Russian Military Blogger Killed And Six Others Injured In Explosion At St Petersburg Cafe

a reply to: TheRedneck

And Ukraine is shrinking a little more every day, despite billions of dollars in aid and weaponry from the US and NATO.

Yet Wagner Group cannot even seem to take Bakhmut in its entirety.

Russian is not fighting NATO TheRedneck they are fighting Ukrainian forces that have the support of NATO nations quite a bit of a difference, and a year down the line Russia are no closer to victory or Ukrainian capitulation.

Picture Russia if NATO forces decided to launch a sustained air war and/or cruise missile barrage.

Putin would have his nukes chucked out of the pram sharpish else there goes his infrastructure and air defense network in a matter of hours, possibly a few days.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Double my bad, that's happened a few times today now.

Apologies.

a reply to: andy06shake

Yet Wagner Group cannot even seem to take Bakhmut in its entirety.

You're still looking at it from the wrong angle. Ukraine can't seem to prevent this Wagner Group fro taking most of Bakhmut.

400 days... I remember you were saying Ukraine was going to kick Russian butt out of the entire country 400 days ago.

Look, I realize you think you are being "patriotic" and that is actually laudable. But there's towing the patriotic line, and there's burying ones head in the sand. No one is "winning" right now, at least not so far as we can tell. Russia hasn't taken over Ukraine completely and Ukraine hasn't removed Russian troops from its soil.

Russian is not fighting NATO

They might as well be. Ukraine is being financially supported by the US, to the tune of enough aid to put our own economy on the verge of collapse, and those are NATO weapons they are using. Russia may not have invaded a NATO country, but they are certainly fighting against NATO capabilities. And they're still there after 400 days.

Make no mistake... Russia is fighting a war again the USA and NATO using Ukraine as a proxy.

Picture Russia if NATO forces decided to launch a sustained air war and/or cruise missile barrage.

Putin has already said that would be WWIII and the nukes would come out. Incidents like the one that started this thread are treading that line. No, thank you, I already lived through the Cold War, and I prefer to imagine some amount of sanity. Only a true war-monger would wish for that. Are you a war-monger, andy06shake?

TheRedneck

a reply to: andy06shake

It happens. The site is undergoing some adjustments.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Wasn't that poster talking about when you claimed this?

"This was foolhardy as all hell if I am right. We cannot withstand a full-on Russian assault. We might win, but the cost would be enormous. If we keep using Ukraine to poke that bear, it WILL lead to a full-on Russian assault on the USA (and probably the UK).

TheRedneck"

a reply to: TheRedneck

400 days... I remember you were saying Ukraine was going to kick Russian butt out of the entire country 400 days ago.

I don't seem to recall suggesting anything of the sorts bar they had kept some of their former nuclear arsenals tucked away which still would not end well for either side or anybody else.

NATO forces could probably wipe the floor with the Russian invaders in Ukraine in one fell swoop.

Pretty much in two shakes of a lamb's tail using conventional forces but again Ukraine is not a NATO nation and that would equate to a third world war.

Look, I realize you think you are being "patriotic" and that is actually laudable. But there's towing the patriotic line, and there's burying one's head in the sand. No one is "winning" right now, at least not so far as we can tell. Russia hasn't taken over Ukraine completely and Ukraine hasn't removed Russian troops from its soil.

Its not about being patriotic TheRedneck its about Russia not being allowed to go any further than Ukraine, and if thats the rock on which Putin's Russia must perish then so be it as its preferable to a full-blown European war.

Russia is fighting a war again the USA and NATO using Ukraine as a proxy.

Possibly something reminiscent of such but Russia are not facing any mainline NATO forces or fighting an air war against NATO nations.

Putin has already said that would be WWIII and the nukes would come out. Incidents like the one that started this thread are treading that line. No, thank you, I already lived through the Cold War, and I prefer to imagine some amount of sanity.

I lived through the arse end of the same cold war which is why Russia cannot be allowed to prevail in Ukraine.

Only a true war-monger would wish for that. Are you a war-monger, andy06shake?

I'm in the postcode i am supposed to be TheRedneck, its Putin's forces that are in the wrong place.

I just want peace on earth and goodwill to mankind, but you won't get anything reminiscent of such via capitulating to Russian Federation invaders.

a reply to: TheRedneck



I thought it was just this mouse to be honest, something to do with the sensitivity.

I do know the site is undergoing some transitions through.

a reply to: TheRedneck

They might as well be. Ukraine is being financially supported by the US, to the tune of enough aid to put our own economy on the verge of collapse, and those are NATO weapons they are using. Russia may not have invaded a NATO country, but they are certainly fighting against NATO capabilities. And they're still there after 400 days.

Total military aid from NATO countries to Ukraine represents less than 5% of annual NATO defence spending.

They are fighting against Ukraine equipped with NATO Surplus.

a reply to: andy06shake

I don't seem to recall suggesting anything of the sorts

I seem to recall you being anti-Russia from the very start. No matter, though, the point is that it has been over 400 days and Russia is still in Ukraine despite all the NATO assistance given them.

And I seem to recall that China is supportive of Russia in all this. India has refused to condemn the invasion as well. Russia/China/India fighting Ukraine/USA/NATO in Ukraine... what was this about a WWIII again?

Its not about being patriotic TheRedneck its about Russia not being allowed to go any further than Ukraine, and if thats the rock on which Putin's Russia must perish then so be it as its preferable to a full-blown European war.

I imagine the people in the war zones inside Ukraine feel like there is already a full-blown European war.

Possibly something reminiscent of such but Russia are not facing any mainline NATO forces or fighting an air war against NATO nations.

Why would they? Staying in Ukraine for the time being is depleting NATO resources for them.

Maybe the reason they keep hanging on.

I lived through the arse end of the same cold war which is why Russia cannot be allowed to prevail in Ukraine.

I lived through the bulk of it. I remember, we had these flimsy little school desks that were ground-zero-nuclear-blast-proof.

So in your opinion Russia should never be trusted again?

Hmmm... the UK used to have this royal court that spent years persecuting religious groups based on which was ruling at the time... started with Henry VIII. I guess we should never allow the UK to have religious people in it either?

People change, andy... nations change. Russia is no longer communist. There are actual people, living, breathing human beings that actually live there and who want to live there. They get up in the morning like you and I, go to work like you and I, and then come home like you and I. And you want to destroy them?

I'm in the postcode i am supposed to be TheRedneck, its Putin's forces that are in the wrong place.

No argument there. But it just makes sense to me to understand why. Do you really think Putin woke up one day, his toothpaste tube exploded on him, and he went into a rage and ordered the invasion of Ukraine?

I just want peace on earth and goodwill to mankind, but you won't get anything reminiscent of such via capitulating to Russian Federation invaders.

Ah, yes, the good ol' boogeyman, aka the evil Russian Federation.

You're fighting science fiction. I just hope it doesn't get all of us killed. Peace on Earth is not achieved through destroying nations, whether they be Ukraine or Russia.

TheRedneck

a reply to: ScepticScot

I keep hearing that, but I am watching the US economy tank over it. I guess I shouldn't believe my lying eyes.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

I seem to recall you being anti-Russia from the very start. No matter, though, the point is that it has been over 400 days and Russia is still in Ukraine despite all the NATO assistance given them.

That's a fair enough assessment i suppose, i was not when the wall came down if that helps, that was a chance and a half for real peace if memory serves.

And I seem to recall that China is supportive of Russia in all this. India has refused to condemn the invasion as well. Russia/China/India fighting Ukraine/USA/NATO in Ukraine... what was this about a WWIII again?

China wins whilst NATO and Russia are at one another's throats, but if they tear each others out there goes the market never mind the greater part of the western neighborhood.

I imagine the people in the war zones inside Ukraine feel like there is already a full-blown European war.

Looking at the state of the likes of Bakhmut that might not be to far from the truth but it doesn't make it the reality of the situation.

Why would they? Staying in Ukraine for the time being is depleting NATO resources for them.

Maybe the reason they keep hanging on.

That also works in the reverse, i think we have a tad more staying power, plus NATO stands as one with Ukraine, whilst Russia pretty much stands alone thus far.

I lived through the bulk of it. I remember, we had these flimsy little school desks that were ground-zero-nuclear-blast-proof.

Duck and cover. LoL

The lies we tell our children eh?

Wee bit before my time, but i can remember climbing under the school desks back in the early 80s in some kind of pointless exercise if ever the occurrence of a nuclear attack.

So in your opinion Russia should never be trusted again?

Not with the same regime in place or Putin still at the helm.

He has pretty much made them the European pariah for the rest of the century to come.

How long did it take Germany to be forgiven?

Christ some people still hold a grudge and wonder if its a good idea that they are arming once again in the manner they now are, but again only Putin and Russia are to blame there via their antics in Ukraine.

Hmmm... the UK used to have this royal court that spent years persecuting religious groups based on which was ruling at the time... started with Henry VIII. I guess we should never allow the UK to have religious people in it either?

Each to their own but my thinking is religion and politics should be kept separate.

People change, andy... nations change. Russia is no longer communist. There are actual people, living, breathing human beings that actually live there and who want to live there. They get up in the morning like you and I, go to work like you and I, and then come home like you and I. And you want to destroy them?

Russia is indeed no longer communist, its worse that being an autocracy with a megalomaniac in control.

As to the rest of the above paragraph, i tend to think the same, and don't wish to destroy anyone.

But nor do i wish to see them destroy Ukraine and have to wonder who is next.

All they need to do is go back to whence they came and hope Ukraine does not return the favor.

No argument there. But it just makes sense to me to understand why. Do you really think Putin woke up one day, his toothpaste tube exploded on him, and he went into a rage and ordered the invasion of Ukraine?

Not in the slightest but i do think he wishes to see Russia return to something reminiscent of the former USSR and i think he sees Ukraine as a stepping stone to achieving such.

Ah, yes, the good ol' boogeyman, aka the evil Russian Federation.

Again we lived through the same cold war so that's exactly what Russia are from a far.

If we were to stop pointing ICBM at one another that might be a start.

Where does that perfect world exist through, not in Putins, that's for sure as another cold war is exactly what he expects.

You're fighting science fiction. I just hope it doesn't get all of us killed. Peace on Earth is not achieved through destroying nations, whether they be Ukraine or Russia.

Im not promoting destroying nations TheRedneck, and point of fact that's not why NATO exists, as its a defensive force at heart that came about to protect its member nations in the aftermath of the Second World War. With its purpose to secure peace in Europe, and to promote cooperation among its members.

Look at it this way how many former Soviet Bloc nations choose to join NATO of their own volition?

See they are not afraid NATO will invade, but Russia, hence the reason they choose to join NATO.

a reply to: andy06shake

China wins whilst NATO and Russia are at one another's throats, but if they tear each others out there goes the market never mind the greater part of the western neighborhood.

China is winning because Russia is now selling them energy. China and Russia are historically enemies, and because of that Russia preferred to sell to Europe. In order to keep winning, all China has to do is maintain good relations with Russia. On the other hand, given all the grief Russia has absorbed and all the problems they have had in dealing with Ukraine pre-invasion, not to mention the arbitrary cancelling of their attempt to avoid business with Ukraine, I doubt Russia still feels the same way about doing business with Europe.

This fighting is not a one-time-and-it's-over thing. Understand that we have changed the entire geopolitical spectrum. That will continue long after this fighting subsides. As long as Russia remains, China has won... period.

Again we lived through the same cold war so that's exactly what Russia are from a far.

Im not promoting destroying nations TheRedneck, and point of fact that's not why NATO exists, as its a defensive force at heart that came about to protect its member nations in the aftermath of the Second World War. With its purpose to secure peace in Europe, and to promote cooperation among its members.

Do you really not see how those two statements are at odds?

You support destroying Russia. That means you support destroying Russians. NATO is not defending a member state; they are taking the fight to Russia. If Russia were to withdraw, what then? Would you support lifting all sanctions? Would you not want to follow them onto their own soil to "teach them better than to invade another country"?

Russia cannot win in your mind. There is nothing that Russia can do to atone for that Cold War. Ever. And I'd bet Russia views NATO the same way you view Russia. That is not the way to peace. The only way that path can attain peace is to destroy everyone except those one who agree... we call that "tyranny."

Look at it this way how many former Soviet Bloc nations choose to join NATO of their own volition?

See they are not afraid NATO will invade, but Russia, hence the reason they choose to join NATO.

Is popular paranoia not still paranoia?

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

China is winning because Russia is now selling them energy. China and Russia are historically enemies, and because of that Russia preferred to sell to Europe. In order to keep winning, all China has to do is maintain good relations with Russia. On the other hand, given all the grief Russia has absorbed and all the problems they have had in dealing with Ukraine pre-invasion, not to mention the arbitrary cancelling of their attempt to avoid business with Ukraine, I doubt Russia still feels the same way about doing business with Europe.

I think that's what we call a marriage of convenience TheRedneck for the time being.

Behind closed doors China is eying up the Russian bear for exactly what it is, that being antiquated and on its arse.

This fighting is not a one-time-and-it's-over thing. Understand that we have changed the entire geopolitical spectrum. That will continue long after this fighting subsides. As long as Russia remains, China has won... period.

It could very well indeed be their century, and the thing is all this palaver in Europe only serves to reinforce the point. As to change well thats always in the post.

Do you really not see how those two statements are at odds?

No i dont.

You support destroying Russia. That means you support destroying Russians. NATO is not defending a member state; they are taking the fight to Russia. If Russia were to withdraw, what then? Would you support lifting all sanctions? Would you not want to follow them onto their own soil to "teach them better than to invade another country"?

I support subduing Russia and standing against them as a show of force.

No need in this day of age to pursue them back across their own border and return the favor as it would only serve to bring about a third world war, Ukraine might not feel the same through.

Russia cannot win in your mind. There is nothing that Russia can do to atone for that Cold War. Ever. And I'd bet Russia views NATO the same way you view Russia. That is not the way to peace. The only way that path can attain peace is to destroy everyone except those one who agree... we call that "tyranny."

In my mind, Putin cannot be allowed to prevail. I don't have a problem with Russia or her people.

As to paths to peace, need to come to the table to do that, and neither Ukraine nor Russia seems willing or able to do so just yet, and probably won't anytime soon as sad as the case may be.

And its not just my mind that Russia cannot win, plenty of other people wish to see an end to the war in Ukraine and Russian forces be sent back to whence they came.

Is popular paranoia not still paranoia?

Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not watching.

Then again looking at what Russia is perpetrating in Ukraine its hardly paranoia and more like cold hard fact by my guess.

Again they are not afraid of NATO invasion but of Russian invasion, hence the reason they choose to become part of a greater force geared towards protecting the continent and by extension the rest of the civilised world.

Joining NATO was not so much paranoia on the part of so many former Soviet bloc countries, but prudent.

Point of fact all that Russia has served to achieve by way of her invasion of Ukraine is to double her borders with NATO nations.

Edit: Think its probably my bedtime now as its Good Friday tomorrow or today even since its 00:31 here, up early, wee trip planned with the kids since they are off school.

Enjoyed the conversation, pick it up tomorrow.

Have fun with the remainder of the evening, and good night.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: andy06shake

400 days... I remember you were saying Ukraine was going to kick Russian butt out of the entire country 400 days ago.

And Putin said he would take out all of Ukraine in 4 days. That "Special Military Operation" does not seem to have worked either.

a reply to: andy06shake

I think that's what we call a marriage of convenience TheRedneck for the time being.

It's also called "closing a deal" and can lead to a permanent relationship.

Behind closed doors China is eying up the Russian bear for exactly what it is, that being antiquated and on its arse.

Actually, China has been eyeing Russian resources for quite some time. Look at the geography of China: they have no water ports except on their east coast, and that means tankers have to travel around the horn of India (which, again, has historically been China's enemy) and through Indonesia (hard to navigate and full of countries like the USA that China sees as potential enemies) to get oil to China from the Persian Gulf. That's a long trip with a lot of potential problems for something as necessary as energy. To the southeast lie the Himalayan Mountain range... not gonna get a pipeline through that. Hence most of China's power plants have been coal. They have that in abundance, but they don't have a lot of oil or LNG. But Russia does, and a pipeline across that border is pretty darn fast and secure.

That's why China is eyeing Russia. They want energy to grow and the coal is screwing up their air. That is not going to change if the Russia-Ukraine skirmish stops. All that changes has already changed: China is a better trade partner to Russia than Europe.

It makes little sense to invade Russia when Russia is already pumping China everything they need as fast as they can.

As to change well thats always in the post.

The present is the summation of the past.

I support subduing Russia and standing against them as a show of force.

Subduing Russia... and if Russia fights back against this insubordination?

People do not like to be subdued.

In my mind, Putin cannot be allowed to prevail. I don't have a problem with Russia or her people.

Didn't you just say Russia needs to be subdued? And then oppressed by a show of force?

If I were Russian and read that, I would not be very friendly to the West either. Substitute "the UK" for "Russia"... I bet you wouldn't enjoy hearing that statement either.

As to paths to peace, need to come to the table to do that, and neither Ukraine nor Russia seems willing or able to do so just yet, and probably won't anytime soon as sad as the case may be.

Let me ask you this: if you were able to speak to Putin, what reason would you be able to give him to come to the table? What could you offer him that he would believe you? After he has already been sanctioned, had NATO weapons turned on him, and pretty much been the ball in a global game of kickball?

The USA could get Zelensky to the table, no problem. Just threaten to withhold additional aid. But what could we offer Putin? We're going to lift sanctions that aren't hurting him or Russia?

Point of fact all that Russia has served to achieve by way of her invasion of Ukraine is to double her borders with NATO nations.

True enough. But wasn't that the very thing Putin wanted to avoid? Now, by avoiding it, he gets more? Is that not pushing him ever closer to the edge?

Enjoying it as well.. see you tomorrow.

TheRedneck

a reply to: schuyler

And Putin said he would take out all of Ukraine in 4 days. That "Special Military Operation" does not seem to have worked either.

I think you're missing some context there.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Subduing Russia... and if Russia fights back against this insubordination?

Russia did start it by way of invading Ukraine, if they want to fight then they have to lose, or they need to be given the losses, that they do not want to fight any longer, or are able to continue to do so.

War is hell TheRedneck, but winning is the objective, else why bother to even fight?

Didn't you just say Russia needs to be subdued? And then oppressed by a show of force?

Indeed i did, Russian need to be stopped in Ukraine. How do you subdue or dissuade an opposing force, if not by a greater force?

See asking them nicely to go back home does not seem to work very well.

Let me ask you this: if you were able to speak to Putin, what reason would you be able to give him to come to the table?

Do i get to simply shoot him in the head when he refuses to capitulate or play nice(joke of sorts, but maybe not, considering whats took place)?

Because he doesn't appear to wish to see reason and point of fact the world may indeed be a better, safer place, without him in it.

The only problem being he becomes a martyr and his replacement might turn out to be even worse.

Be better if one of his own takes him out the game, that way its on them and not anyone else.

What could you offer him that he would believe you?

Well, that would depend on the situation, but he's dug the hole for himself and Russia.

Im not quite sure what would satisfy his agenda bar a return of Russia to some kind of semblance of the Soviet Union which is completely untenable and off the cards.

He could be offered a choice i suppose, to repent and live, or continue to do as he pleases and reap what he sows.

After he has already been sanctioned, had NATO weapons turned on him, and pretty much been the ball in a global game of kickball?

And why is that again? Because they did not just decide to pick on poor Vladimir.

The USA could get Zelensky to the table, no problem. Just threaten to withhold additional aid. But what could we offer Putin? We're going to lift sanctions that aren't hurting him or Russia?

Its not just the USA that are providing Ukraine with aid but quite a few NATO nations.

If Russia were willing to see reason depart Ukraine and give back what was stolen, they could be brought back into the fold eventually, but not with Putin at the helm.

True enough. But wasn't that the very thing Putin wanted to avoid? Now, by avoiding it, he gets more? Is that not pushing him ever closer to the edge?

Maybe he should have thought of the ramifications and repercussions before invading Ukraine because all he has bought is a bigger problem and one that's going to be rather hard to police and defend, given the increase in border size.

Enjoying it as well.. see you tomorrow.

Will do, a cracker of a day as well.

Happy Easter by the way.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Let me ask you this: if you were able to speak to Putin, what reason would you be able to give him to come to the table?

You keep turning the table Redneck. Give one good reason why anyone should sit with a repeated liar who has build up towards this war for more than a decade?

I keep telling people to look at the draft proposals he (Russia) sent to USA and NATO November just before the invasion, it gives a good glimpse into his mind and who he respects. The USA and then NATO... Ask yourself why.

Ask yourself if you'd ever negotiate with someone of that mindset.

Sure we could just begin giving him what he wants and deny everyone else there's but we'd also be denying our very moral fabric while we're at it.

Our fabric (flags) share colours for a reason.

Is it really the West that needs to back down? Seems we've barely stood up to me.

a reply to: andy06shake

Russia did start it by way of invading Ukraine

I don't disagree with that. The invasion was a bad thing. Period. It should never have happened.

War is hell TheRedneck, but winning is the objective, else why bother to even fight?

Let me turn a phrase on you here:

"War is hell TheRedneck, but winning is the objective, else why bother to have peace?

Sounds like the same meaning to me.

Indeed i did, Russian need to be stopped in Ukraine.

You did not say the Russian invasion needed to be subdued; you said Russia needs to be subdued. Those are two different things.

See asking them nicely to go back home does not seem to work very well.

I will agree that such would likely be completely unfruitful. However, I have to point out that even that has not been tried. The second word got out of one Russian soldier on Ukrainian soil, the response was set: GET OUT OR ELSE!

I don't disagree with that, but it was not exactly what I would call "asking nicely."

Do i get to simply shoot him in the head when he refuses to capitulate or play nice(joke of sorts, but maybe not, considering whats took place)?

I wouldn't consider that a good negotiation tactic.

I'm less worried about Putin becoming a martyr in himself than I am the signal that would send to the rest of the non-Westernized globe: "Do as we say or we will kill your leader, too."

Let me ask you this: if you were to have a slight change of heart and decide to negotiate with Putin, seeing as it seems his death is the only result you would ever be satisfied with, how do you think he would respond? How would you respond if someone sat across from you and said, "The only solution is if you kill yourself. Then we can talk about the problem."

Like it or not the Russian people elected Vladimir Putin to be their leader. He is in charge. It is he who must be negotiated with to achieve peace.

Im not quite sure what would satisfy his agenda bar a return of Russia to some kind of semblance of the Soviet Union which is completely untenable and off the cards.

Yeah, that's the problem in a nutshell. No one has asked him what he wants. Therefore no one knows what he wants. Oh, there are plenty of theories flying around, but wouldn't Putin know best what Putin wants?

Does andy06shake know what andy06shake wants? Or maybe others know what andy06shake wants better than andy06shake.

And why is that again?

You tell me. It's been that way since long before the invasion, since long before Crimea, all the way back to the day the wall fell.

Its not just the USA that are providing Ukraine with aid but quite a few NATO nations.

Th USA makes up the vast, vast bulk of the aid. The rest of NATO just does as the USA tells them to. And last I heard, some were starting to get cold feet since their own military reserves were being stretched thin.

Maybe he should have thought of the ramifications and repercussions before invading Ukraine because all he has bought is a bigger problem and one that's going to be rather hard to police and defend, given the increase in border size.

Well, that's your perspective. I doubt it's Putin's perspective.

This is not Captain Planet. People do not just wake up one morning and decide to do horrific things. Something drives them to do it. Maybe that something is ridiculously minor with respect to their actions; maybe the thing that drove them is irrelevant to anyone else, but something does drive every such action.

What drove this one? If we only knew, we cold perhaps negotiate and end the invasion, stop the killing, and return the captured areas to Ukraine. Or we can ignore any causes, make our assumptions, and go another 400 days of Ukraine losing ground while draining the Western economies and strengthening the Russia-China alliance we have created.

Tough choice.

Happy Easter to you as well.

TheRedneck

a reply to: RAY1990

You keep turning the table Redneck.

Thank you! Yes, I am trying to turn the table! The problem is most people are stuck on their side and cannot see the rest of the table.

Give one good reason why anyone should sit with a repeated liar who has build up towards this war for more than a decade?

In hopes of maybe ending the invasion, stopping the killing, and returning the captured areas to Ukraine.

Unless we just don't really want that. I am admittedly making an assumption about what the West wants here.

Ask yourself if you'd ever negotiate with someone of that mindset.

Only if I wanted to end the invasion, stop the killing, and return the captured areas to Ukraine. Otherwise, I wouldn't.

Sure we could just begin giving him what he wants and deny everyone else there's

Is it really the West that needs to back down?

I never said any of that. Ever.

Seems we've barely stood up to me.

Damn, I'm afraid to imagine what you would consider "standing up"! We've already bankrupted the USA and depleted US military reserves, tried to sanction everything we possibly could think of, and even said mean things about Putin. Andy06shake wants him dead.

How many trillions of dollars constitutes "standing up"?

TheRedneck