)
a reply to: TheRedneck
This is a complete misrepresentation of what was said, and I hope that was unintentional.
He never said that NATO isn't supplying Ukraine. He said that we're sending our reserves and outdated equipment. Which is true. We're not sending our cutting-edge equipment, let alone the beyond cutting-edge stuff they've certainly cooked up. We're sending stuff that's been kicking around for 20 or 30 years and is in the process of being phased out.
As for the second point, he never said the Ukrainian army is untrained. He said that they are untrained on NATO equipment and NATO tactics. Which is once again true. Despite being independent for 30 years, the Ukrainian military is still very much a product of Russia. All of their equipment is based on Russian platforms and their tactics are still based on the Russian school of thought.
That said, Ukraine's military has done a commendable job of learning NATO's equipment and tactics on the fly and it has certainly produced results.
Strange... I have had others tell me in no uncertain terms that the Ukrainian fighting force is one of the best-trained on the planet and of course they are using NATO weapons. Now I hear the opposite? I actually pointed that dynamic out when the invasion was still young and I was lambasted for daring to question the veracity of the mighty Ukraine military.
I guess the narrative changed. Sorry, I'm not on the mailing list for the changes. Need to get on it, I guess. It's hard to keep up otherwise.
This is a complete misrepresentation of what was said, and I hope that was unintentional.
He never said that NATO isn't supplying Ukraine. He said that we're sending our reserves and outdated equipment. Which is true. We're not sending our cutting-edge equipment, let alone the beyond cutting-edge stuff they've certainly cooked up. We're sending stuff that's been kicking around for 20 or 30 years and is in the process of being phased out.
As for the second point, he never said the Ukrainian army is untrained. He said that they are untrained on NATO equipment and NATO tactics. Which is once again true. Despite being independent for 30 years, the Ukrainian military is still very much a product of Russia. All of their equipment is based on Russian platforms and their tactics are still based on the Russian school of thought.
That said, Ukraine's military has done a commendable job of learning NATO's equipment and tactics on the fly and it has certainly produced results.
a reply to: TheRedneck
Which one's there's plenty. Human rights, national sovereignty, economics... Yeah we could have a really long conversation about things and totally lose sight of the point.
But sure, Libya and Iraq, lesser extent Afghanistan. We do our own clandestine ops, spy on citizens. Whatever.
The tone smells of Doritos and mountain dew redneck, do you even want a response? I'll try.
No it's not about mind reading, it's about hearing the words and comparing the actions. "Hi, we are Russia and we notice western propaganda talk of military build-up in Western Russia..., Eh Belarusian territory, this is no cause for alarm and part of military training exercise" months later they launch a half arsed invasion of Ukraine.
They must think we're stupid as # or they genuinely don't care? Which one?
It costs lives.
Your old you can't take it with you Redneck, I value lives more than money every second of the day.
They should share their stash with me then because it's some bloody good stuff!
Yes Ukraine is good with the weapons they use, some of the best evidently. Are they flying MiGs or F-16s? Isn't this more your cup of tea redneck I'm sure you should be schooling me...
They're using some NATO weapons. Sure but have they trained as an integrated fighting force over decades with multiple systems that were designed to compliment each other? No? Of course not otherwise they'd be able to fly out jets, use our tanks and adopt everything else that comes with it. I'm not a military expert although I do have an inkling of how a well oiled machine works.
Finland on the other hand... That seems like a fun and easy integration. But off topic.
Not worth stressing over. Take it to them then they're the ones hurling threats of Armageddon.
Exactly.
I'll not quote the rest or your accusations of pushing civilization. I've never valued currency all that either. 99/100 I'm more than happy to let people get on with it. China can torture their own, Russia can live in blissful brainwashed ignorance. Just don't blame me when our leaders work with people I find highly disagreeable then turn around screaming "they're bad guys!" when it all comes tumbling down.
I'll not say a thing. I did inherit this though, I'm half your age Redneck.
Those documents aren't worth the paper they're printed on. If a country needs to, they will ignore them. All they do is give the population a reason to condemn whatever country is targeted at the time.
Which one's there's plenty. Human rights, national sovereignty, economics... Yeah we could have a really long conversation about things and totally lose sight of the point.
But sure, Libya and Iraq, lesser extent Afghanistan. We do our own clandestine ops, spy on citizens. Whatever.
I never cease to be amazed at how many people seem to know precisely what Vladimir Putin is thinking at any one time. That man has to be the most mind-read person in history. I guess I'm just dumb, because I still don't know what he is ever thinking, probably the only person left who doesn't.
Is there a website or phone app that reads his mind? I'd like to know more about what he's thinking.
The tone smells of Doritos and mountain dew redneck, do you even want a response? I'll try.
No it's not about mind reading, it's about hearing the words and comparing the actions. "Hi, we are Russia and we notice western propaganda talk of military build-up in Western Russia..., Eh Belarusian territory, this is no cause for alarm and part of military training exercise" months later they launch a half arsed invasion of Ukraine.
They must think we're stupid as # or they genuinely don't care? Which one?
Not sure how much that costs. Can you elaborate?
It costs lives.
Your old you can't take it with you Redneck, I value lives more than money every second of the day.
Strange... I have had others tell me in no uncertain terms that the Ukrainian fighting force is one of the best-trained on the planet and of course they are using NATO weapons. Now I hear the opposite? I actually pointed that dynamic out when the invasion was still young and I was lambasted for daring to question the veracity of the mighty Ukraine military.
They should share their stash with me then because it's some bloody good stuff!
Yes Ukraine is good with the weapons they use, some of the best evidently. Are they flying MiGs or F-16s? Isn't this more your cup of tea redneck I'm sure you should be schooling me...
They're using some NATO weapons. Sure but have they trained as an integrated fighting force over decades with multiple systems that were designed to compliment each other? No? Of course not otherwise they'd be able to fly out jets, use our tanks and adopt everything else that comes with it. I'm not a military expert although I do have an inkling of how a well oiled machine works.
Finland on the other hand... That seems like a fun and easy integration. But off topic.
I wouldn't count on that. Sometimes the fight comes to us. No permission needed.
Not worth stressing over. Take it to them then they're the ones hurling threats of Armageddon.
Been done so many times, why not? It doesn't mean anything except that the person doing it is childish.
Exactly.
I'll not quote the rest or your accusations of pushing civilization. I've never valued currency all that either. 99/100 I'm more than happy to let people get on with it. China can torture their own, Russia can live in blissful brainwashed ignorance. Just don't blame me when our leaders work with people I find highly disagreeable then turn around screaming "they're bad guys!" when it all comes tumbling down.
I'll not say a thing. I did inherit this though, I'm half your age Redneck.
a reply to: Xcalibur254
Exactly.
I'll put on my scrying hat and tap into Putin's brain...
He's jealous of the USAs super duper TR3-Bs and the aliens won't help him out, we laughed at his proposals. He had no choice but to show off the might of Russian military and cement Russia's glorious place as a dominant world power.
Takes hat off and puts mirror down*
Yeah we're far too kind, it's not our fault they barely advanced militarily since the 90s. The thing is they can and will adapt, they'll catch up but at what cost? What levels of extremism does it invite? Such things eventually demand a proper war footing.
We could be sarcastic and snotty about it but my conclusions haven't changed. We're delaying a really bad time here.
Exactly.
I'll put on my scrying hat and tap into Putin's brain...
He's jealous of the USAs super duper TR3-Bs and the aliens won't help him out, we laughed at his proposals. He had no choice but to show off the might of Russian military and cement Russia's glorious place as a dominant world power.
Takes hat off and puts mirror down*
Yeah we're far too kind, it's not our fault they barely advanced militarily since the 90s. The thing is they can and will adapt, they'll catch up but at what cost? What levels of extremism does it invite? Such things eventually demand a proper war footing.
We could be sarcastic and snotty about it but my conclusions haven't changed. We're delaying a really bad time here.
a reply to: andy06shake
No. I keep calling for negotiation. You keep saying negotiation is not possible until we kill Putin. Not exactly the same thing.
Several times.
Fair enough. So many people were saying it, I guess I got you confused with them. Easy to do when that's all one can hear.
I seriously doubt those secrets include peace talks.
OK, let's dig into that hypothetical.
I am confronted by armed men breaking into my house intent on shooting my wife and stealing my kids. Since you specified they are better armed than I am, that would mean I cannot stop them at the moment with force.
I would negotiate.
Why? Because, even that minuscule chance of them relenting is better than absolutely no chance at all. If I cannot match them with force, any attempt to do so will simply result in my death, my wife's death, and my children's kidnapping. My purpose is to prevent that. So my tactic would be to negotiate, to appear to capitulate, until I can match force with them. That delay, if nothing else, might allow me to turn the tables.
It's called "strategy."
Wow... I have to say, once you start channeling Putin, you do hang in there. I guess I should give you kudos for tenacity.
I disagree; perception is always a component of battle. If one is surprised by a wild animal, one often effective technique is to make oneself look larger and more threatening. Slink back in fear and the animal will likely charge.
War is simply man's attempt to refine that same law of the jungle. We still observe the same techniques: ambush, cooperation against an enemy, overwhelming force, overwhelming speed, strategic positioning... all of those are clearly evident in the animal kingdom.
But you do provide an insight there. I am reading that you don't think there is any possibility of stopping Russia, and you prefer Ukraine to be destroyed rather than the UK (you) being destroyed. Is that accurate?
I'm not. I'm trying to understand a position that appears to deny causality.
Russia has been looked down on and demonized in the public eye since at least 1990... I'm not even considering the Cold War propaganda. That's a fact. But you are claiming that the reason people are anti-Russia is something that happened in 2022... or possibly in 2014.
That is a physical impossibility; our universe is causal. Consequences do not precede actions. I am asking for an explanation.
But you claimed that NATO was not organized to be anti-Russia. At least that's the way I read it. Defense against Russia was the exact reason NATO was formed.
I wonder... suppose all of your neighbors took a pact to oppose andy06shake, then went out and bought all kinds of powerful weapons and pointed them at your house. I have a feeling you wouldn't be very friendly while that was going on.
Considering that NATO is about to get us into WWIII, maybe Trump was right again?
I didn't see any "false claims." All the claims were about NATO members reneging on their promises to contribute.
So there is no option but war? I thought you claimed earlier you weren't pro-war?
You mean like the sham referendum we had in the USA in 2020? Yeah, I hate those. Glad we agree.
I'm curious: was the Brexit referendum a sham as well?
It seems the Captain Planet Syndrome is strong with this one.
No. They don't.
I suppose that's fair. Operation Barbarossa saw the aggressor defeated. So yes, since the aggressor (Russia) has not been defeated, it would seem to be working opposite.
I'm a bit confused as to your position now, though...
Actually it was the USA and Germany.
You have stated your assumed reason. You have not stated Putin's reason. Did you not earlier say that Putin knowing best what Putin wants is "obvious"? No one knows what Putin wants except Putin, because no one has bothered to ask Putin what Putin wants.
Good! Progress!
Is it a good thing?
One of us would like to change that.
That's not going to happen until one side falls. I wonder which it will be?
TheRedneck
No.
Are you pro-war since that's what you have been saying?
No. I keep calling for negotiation. You keep saying negotiation is not possible until we kill Putin. Not exactly the same thing.
I suggested it may be an idea tongue in cheek but it may indeed be best if Putin was to take his own life or be assassinated by someone close.
Several times.
Here "400 days... I remember you were saying Ukraine was going to kick Russian butt out of the entire country 400 days ago".
Fair enough. So many people were saying it, I guess I got you confused with them. Easy to do when that's all one can hear.
Most wars are full of secrets and hidden atrocities.
I seriously doubt those secrets include peace talks.
Yes, they are better armed, and also going to kill your wife and steal your children, do you still negotiate, or shoot first and ask questions later?
OK, let's dig into that hypothetical.
I am confronted by armed men breaking into my house intent on shooting my wife and stealing my kids. Since you specified they are better armed than I am, that would mean I cannot stop them at the moment with force.
I would negotiate.
Why? Because, even that minuscule chance of them relenting is better than absolutely no chance at all. If I cannot match them with force, any attempt to do so will simply result in my death, my wife's death, and my children's kidnapping. My purpose is to prevent that. So my tactic would be to negotiate, to appear to capitulate, until I can match force with them. That delay, if nothing else, might allow me to turn the tables.
It's called "strategy."
Again that would be a land grab and attempt to return Russia to some kind of semblance of the former USSR.
Wow... I have to say, once you start channeling Putin, you do hang in there. I guess I should give you kudos for tenacity.
I don't think it matters as both nations are part of NATO with commitments that go hand in hand. NATO are in support of Ukraine, and to be honest i would rather see the battle waged there than across the rest of Europe.
I disagree; perception is always a component of battle. If one is surprised by a wild animal, one often effective technique is to make oneself look larger and more threatening. Slink back in fear and the animal will likely charge.
War is simply man's attempt to refine that same law of the jungle. We still observe the same techniques: ambush, cooperation against an enemy, overwhelming force, overwhelming speed, strategic positioning... all of those are clearly evident in the animal kingdom.
But you do provide an insight there. I am reading that you don't think there is any possibility of stopping Russia, and you prefer Ukraine to be destroyed rather than the UK (you) being destroyed. Is that accurate?
Not in the slightest, please don't try and put words in other peoples mouths.
I'm not. I'm trying to understand a position that appears to deny causality.
Russia has been looked down on and demonized in the public eye since at least 1990... I'm not even considering the Cold War propaganda. That's a fact. But you are claiming that the reason people are anti-Russia is something that happened in 2022... or possibly in 2014.
That is a physical impossibility; our universe is causal. Consequences do not precede actions. I am asking for an explanation.
I have already alluded as to the reason for the existence of the North Atlantic Treaty and how it came about here in this thread in a reply to yourself TheRedneck.
But you claimed that NATO was not organized to be anti-Russia. At least that's the way I read it. Defense against Russia was the exact reason NATO was formed.
I wonder... suppose all of your neighbors took a pact to oppose andy06shake, then went out and bought all kinds of powerful weapons and pointed them at your house. I have a feeling you wouldn't be very friendly while that was going on.
Trump questioned the value of NATO
Considering that NATO is about to get us into WWIII, maybe Trump was right again?
I didn't see any "false claims." All the claims were about NATO members reneging on their promises to contribute.
Stab in the dark
So there is no option but war? I thought you claimed earlier you weren't pro-war?
If in doubt see the sham referendums held that are in no way legally binding nevermind even logistically possible to have taken place in what amounted to active warzones
You mean like the sham referendum we had in the USA in 2020? Yeah, I hate those. Glad we agree.
I'm curious: was the Brexit referendum a sham as well?
Some people simply do love to do bad things whether or not they feel entitled to do so or not, the human condition is what it is.
It seems the Captain Planet Syndrome is strong with this one.
No. They don't.
Well Putin is on the same page as Hitler now given his antics in Ukraine aka something reminiscent of Operation Barbarossa in reverse.
I suppose that's fair. Operation Barbarossa saw the aggressor defeated. So yes, since the aggressor (Russia) has not been defeated, it would seem to be working opposite.
I'm a bit confused as to your position now, though...
Russia instigated this entire situation not NATO.
Actually it was the USA and Germany.
I have stated the reason about 4 times now
You have stated your assumed reason. You have not stated Putin's reason. Did you not earlier say that Putin knowing best what Putin wants is "obvious"? No one knows what Putin wants except Putin, because no one has bothered to ask Putin what Putin wants.
I don't necessarily disagree with the majority of the above paragraph.
Good! Progress!
Killing people other people love tends to have that effect.
Is it a good thing?
No, but we do both seem to agree that it will most likely be the colour of the day.
One of us would like to change that.
There is still no end in sight to this madness as sad as the case may be, and that's not likely to change until one side decides they have had enough.
That's not going to happen until one side falls. I wonder which it will be?
TheRedneck
a reply to: Xcalibur254
Excuse me?
That is exactly what was said in the beginning of the invasion. I should know; I was not only there, I was the one being attacked for daring to question the official narrative. Ukraine was going to wipe the floor with Russia, Ukraine was highly skilled and highly trained with any weapons we would send them, and the fighting would be over soon with Russia running back to Moscow with their tails between their legs.
Now, that was what was constantly drummed into my head. Only now, over 400 days later, with sections of Ukraine falling to Russian forces while the US and NATO are collectively trying to bankrupt themselves, can I get a word in edgewise.
Do not tell me what I heard.
TheRedneck
This is a complete misrepresentation of what was said, and I hope that was unintentional.
Excuse me?
That is exactly what was said in the beginning of the invasion. I should know; I was not only there, I was the one being attacked for daring to question the official narrative. Ukraine was going to wipe the floor with Russia, Ukraine was highly skilled and highly trained with any weapons we would send them, and the fighting would be over soon with Russia running back to Moscow with their tails between their legs.
Now, that was what was constantly drummed into my head. Only now, over 400 days later, with sections of Ukraine falling to Russian forces while the US and NATO are collectively trying to bankrupt themselves, can I get a word in edgewise.
Do not tell me what I heard.
TheRedneck
a reply to: TheRedneck
Who 'said' that ?
What I saw in media was rather different. More like the expectation was that Kyiv would fall because a lot of people, myself included, thought the Russian military was more effective than they have so far proven.
In any event, a lot of Ukrainian territory was overrun by the Russians and Ukraine was just able to prevent them from occupying Kyiv and Kharkiv.
The tone didn't start changing until it was obvious the Russian push was running low on momentum, and then it became wondering as to how long Ukraine could hold on.
Cheers
Who 'said' that ?
What I saw in media was rather different. More like the expectation was that Kyiv would fall because a lot of people, myself included, thought the Russian military was more effective than they have so far proven.
In any event, a lot of Ukrainian territory was overrun by the Russians and Ukraine was just able to prevent them from occupying Kyiv and Kharkiv.
The tone didn't start changing until it was obvious the Russian push was running low on momentum, and then it became wondering as to how long Ukraine could hold on.
Cheers
a reply to: RAY1990
And that is bad enough... but it becomes pure hypocrisy when we then condemn others for doing the exact same thing we are doing.
OK, let's look at some of those words and actions.
I have watched and listened to many of Putin's speeches since the invasion. He has been pretty consistent on two points: his intent is not world conquest, and he resists the use of nuclear weapons. That's consistent with the facts that his invasion force was a tiny remnant of Russia's military potential using older weaponry and the fact he has not yet launched the first nuke.
The words from the West? "Putin wants to take over the world!" "Putin is threatening us with nuclear war!"
In the early days of the invasion, all of Putin's targets were military. Ukraine, on the other hand, was caught firing into populated areas. The few cases where Russia was reported doing so turned out later to be Ukrainian forces using Russian-made equipment while appearing (intentionally or not) to be Russian.
The response from the West? "Putin is going to kill millions of innocent people; he's just got bad aim!" And silence when Ukraine kills their own population.
Another response from the West: "If Russia lands something in a NATO country, there will be all HELL to pay!" Then when Ukraine fires two missiles into Poland and kills innocent Polish farmers, NATO is suddenly understanding of their mistake... "Oh, it wasn't intentional!"
Yeah... words and actions. Seen through the filter of "Putin wants the world!"
That's the correct answer. For your information, I'm not planning on taking anything with me. But finances have consequences. What about the lives of old ladies who can't afford to buy food anymore because the USA can't provide assistance they have come to rely on? How about people living those lives in abject poverty, no hope, no joy, just waiting to be mugged so they can die in a gutter? All the while, the help they so desperately need is being sent to Ukraine to fight a boogeyman over an invasion that we caused.
WHAT IS THE COST?
How many more must suffer so we can beat our chests and rail and rant against the big, bad Russian bear that has invaded the one country that has been at odds with them for decades?
Money: __________
Lives: ___________
Suffering: ___________
Fill in the blanks before expecting me to write that check, dammit.
And that would be the reason they are still losing ground after 400 days. They're that good.
Actually I will refer to Zaphod on that. He's the aircraft expert. I'm more technology.
I have tried to make the same point multiple times. For some reason, when I say that, I am told I don't know what I am talking about; Ukraine is the bestest on the planet and we are showing them how to go bang-bang.
Nah, believe your government. They know best.
Makes sense.
You've not seen what I have. You don't know the history that has led us to this situation. I'm sorry you inherited this planet as is... and that is sincere, not a play on words. I did what I could, but what was once a clamoring of voices against the present condition has now dwindled down to a few lone voices in the wilderness. I suppose we weren't convincing enough, or may not pretty enough to be listened to. I know we were once loud enough.
You'll be in charge soon. My generation is dying out. A good friend punched his bus ticket just yesterday. A lot of my friends are planning out their funerals, and I wonder if many will finish in time. I am about the only one left who can still do at all, and that is barely. We'll be gone soon and our warnings will fade into silence.
I hope that some in your generation will pick up the flag and march forward, because if they don't... I pity you.
TheRedneck
But sure, Libya and Iraq, lesser extent Afghanistan. We do our own clandestine ops, spy on citizens.
And that is bad enough... but it becomes pure hypocrisy when we then condemn others for doing the exact same thing we are doing.
No it's not about mind reading, it's about hearing the words and comparing the actions.
OK, let's look at some of those words and actions.
I have watched and listened to many of Putin's speeches since the invasion. He has been pretty consistent on two points: his intent is not world conquest, and he resists the use of nuclear weapons. That's consistent with the facts that his invasion force was a tiny remnant of Russia's military potential using older weaponry and the fact he has not yet launched the first nuke.
The words from the West? "Putin wants to take over the world!" "Putin is threatening us with nuclear war!"
In the early days of the invasion, all of Putin's targets were military. Ukraine, on the other hand, was caught firing into populated areas. The few cases where Russia was reported doing so turned out later to be Ukrainian forces using Russian-made equipment while appearing (intentionally or not) to be Russian.
The response from the West? "Putin is going to kill millions of innocent people; he's just got bad aim!" And silence when Ukraine kills their own population.
Another response from the West: "If Russia lands something in a NATO country, there will be all HELL to pay!" Then when Ukraine fires two missiles into Poland and kills innocent Polish farmers, NATO is suddenly understanding of their mistake... "Oh, it wasn't intentional!"
Yeah... words and actions. Seen through the filter of "Putin wants the world!"
It costs lives.
Your old you can't take it with you Redneck, I value lives more than money every second of the day.
That's the correct answer. For your information, I'm not planning on taking anything with me. But finances have consequences. What about the lives of old ladies who can't afford to buy food anymore because the USA can't provide assistance they have come to rely on? How about people living those lives in abject poverty, no hope, no joy, just waiting to be mugged so they can die in a gutter? All the while, the help they so desperately need is being sent to Ukraine to fight a boogeyman over an invasion that we caused.
WHAT IS THE COST?
How many more must suffer so we can beat our chests and rail and rant against the big, bad Russian bear that has invaded the one country that has been at odds with them for decades?
Money: __________
Lives: ___________
Suffering: ___________
Fill in the blanks before expecting me to write that check, dammit.
Yes Ukraine is good with the weapons they use, some of the best evidently.
And that would be the reason they are still losing ground after 400 days. They're that good.
Are they flying MiGs or F-16s? Isn't this more your cup of tea redneck I'm sure you should be schooling me...
Actually I will refer to Zaphod on that. He's the aircraft expert. I'm more technology.
They're using some NATO weapons. Sure but have they trained as an integrated fighting force over decades with multiple systems that were designed to compliment each other? No? Of course not otherwise they'd be able to fly out jets, use our tanks and adopt everything else that comes with it. I'm not a military expert although I do have an inkling of how a well oiled machine works.
I have tried to make the same point multiple times. For some reason, when I say that, I am told I don't know what I am talking about; Ukraine is the bestest on the planet and we are showing them how to go bang-bang.
Not worth stressing over.
Nah, believe your government. They know best.
I'll not say a thing. I did inherit this though, I'm half your age Redneck.
Makes sense.
You've not seen what I have. You don't know the history that has led us to this situation. I'm sorry you inherited this planet as is... and that is sincere, not a play on words. I did what I could, but what was once a clamoring of voices against the present condition has now dwindled down to a few lone voices in the wilderness. I suppose we weren't convincing enough, or may not pretty enough to be listened to. I know we were once loud enough.
You'll be in charge soon. My generation is dying out. A good friend punched his bus ticket just yesterday. A lot of my friends are planning out their funerals, and I wonder if many will finish in time. I am about the only one left who can still do at all, and that is barely. We'll be gone soon and our warnings will fade into silence.
I hope that some in your generation will pick up the flag and march forward, because if they don't... I pity you.
TheRedneck
a reply to: F2d5thCavv2
Everybody.
I don't know how you managed to hear the exact opposite.
TheRedneck
Who 'said' that ?
Everybody.
I don't know how you managed to hear the exact opposite.
TheRedneck
originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: F2d5thCavv2
Who 'said' that ?
Everybody.
I don't know how you managed to hear the exact opposite.
TheRedneck
No, I don't think so.
If you have quotes or other material you can provide to prove me wrong, please do so. Because I think your recall in this instance is not accurate at all.
ETA. Here are some quotes from the first "Russia-Ukraine Thread". Yeah, it is not the MSM, but representative of what people here at ATS thought would happen.
Prepare for the dismemberment of a sovereign country which Putin now does not recognise as an independent state.
I have to say that Russia wins again.
Smells of agreement all round. Donbas for Putin. Stops there. Everyone claims they’re tough as fuch and won. Dust settles. Get the boosters out. Ukraine? Where’s that again?
Putin knows the west will do nothing. too weak and too skint. He's chosen his timing perfectly.
Ukraine is going to hand itself over to Russia, at least part of it.
So when did the tune change?
Well, my recall was after Russia failed to seize the airport near Kyiv and their mechanized columns coming south from Belarus bogged down on the road to Kyiv. When that column didn't move for a week, that was when the discussion began that post-2014 training of Ukrainian forces had enabled Ukraine to avoid being swiftly defeated.
Cheers
edit on 8-4-2023 by F2d5thCavv2 because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: schuyler
And Putin said he would take out all of Ukraine in 4 days. That "Special Military Operation" does not seem to have worked either.
I think you're missing some context there
And I think you can't explain what the context is.
a reply to: TheRedneck
"The words from the West? "Putin wants to take over the world!" "Putin is threatening us with nuclear war!"
In the early days of the invasion, all of Putin's targets were military. Ukraine, on the other hand, was caught firing into populated areas. The few cases where Russia was reported doing so turned out later to be Ukrainian forces using Russian-made equipment while appearing (intentionally or not) to be Russian.
The response from the West? "Putin is going to kill millions of innocent people; he's just got bad aim!" And silence when Ukraine kills their own population.
Another response from the West: "If Russia lands something in a NATO country, there will be all HELL to pay!" Then when Ukraine fires two missiles into Poland and kills innocent Polish farmers, NATO is suddenly understanding of their mistake... "Oh, it wasn't intentional!"
Yeah... words and actions. Seen through the filter of "Putin wants the world!"
Those missiles were SAMS that went off course and landed in Poland. On a remote farm. Not a very populated area. It was not intentional.
"Caught firing" wrongly implies they were caught doing something nefarious in doing it deliberately, that is not true.
I don't recall "the West" saying Putin wanted to take over the World?
Do you have a source?
Still "losing ground after 400 days"?
Against a supposed superpower?
Not bad going, that.
As for Putin only targeting military targets, he soon went on to target civilian areas, apartment blocks, etc etc and flattening towns and cities indiscriminately etc.
"The words from the West? "Putin wants to take over the world!" "Putin is threatening us with nuclear war!"
In the early days of the invasion, all of Putin's targets were military. Ukraine, on the other hand, was caught firing into populated areas. The few cases where Russia was reported doing so turned out later to be Ukrainian forces using Russian-made equipment while appearing (intentionally or not) to be Russian.
The response from the West? "Putin is going to kill millions of innocent people; he's just got bad aim!" And silence when Ukraine kills their own population.
Another response from the West: "If Russia lands something in a NATO country, there will be all HELL to pay!" Then when Ukraine fires two missiles into Poland and kills innocent Polish farmers, NATO is suddenly understanding of their mistake... "Oh, it wasn't intentional!"
Yeah... words and actions. Seen through the filter of "Putin wants the world!"
Those missiles were SAMS that went off course and landed in Poland. On a remote farm. Not a very populated area. It was not intentional.
"Caught firing" wrongly implies they were caught doing something nefarious in doing it deliberately, that is not true.
I don't recall "the West" saying Putin wanted to take over the World?
Do you have a source?
Still "losing ground after 400 days"?
Against a supposed superpower?
Not bad going, that.
As for Putin only targeting military targets, he soon went on to target civilian areas, apartment blocks, etc etc and flattening towns and cities indiscriminately etc.
edit on 8-4-2023 by Oldcarpy2 because: (no reason given)
edit on 8-4-2023 by Oldcarpy2 because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: F2d5thCavv2
Who 'said' that ?
Everybody.
I don't know how you managed to hear the exact opposite.
TheRedneck
My recollection from media and this site was the expectation of a swift Russian victory.
The optimists predicted more successful resistance, I don't recall anyone predicting an easy Ukrainian victory.
edit on 8-4-2023 by ScepticScot because: (no reason given)
a reply to: ScepticScot
My recollection, too. Then there was the failure to capture that airport near Kyiv and the near total destruction of that miles long column of armour that was supposed to take Kyiv.
That expectation then vanished and Putin's SMO turned into a long grinding and bloody calamity.
Odd that some are rooting for that and are revelling in the thought of Ukraine being crushed under the heel of a brutal Dictator.
Very odd, indeed.
My recollection, too. Then there was the failure to capture that airport near Kyiv and the near total destruction of that miles long column of armour that was supposed to take Kyiv.
That expectation then vanished and Putin's SMO turned into a long grinding and bloody calamity.
Odd that some are rooting for that and are revelling in the thought of Ukraine being crushed under the heel of a brutal Dictator.
Very odd, indeed.
a reply to: TheRedneck
Who says this? TV pundits?
I don't watch fox news or CNN I can't express that enough it seems. What you've just said is not an official statement of any leader or any government I'm aware of.
But if we're going to go all wishy-washy with opinions, facts and official statements then the Russian opinion is. Ukraine doesn't exist, my nation should've been nuked yesterday and the west is full of 2nd rate citizens and puffs. We don't deserve the air we breathe apparently.
Oh and this:
At least we have a semblance of freedom and the ability to face such things, do Russian citizens or Chinese for that matter? Did anyone care whilst they made us rich? No? We're such naughty enablers aren't we?
Idk why I'm lumping myself with "the lot" though. I didn't do this.
Lives.
Everything else that's human is made up, imagined and then created. Non of it really matters when the reaper comes. They shout for help and look shocked not for the check book and looking vexxed...
Most NATO nations don't really have a full domestic air fleet, tank forces etc. This IS how NATO is integrated. Similar to same planes, same armaments etc etc.
Lol who says I trust them?
They take easy paths that line pockets and condemn the future. I'm an idiot with a crap opinion who few would listen to anyways.
The big battle - Johnny Cash.
It never ends. I swore to be a pacifist although admittedly I know it's just an idealism. A dream. If I must wave a flag it won't be for some twat in Westminster or a guy with sausage fingers. It'll be for the poor and the downtrodden because I've lived with them all my life and they deserve so much more than this.
I'm sorry for your loss Redneck. Deep down most will do the best they can with a smudge of hope on their soul. It's the only thing that needed inheriting.
All that said socially and economically I've had it easy compared to the past, I have your generation and others to thank for that. Might be for nothing if we don't fix this Ukraine issue though.
The words from the West? "Putin wants to take over the world!" "Putin is threatening us with nuclear war!"
Who says this? TV pundits?
I don't watch fox news or CNN I can't express that enough it seems. What you've just said is not an official statement of any leader or any government I'm aware of.
But if we're going to go all wishy-washy with opinions, facts and official statements then the Russian opinion is. Ukraine doesn't exist, my nation should've been nuked yesterday and the west is full of 2nd rate citizens and puffs. We don't deserve the air we breathe apparently.
Oh and this:
And that is bad enough... but it becomes pure hypocrisy when we then condemn others for doing the exact same thing we are doing.
At least we have a semblance of freedom and the ability to face such things, do Russian citizens or Chinese for that matter? Did anyone care whilst they made us rich? No? We're such naughty enablers aren't we?
Idk why I'm lumping myself with "the lot" though. I didn't do this.
WHAT IS THE COST?
Lives.
Everything else that's human is made up, imagined and then created. Non of it really matters when the reaper comes. They shout for help and look shocked not for the check book and looking vexxed...
Actually I will refer to Zaphod on that. He's the aircraft expert. I'm more technology.
Most NATO nations don't really have a full domestic air fleet, tank forces etc. This IS how NATO is integrated. Similar to same planes, same armaments etc etc.
Nah, believe your government. They know best.
Lol who says I trust them?
They take easy paths that line pockets and condemn the future. I'm an idiot with a crap opinion who few would listen to anyways.
I hope that some in your generation will pick up the flag and march forward, because if they don't... I pity you.
TheRedneck
The big battle - Johnny Cash.
It never ends. I swore to be a pacifist although admittedly I know it's just an idealism. A dream. If I must wave a flag it won't be for some twat in Westminster or a guy with sausage fingers. It'll be for the poor and the downtrodden because I've lived with them all my life and they deserve so much more than this.
I'm sorry for your loss Redneck. Deep down most will do the best they can with a smudge of hope on their soul. It's the only thing that needed inheriting.
All that said socially and economically I've had it easy compared to the past, I have your generation and others to thank for that. Might be for nothing if we don't fix this Ukraine issue though.
Ah, here we go. OK, I get it... redneck no wanted in this discussion. Pileup time.
I'm not going to provide links to say that COVID was discovered in late 2019/early 2020 either. I shouldn't need to and if I were do do so, no one would believe me anyway. It's pretty obvious to me what's happening here... the MSM as usual has people confused and are literally brainwashing memories into their minds that never existed. When something so obvious and so profound occurs, then a few months later it is being denied as absolute fakery... well, I'm done.
I stopped posting in these threads for a long time, simply because my viewpoint was not only unwanted, but I actually heard a few pundits on the MSM suggest that anyone who opposed that official narrative should be locked up. Given my country is already occupied by a hostile force, I tend to take things like that seriously. I thought that movement had subsided enough for me to warn people what's actually occurring... apparently not.
I think for the time being, it is wiser for me to keep my opinions to myself. I would prefer to spend my last years outside of a cage.
So I will back out of this thread and leave you all to your "victory." Russia will continue to advance on Ukraine, people will continue to hate them for it, Ukrainians will continue to die, and everything will be hunky-dory until it's not. Enjoy your ride, folks. You win. I'll be watching quietly from the shadows.
TheRedneck
I'm not going to provide links to say that COVID was discovered in late 2019/early 2020 either. I shouldn't need to and if I were do do so, no one would believe me anyway. It's pretty obvious to me what's happening here... the MSM as usual has people confused and are literally brainwashing memories into their minds that never existed. When something so obvious and so profound occurs, then a few months later it is being denied as absolute fakery... well, I'm done.
I stopped posting in these threads for a long time, simply because my viewpoint was not only unwanted, but I actually heard a few pundits on the MSM suggest that anyone who opposed that official narrative should be locked up. Given my country is already occupied by a hostile force, I tend to take things like that seriously. I thought that movement had subsided enough for me to warn people what's actually occurring... apparently not.
I think for the time being, it is wiser for me to keep my opinions to myself. I would prefer to spend my last years outside of a cage.
So I will back out of this thread and leave you all to your "victory." Russia will continue to advance on Ukraine, people will continue to hate them for it, Ukrainians will continue to die, and everything will be hunky-dory until it's not. Enjoy your ride, folks. You win. I'll be watching quietly from the shadows.
TheRedneck
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