CBDC incoming, FEDNOW to launch in July

a reply to: tanstaafl

As far as the User is concerned, yes, they are settling in real time.

Yes, the back-end final settlement with the bitcoin blockchain will take a little longer, but not that long, but that is invisible and irrelevant to the user.

Which opens up a whole new can of worms.

Trust vs trustless. As an entire system. Going the L2 route is simply recreating clearing houses of the present.

While this makes BTC much more attractive, pretending its something better is not accurate.

If it works reliably, so what? Seriously? What does it matter if it takes 10 minutes after the user leaves Starbucks before the transaction is settled on the blockchain?

Because the time and costs still rise with volume. Unlike the above mentioned clearing houses.

Yep, and it failed miserably.

And that was in a tyrannical dictatorship.

Banks, govts etc cant kill BTC, sure. Not while there is power and hardware which BTC and its proponents have very little control over.

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: ScepticScot
Was the seller able to spend their new funds immediately?

Ummm... do you think the merchant is going to let someone walk out without verification that they paid?

The settlement layer has this function built into it.

Are you under the mistaken belief that VISA transactions actually transfer actual funds between bank accounts in real time? They have a settlement layer too, you know.

This is supposedly what FedNow is going to address... truly instant settlements.

ETA: and that would pout them one-up on bitcoin, but not Lightning, which already has instantaneous Layer2 settlement. Yes, ultimate settlement with the blockchain takes a few mintes longer, but as long as it works reliably, do you really, honestly care? Or do you just like to argue?

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: JinMI

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: ScepticScot

Bought one post faster payments and it took 2 minutes on banking app.

Can you elaborate?

Took seller's bank details.

Put them in app and transferred the money.

He checked his app to see money arrived (which is more or less instant).

Drove away 5 minutes later.

Simple as that.

Was the seller able to spend their new funds immediately?

Yep. Clears instantly most cases.

Faster payments started in the UK in the late 00s although took a few years to become common.

Previously BACS payments took 3 days. There was same day option but was expensive and a pain to do.

Most banking transactions in UK are free of charge.

Thats actually pretty cool then. Any fees?

Ive not found a useful utility for doing that. Theres cashapp and vemmo etc but youre subject to fees and no culpability. Say if the car is a lemon or the seller was criminally dishonest.

How much money will everyone have after an EMP or even just a massive power failure?

Can you count digital money by candlelight?

a reply to: tanstaafl

Ummm... do you think the merchant is going to let someone walk out without verification that they paid?

Sure you want to apply this logic?

Cause if you are, im gonna write you a 10k check right now. When you cash it, just send me back 1k to cover my costs.

Deal?

originally posted by: JinMI

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: JinMI

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: ScepticScot

Bought one post faster payments and it took 2 minutes on banking app.

Can you elaborate?

Took seller's bank details.

Put them in app and transferred the money.

He checked his app to see money arrived (which is more or less instant).

Drove away 5 minutes later.

Simple as that.

Was the seller able to spend their new funds immediately?

Yep. Clears instantly most cases.

Faster payments started in the UK in the late 00s although took a few years to become common.

Previously BACS payments took 3 days. There was same day option but was expensive and a pain to do.

Most banking transactions in UK are free of charge.

Thats actually pretty cool then. Any fees?

Ive not found a useful utility for doing that. Theres cashapp and vemmo etc but youre subject to fees and no culpability. Say if the car is a lemon or the seller was criminally dishonest.

Not on payments, withdrawals etc.

They charge fees for some extra services or if you go beyond your overdraft limit.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
How much money will everyone have after an EMP or even just a massive power failure?

Can you count digital money by candlelight?

How much nurishment does cash, gold and silver have after an EMP?



I think we all know that if an EMP hits, we have much bigger issues than money. The value of everything shifts exponentially.

originally posted by: JinMI

originally posted by: DBCowboy
How much money will everyone have after an EMP or even just a massive power failure?

Can you count digital money by candlelight?

How much nurishment does cash, gold and silver have after an EMP?

I think we all know that if an EMP hits, we have much bigger issues than money. The value of everything shifts exponentially.

I can take a silver coin and buy nourishment after a power collapse.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: JinMI

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: JinMI

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: ScepticScot

Bought one post faster payments and it took 2 minutes on banking app.

Can you elaborate?

Took seller's bank details.

Put them in app and transferred the money.

He checked his app to see money arrived (which is more or less instant).

Drove away 5 minutes later.

Simple as that.

Was the seller able to spend their new funds immediately?

Yep. Clears instantly most cases.

Faster payments started in the UK in the late 00s although took a few years to become common.

Previously BACS payments took 3 days. There was same day option but was expensive and a pain to do.

Most banking transactions in UK are free of charge.

Thats actually pretty cool then. Any fees?

Ive not found a useful utility for doing that. Theres cashapp and vemmo etc but youre subject to fees and no culpability. Say if the car is a lemon or the seller was criminally dishonest.

Not on payments, withdrawals etc.

They charge fees for some extra services or if you go beyond your overdraft limit.

So there was no fee applied to the transaction at all?

You paid say 500, they received 500 exactly?

a reply to: DBCowboy

True, i couldnt say that it definately wouldnt happen.

But I wouldnt trade my food for silver. Anecdotally.

originally posted by: JinMI

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: JinMI

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: JinMI

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: ScepticScot

Bought one post faster payments and it took 2 minutes on banking app.

Can you elaborate?

Took seller's bank details.

Put them in app and transferred the money.

He checked his app to see money arrived (which is more or less instant).

Drove away 5 minutes later.

Simple as that.

Was the seller able to spend their new funds immediately?

Yep. Clears instantly most cases.

Faster payments started in the UK in the late 00s although took a few years to become common.

Previously BACS payments took 3 days. There was same day option but was expensive and a pain to do.

Most banking transactions in UK are free of charge.

Thats actually pretty cool then. Any fees?

Ive not found a useful utility for doing that. Theres cashapp and vemmo etc but youre subject to fees and no culpability. Say if the car is a lemon or the seller was criminally dishonest.

Not on payments, withdrawals etc.

They charge fees for some extra services or if you go beyond your overdraft limit.

So there was no fee applied to the transaction at all?

You paid say 500, they received 500 exactly?

Yes what left my account is what they received.

If I was switching currencies or something like that fees would be charged but not for domestic transfers.

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: tanstaafl

Which opens up a whole new can of worms.

Trust vs trustless. As an entire system. Going the L2 route is simply recreating clearing houses of the present.

Yes, but a truly decentralized clearing house. And again, as long as it works reliably... so what?

Because the time and costs still rise with volume.

Time? The Lightning can handle a million transactions per second, compared to Mastercards 5,000 and VISA's 24,000. Costs? Fractions of a penny per transaction...

a reply to: ScepticScot

Yea, thats actually pretty cool.

I mean the waters get murkier the greater the cost and assets but for simple stuff, im not aware of anything analogous.


Did you two have the same bank?

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: ScepticScot
Theres cashapp

CashApp works with Lightning
[tanstaafl ducks as JinMI swings a powerful right cross]

Say if the car is a lemon or the seller was criminally dishonest.

Yes, that is one advantage to using a CC that I really like... but it comes at a cost (total loss of privacy, etc etc ad nauseum)...

a reply to: tanstaafl

Yes, but a truly decentralized clearing house. And again, as long as it works reliably... so what?

Except its not truly decentralized. While it may be more centralized, its not entirely decentralized and its still not instant.

If it works reliably, then why not use the new fangled Fednow system?

Im not arguing against you BTW, Im arguing that BTC surely isnt the end all, be all.

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: ScepticScot

Yea, thats actually pretty cool.

I mean the waters get murkier the greater the cost and assets but for simple stuff, im not aware of anything analogous.


Did you two have the same bank?

I can't recall what bank he used was a few years ago but it applies across banks anyway.

Regularly transfer funds to wife's account (too regularly actually) which is a completely different bank. No charges apply.

a reply to: tanstaafl

Still not instant settlements and still has fees and time based on volume.



*counters with an uppercut*

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: tanstaafl

Ummm... do you think the merchant is going to let someone walk out without verification that they paid?

Sure you want to apply this logic?

Cause if you are, im gonna write you a 10k check right now. When you cash it, just send me back 1k to cover my costs.

Deal?

Ummm... no?

Your logic escapes me. In what universe does your suggestion equate to someone using a thoroughly tested and proven decentralized permissionless payment system that involves a short period of time on the back-end to fully settle each individual transaction in large enough batches to reduce the cost to virtually zero?

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: tanstaafl

Still not instant settlements

It is instant as far as the buyer and seller are concerned. Only the network is concerned with the very short delay in final settlement.

and still has fees and time based on volume.

Since the Lightning network can handle 50 times more transactions than VISA can right now, and it is getting faster every day as more and more nodes come on line, and the transactions cost stay the same (because they are batched in optimal batch sizes to optimize the costs when settling with the blockchain), your argument... fails.



*counters with an uppercut*

a reply to: tanstaafl

Again because;

At volume, L2 increases in time to settle and price to transact.

Its a scaling issue. The same issue prevelant in almost all crypto. The same reason ETH switched to PoS. Millions if not billions of dollars spent in research and development.

Meanwhile, the trust systems of the ACHs remain completely static.

Its probably the largest hurdle of crypto next to usage from individuals to multinational finance.