CBDC incoming, FEDNOW to launch in July

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: tanstaafl
I'm an android guy but as far as I am aware apple pay works the same as the Google version and links to a bank account.

Not the same as converting crypto to local currency.

What matters is what matters.

Can someone use bitcoin to buy Starbucks? The answer is yes, and it is very easy.

If you want to complain about the fact that the bitcoin has to be converted first because Starbucks doesn't yet take bitcoin payment directly, that is fine, and true, but irrelevant to whether or not you can a) walk into Starbucks, b) buy some of their disgusting waaaaay overpriced sludge they call coffee, and c) walk out, having spent some sats.

Yes in a less convenient manner than using a debit card or payment app.

As a method of payment bitcoin still has a long long way to go.(which it probably wont).

originally posted by: JinMI
Amazon doesnt really care when my hundred bucks actually clears.

Now my plumber, he definately cares.

Not to be overly contrary, but now they do. By limiting settlement to seconds they no longer have to wait to utilize their funds. For your plumber the upside is obvious, he gets his money immediately. For Amazon, even having a few million dollars for an extra half a day every day adds up over the course of a year, but in reality, their settlement is much more than this.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

To be clear, Im not poopooing the notion of the fed program and speeds of settlements.

Im leery about the notion of giving more power and wealth to a system that has a history of being malicious.

DiDs are far more worriesome in my eyes. Less actual banks are more worriesome. Having a third party on/off switch probably my highest worry.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: tanstaafl
I'm an android guy but as far as I am aware apple pay works the same as the Google version and links to a bank account.

Not the same as converting crypto to local currency.

What matters is what matters.

Can someone use bitcoin to buy Starbucks? The answer is yes, and it is very easy.

If you want to complain about the fact that the bitcoin has to be converted first because Starbucks doesn't yet take bitcoin payment directly, that is fine, and true, but irrelevant to whether or not you can a) walk into Starbucks, b) buy some of their disgusting waaaaay overpriced sludge they call coffee, and c) walk out, having spent some sats.

Yes in a less convenient manner than using a debit card or payment app.

As a method of payment bitcoin still has a long long way to go.(which it probably wont).

Instead of Starbucks, lets use say Scots Coffee shop.

JinMi buys Scots coffee for his whole shop, which depletes Scots resources. Now Scot has to replentish his supplies in order to operate tomorrow.

However the transaction hasnt cleared yet.

JinMi has paid, Scot has been paid but the transaction has yet to be settled and now Scot is in the disposition due to no fault of his own.

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: tanstaafl

Pass/failing of transactions isnt a logical bar. Now how about thouroghput wit volume? We know how high transaction fees get with volume. Far outpacing the cost of the transaction.

Lightning is extremely fast (essentially instantaneous), can handle very high volumes (up to one millioon transactions per SECOND), at fractions of a penny per transaction.

What does energy and mining have to do with the centralization of the entire infrastrucure? Simple, ASICS are produced where? Rely on whos power grid?

That is an interesting definition of 'centralized'. It is certainly not the definition of a centralized network or protocol, but yeah, most mining rigs rely on the centralized power grids around the world, as do all other electronic payment systems.

But the network, the protocol, is absolutely decentralized, and that is the most important part.

It is more decentralized than any fiat for example but not decentralized enough to not be manipulated by a countries power grid,

I'm not sure how a country would go about trying to manipulate the bitcoin network via manipulating its own power grid, but I wouldn't be surprised at anything some governments would do to try to impose their tyrannical will on others.

govt policy

China was home to the majority of bitcoin mining, and when they kicked them all out, it barely phased the network, and it recovered and grew shortly afterwards.

or production of the required hardware.

That could affect growth, sure, but not the existing network.

Anyway, I'm certainly not saying bitcoin is perfect, but its as close to perfect as we've ever gotten when it comes to fair and honest money.

originally posted by: JinMI

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: tanstaafl
I'm an android guy but as far as I am aware apple pay works the same as the Google version and links to a bank account.

Not the same as converting crypto to local currency.

What matters is what matters.

Can someone use bitcoin to buy Starbucks? The answer is yes, and it is very easy.

If you want to complain about the fact that the bitcoin has to be converted first because Starbucks doesn't yet take bitcoin payment directly, that is fine, and true, but irrelevant to whether or not you can a) walk into Starbucks, b) buy some of their disgusting waaaaay overpriced sludge they call coffee, and c) walk out, having spent some sats.

Yes in a less convenient manner than using a debit card or payment app.

As a method of payment bitcoin still has a long long way to go.(which it probably wont).

Instead of Starbucks, lets use say Scots Coffee shop.

JinMi buys Scots coffee for his whole shop, which depletes Scots resources. Now Scot has to replentish his supplies in order to operate tomorrow.

However the transaction hasnt cleared yet.

JinMi has paid, Scot has been paid but the transaction has yet to be settled and now Scot is in the disposition due to no fault of his own.

Yep faster settlement suits both customers and retailers.

I remember buying a car outright pre faster payments and it required going into a bank branch to get a cashiers cheque (which had to pay for) so I could collect car same day.

Bought one post faster payments and it took 2 minutes on banking app.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: tanstaafl
Yes in a less convenient manner than using a debit card or payment app.

How is it less convenient? Once it is set up, its set up. Set it and forget it.

As a method of payment bitcoin still has a long long way to go.(which it probably wont).

Actually it's well on its way.

As I said, it gets better every day.

Look at what Jack Dorsey is doing wrt integrating lightning with Block (formerly Square). Do you know how many people and business (small and medium) use Square? My wide does with her business.

It is called the tipping point, and I bitcoin/lightning is very close.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: tanstaafl
It is no different than ApplePay.

The fact that you think ApplePay and some niche Bitcoin Layer 2 are analogous shows you don't understand the payments industry in the slightest.

They are both electronic payment systems. Yes, Lightning is still in its infancy, and it doesn't have unlimited resources on tap, instead it relies on innovators doing what they do...

As for Lightning being niche, ApplePay was niche when it first launched too.

originally posted by: ScepticScot


Well no you can convert bitcoin to buy starbucks.

It may be an easy process but that's still different from paying directly

Yes, of course...

But give it time...

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: tanstaafl
Yes in a less convenient manner than using a debit card or payment app.

How is it less convenient? Once it is set up, its set up. Set it and forget it.

As a method of payment bitcoin still has a long long way to go.(which it probably wont).

Actually it's well on its way.

As I said, it gets better every day.

Look at what Jack Dorsey is doing wrt integrating lightning with Block (formerly Square). Do you know how many people and business (small and medium) use Square? My wide does with her business.

It is called the tipping point, and I bitcoin/lightning is very close.

Because I can spend money on my bank card payment app instantly. I don't need to do anything in advance and I am not limiting where I can spend it to retailers that accept that particular app.

People have been talking about a tipping point for crypto for years. It always seeks to be just around the corner.

I'm not saying crypto currencies have no use as a payment method, but for the vast majority of payments they are still inferior to conventional banking.

a reply to: tanstaafl

Lightning is extremely fast (essentially instantaneous), can handle very high volumes (up to one millioon transactions per SECOND), at fractions of a penny per transaction.

Even if you are able to overcome the problem of cost per validation you still arent settling in real time.

L2 essentially creates a colloqial clearing house to be settled at a later time and splitting the transaction costs among many would be transactions. And thats on top of the validation costs.

China was home to the majority of bitcoin mining, and when they kicked them all out, it barely phased the network, and it recovered and grew shortly afterwards.

Right, they tried to shed the profits of miners while keeping the hardware production.......

Thats called manipulation.

That could affect growth, sure, but not the existing network.

Anyway, I'm certainly not saying bitcoin is perfect, but its as close to perfect as we've ever gotten when it comes to fair and honest money.

When quantum computing comes along, perhaps then will be able to contend. Unfortunately the entire cryptosphere believes their idea is better. In some cases they are right, in many, not so much.

While trying to make the wheel perfectly round theyve allowed for their competition to build a shiny wheel thats attractive to banks, industry and governments.

originally posted by: CriticalStinker
a reply to: tanstaafl

But the whole point of crypto is eliminating as much counter party risk as possible.

Lightning doesn't introduce any counter party risk.

The same goes for interacting with exchanges like Coinbase more than an on-ramp and off ramp. Not your keys, not your wallet.

Yep. And you can run your own Lightning node, just like you can run your own bitcoin node.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Bought one post faster payments and it took 2 minutes on banking app.

Can you elaborate?

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: ScepticScot

Bought one post faster payments and it took 2 minutes on banking app.

Can you elaborate?

Took seller's bank details.

Put them in app and transferred the money.

He checked his app to see money arrived (which is more or less instant).

Drove away 5 minutes later.

Simple as that.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: tanstaafl
Because I can spend money on my bank card payment app instantly. I don't need to do anything in advance

You have to download and install the app. You have to enter your credentials into the app and save them.

and I am not limiting where I can spend it to retailers that accept that particular app.

True, and I certainly never said it was ubiquitous, did I?

But give it time. When Block (formerly Square) gets it fully integrated, that I think will be the tipping point... unless Elon beats Jack to the punch with his integration of his new X payments platform with bitcoin/Lightning fully integrated

People have been talking about a tipping point for crypto for years. It always seeks to be just around the corner.

Anyone who lumps bitcoin in with all of the other #coins doesn't understand bitcoin. It is inherently different.

I'm not saying crypto currencies have no use as a payment method, but for the vast majority of payments they are still inferior to conventional banking.

Yes. For now. Just like ApplePay was for the first few years after it launched.

a reply to: litterbaux

yeah, um no.

Just no.

I like cash. Gold and silver.

Too old and too suspicious of government dictating my money.

If I can't hide it in a coffee can in the backyard then it's a solid nope for this boomer.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: ScepticScot

Bought one post faster payments and it took 2 minutes on banking app.

Can you elaborate?

Took seller's bank details.

Put them in app and transferred the money.

He checked his app to see money arrived (which is more or less instant).

Drove away 5 minutes later.

Simple as that.

Was the seller able to spend their new funds immediately?

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: tanstaafl
Because I can spend money on my bank card payment app instantly. I don't need to do anything in advance

You have to download and install the app. You have to enter your credentials into the app and save them.

and I am not limiting where I can spend it to retailers that accept that particular app.

True, and I certainly never said it was ubiquitous, did I?

But give it time. When Block (formerly Square) gets it fully integrated, that I think will be the tipping point... unless Elon beats Jack to the punch with his integration of his new X payments platform with bitcoin/Lightning fully integrated

People have been talking about a tipping point for crypto for years. It always seeks to be just around the corner.

Anyone who lumps bitcoin in with all of the other #coins doesn't understand bitcoin. It is inherently different.

I'm not saying crypto currencies have no use as a payment method, but for the vast majority of payments they are still inferior to conventional banking.

Yes. For now. Just like ApplePay was for the first few years after it launched.

Where as to pay with bitcoin you have to do all that again on a specific app for that purpose and transfer funds in advance to use it. As I said less convenient.

Bitcoin was launched 5 years before applepay.

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: tanstaafl

Even if you are able to overcome the problem of cost per validation you still arent settling in real time.

As far as the User is concerned, yes, they are settling in real time.

Yes, the back-end final settlement with the bitcoin blockchain will take a little longer, but not that long, but that is invisible and irrelevant to the user.

L2 essentially creates a colloqial clearing house to be settled at a later time and splitting the transaction costs among many would be transactions.

If it works reliably, so what? Seriously? What does it matter if it takes 10 minutes after the user leaves Starbucks before the transaction is settled on the blockchain?

And thats on top of the validation costs.

Yes... fractions of a penny per transaction. Woe is me!

Right, they tried to shed the profits of miners while keeping the hardware production.......

Thats called manipulation.

Yep, and it failed miserably.

And that was in a tyrannical dictatorship.

originally posted by: JinMI

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: ScepticScot

Bought one post faster payments and it took 2 minutes on banking app.

Can you elaborate?

Took seller's bank details.

Put them in app and transferred the money.

He checked his app to see money arrived (which is more or less instant).

Drove away 5 minutes later.

Simple as that.

Was the seller able to spend their new funds immediately?

Yep. Clears instantly most cases.

Faster payments started in the UK in the late 00s although took a few years to become common.

Previously BACS payments took 3 days. There was same day option but was expensive and a pain to do.

Most banking transactions in UK are free of charge.