Well, seems we're now at war with Russia....

Hello ATS.

keeping in line with the insane and self-destructive policies that the UK parliament has been rattling off lately, they've gone and outdone themselves entirely!

We're sending Challenger 2 tanks to the Ukraine! Yippeeee!!!!

No one was asked in the UK if this was okay to do, the people aren't being consulted and Richi Sanook (Bidens name for our PM) has decided, all on his own, that he's going to send one the worlds most powerful weapons of war to the Ukraine..... 10 of them to be exact, which crosses Putins red line at least 10 times more than we'd like to.

Of course this is being treated as an act of God himself in the UK media, they're all fawning over Richi's 'brave' and 'wonderful' symbolic move. We are, after all, just helping the poor, defenseless Ukrainians to fight off the evil and nasty Russians. What's being completely overlooked again, as usual, is the precedent this sets and Russia's inevitable response.

When did it become agreeable that foreign powers intercede for nations which have absolutely zero bearing on their own prosperity and national interest, or security - it's actually backwards in the Ukraine!

When did it become okay for a nuclear power to arm another nuclear powered countries enemy with modern and devastating weaponry, and expect ZERO RETALIATION!

Russia HAS to act on this decision, if they don't then the rest of the world (the war hawk first world that is) has just taken this move as a green light to absolutely FLOOD Ukraine with all of their modern weaponry, as it's now the testing ground it seems for the effectiveness of the hardware in the real world. Russia, absolutely, will respond to this massive provocation, and I don't think we're going to like the response.

The Challenger 2 tank is absolutely NOT to be undermined, one has never been destroyed in combat. They're incredibly strong and capable of some serious firepower and destruction. Russia will be forced to massively increase their bombardment of the Ukraine in order to disrupt the usage of such weapons - and we know that other countries will follow suit. Russia may even strike the UK for this move - it's not out of the realm of possibility now, given the one-upsmanship we're now engaged with.

Putin set the red line, why, oh why, are we just waltzing across it? No matter your opinion of the man himself, red lines are just that for a reason.

I'm not 'afraid' of Putin, nor am I particularly fond of him either, however, I know a war hawk, death obsessed leader when I see one, and Zelensky is just that, he'd start a nuclear war tomorrow if he could, he tried it once...... The rising tensions, and now heavy, heavy weapons being shipped into the Ukraine are making it impossible for any conclusion to this war other than the outright devastation of the Ukraine.....

Why are we doing this? Diplomacy needs a chance, the Ukraine has already lost this war, we all know this. Why are our leaders still continuing this meaningless escalation, it's only going to cost so many more Ukrainian lives! They don't even have electricity at the moment. I'd be massively surprised if Zelensky was even IN the Ukraine right now.

Screw Richi Sanook for doing this! Screw the lot of them!

The world just became a massively more unstable place, thanks UK, once again leading the way in the escalation of war overseas..... Shame on us.

a reply to: Joneselius

Does Russia have an equivalency of the Javelin missile or NLAW worth a darn?

I don't think the TPTB in government generally ask the British public as to which weapons systems get sent abroad to war.

It's not like they have referendums on the subject far as im aware.

We are in it to win it Joneselius, Putin and Russia need to be sent back to whence they came.

NATO is a team effort and we are on the side of Ukraine.

Don't stop them there Poland would be next, and then that's world war 3 by default.

I heard a good theory as to why everyone is pushing weapons and training into the Ukraine.

After the initial euphoria wore off at how bad the russian military is doing, the realized that if ukraine falls russia will have to move on poland next to help secure mother russia. (in part because of their huge population problem)

If that happens NATO must fight them and will mop the floor with them, which will then put putin in the realm of thinking I have to use nukes to stop russia from being conquered.

Not saying its the right plan (I dont kow) but it does offer a little more context on the weapon systems and training.

I still say a full audit needs to be done for the money sent, but yea wish in one hand poop in the other and see which fills first.

It's a strange thing. I wasn't going to post because, as I have stated many times before, I don't wish to give offense to members out of the inevitable ignorance I would have to show, not being familiar with the environment so far away.

I am surprised that this clearly militaristic act would be executed without any notice to the UK citizens. I understand that the citizens might not have a say in it - ultimately. When it comes to matters of international war, nothing, no heads up at all? This is not a criticism of your country, America is not far behind in ironically idiotic foreign activity. Hell, we still 'think' that we are actually 'told by media' what's happening in the world. We still listen to the talking heads and celebrities and follow their 'lead.'

But I wonder - what possible need is there to extend the destruction of a country, and increase the deaths of innocents? Why is NATO driving your military into this? Is it wrong to consider this the strictly NATO-driven war event it appears to be? Don't you guys have a new King? Where does he figure into this overtly war-like action? Are there any in the UK who are pressing for peace? Or are their ideas treated as poorly as they are here.

The "red line" was Putin starting this war in the first place by invading Ukraine. Why don't you elect Chamberlain Prime Minister again? It seemed to work so well last time.

a reply to: Maxmars

Don't you guys have a new King? Where does he figure into this overtly war-like action?

The UK is a constitutional monarchy Maxmars.

King Charles doesn't really hold much sway there and will most lightly listen to his generals because he doesn't really know that much about war compared to people that actually do.

NATO exists to stop Russian expansion and that's exactly what she will do.

Peace can only be attained by Russia going back home if in doubt ask Ukraine.

Coz they are not in the wrong postcode, that's the Russian federation forces.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Joneselius

Does Russia have an equivalency of the Javelin missile or NLAW worth a darn?

I don't think the TPTB in government generally ask the British public as to which weapons systems get sent abroad to war.

It's not like they have referendums on the subject far as im aware.

We are in it to win it Joneselius, Putin and Russia need to be sent back to whence they came.

NATO is a team effort and we are on the side of Ukraine.

Don't stop them there Poland would be next, and then that's world war 3 by default.

Who is 'we'? I'm certainly not on the side of the Ukraine in all of this, they're just as bad as Russia, if not worse - their ongoing persecution of ALL dissenter and Christians in their country makes me physically sick, as it should you. Zelenksky is a tyrant.

We are not 'in it to win it' either, the Ukraine has already lost this war, anybody with a lick of sense can see that, go and look at satellite images of the Ukraine at night, they have NO power, none. The western media is lying to us about the utter devastation in the Ukraine - this is why I said it would surprise me if Zelensky is even in the Ukraine at all. The Ukraine absolutely will not win this war, at all.

Poland would be next? What are you on about, you're making assumptions based on war hawk western NATO mindset ideals. Russia has shown zero interest in attacking Poland or the 'west' for that matter. Until they started backing their enemy in a war.

The British people have been put in imminent danger on behalf of a regime led by a comedian, all to eager to start nuclear war. That puts me on edge. I hate war. Why should I be okay with my country supplying weapons to a foreign power who squashes the one people group I care about - Christians.......

I'm absolutely not okay with this at all. The Ukraine has lost, the sooner we see that the more Ukrainian lives will be saved. We're only fighting this conflict down to the last Ukrainian it seems...... It's always okay when it's somebody else dying.

a reply to: schuyler

Your post is not made in good conscience but I'll respond anyway.

Russia did invade the Ukraine yes, but you're saying it was completely without precedent? Ukraine did nothing at all? NATO did nothing wrong? John Mccain did nothing wrong fomenting the colour revolution in Ukraine?

You do know that there was an entire, pro-Russian, section of the Ukraine that's been horribly, awfully persecuted and killed by Ukranian forces for a long time, yes? You understand that the Ukraine has been used as a 'go to' country for western malpractice in regards to biological weapons and money laundering, yes?

The Ukraine is not innocent. Nor is Russia, but to pretend that none of this had precedent is just awfully biased. Criminally so.

Also NATO don't have a single leg to stand on, does no one remember Kosovo at all, it's like it didn't happen! NATO is just as evil as the rest of them, warmongers.

a reply to: Joneselius

Who is 'we'? I'm certainly not on the side of the Ukraine in all of this

British government springs to mind who are part of NATO and one of the founding members of the North Atlantic Treaty.

That's your choice but its not the stance of the British government.

We are not 'in it to win it' either, the Ukraine has already lost this war, anybody with a lick of sense can see that, go and look at satellite images of the Ukraine at night, they have NO power, none.

That's just bollox, Russia has only just achieved there first quasi-victory since last June.

Poland would be next? What are you on about, you're making assumptions based on war hawk western NATO mindset ideals. Russia has shown zero interest in attacking Poland or the 'west' for that matter. Until they started backing their enemy in a war.

Do you mean people who know far more about the situation than you or me?

Yes Poland will be next that's just geography and following the classical Europen theater of war battle plan.

The British people have been put in imminent danger on behalf of a regime led by a comedian, all to eager to start nuclear war. That puts me on edge. I hate war. Why should I be okay with my country supplying weapons to a foreign power who squashes the one people group I care about - Christians

You're sounding a bit funny yourself with all the tripe you are punting.

I'm absolutely not okay with this at all. The Ukraine has lost, the sooner we see that the more Ukrainian lives will be saved. We're only fighting this conflict down to the last Ukrainian it seems...... It's always okay when it's somebody else dying.

Smashing but you absolutely don't have a say unless you wish to run for political office or join the military and attain somewhere along the lines of the position of general.

People die in war comrade, such is the way of life, be thankful it's them and not you because Russia simply cannot stop at Ukraine as and sane military tactician will tell you.

Its just Ukraine by the way and not "The Ukraine".

a reply to: Joneselius

Its a war of attrition and honestly i dont see how ukraine can win this either, at some point were not going to have the money and resources anymore to keep pumping them into Ukraine.

Our military is already saying that were going to have issues defending ourselves with all the equipment weve sent over.

And with the leftist policies of killing our fossil fuels, our military reserves and dead set on cutting production, were goign to have problems building our own surplus back up

In short , its just not sustainable, and when the US and UK can no longer fund and outfit the Ukraine, it will be over.

Putin should have not invaded, but as other posters have said, BOTH Putin and Zelenski are absolute tyrants and the people of both countries deserve better.

I could be wrong , yes i spent a lot of years myself in combat, but that absolutely doesnt make me a strategic mastermind.

I have been involved in Afghanistan and Iraq training and outfitting them though and we saw how well that worked out in the end

a reply to: andy06shake

The people who know better, yes, the same establishment who claimed WMD's in Iraq and that we had to kill Saddam.

War hawks are war hawks, they're selling a product to you, and you're buying it.

THE Ukraine has lost the war already, the media talking heads and wishful thinking won't change that, 100% the Ukraine has already lost this 'war'. Tell me 'comrade' what do YOU think Zelensky is doing with all that cash being funnelled to him right now? Seriously, it's a LOT of money, where is it going? What's it being spent on?

You're rooting for evil and you don't see it. There is no 'good' side in this conflict and now the UK has stuck it's big nose right into it. Sending these tanks is a mistake.

I'll say it for you again, the Ukraine has already lost this war, anyone with a honest bone in their body knows it, Russia controls all the key points and has not exhausted hardly any of its reserves at all. There's a reality, and then there's the media created reality (your one).....

Tell me, how, exactly, can Ukraine turn this absolute defeat around without outside, direct intervention, thereby pulling us all into conflict? It can't. Their entire energy network is completely in ruins!

It wasn't long ago people like yourself were talking about Russia being out of missiles! For crying out loud......

a reply to: ManBehindTheMask

Just like the jibby jabs, all the media needs to do is foment resistance to the truth being spoken.

I hate war altogether. Russia should not have invaded, I agree! They're both evil.

But it's too late for morality to prevail now. We have to operate in realities, and the reality is that the Ukraine can not, and will not win this war without starting a much wider and far bigger conflict. Zelensky knows this, hence when HIS missile landed in Poland he called for WW3 almost immediately.

It's impossible to make the blind see...... GIve them time.

a reply to: Joneselius

You can say whatever you please, still doesn't mean you get a say on what happens or what we send to Ukraine.

As to the war being lost, that's just silly.

I'm rooting for NATO because i can remember the last cold war era and know which side our bread is buttered, and that not Putin side up.

Russia are just about out of precision-guided missiles and munitions with no capability to build anymore same with all the tanks they have lost.

As to the use of Challenger 2 tanks, this fellow has some interesting points to make or the capabilities of the vehicle in question and the war in general.

www.youtube.com...

You should realise by the way the Russian advance is less than 4km and that has taken them a hell of a long time to achieve, never mind thousands of men life's a lot of them being recruited criminals amongst the Wagner ranks.

A senior defence source told the Sunday People that up to four Apaches will be sent – and they will follow 10 Challenger 2 main battle tanks. The insider said: “The Apache will be a major game-changer. The tanks will arrive first and it will take a while before helicopters can be deployed. Other Nato members will now follow suit. It is understood that Ukrainian pilots will be trained in the UK and a maintenance base will be established in a neighbouring country, such as Poland.

UK sends Apache helicopters

a reply to: oddnutz

Tank busters.

Each Apache can be armed with up to 16 anti-tank Hellfires, 76 Hydra 70mm rockets and a 30mm chain gun.

As long as air superiority is maintained those things will cut Russian tanks and APC in half in two shakes of a lambs tale.

Theoretically, 4 Apaches could wipe out an entire regiment of 70 tanks within moments with the arsenal they can carry.

a reply to: andy06shake

Russia wasn't trying to flatten the Ukraine, that was, again, a western media, made for television talking point.

We will see how this turns out. You have your opinion, I have mine. Time will show who's been more sincere in their approach to this.

The fact you'd stand with NATO is enough for me. These internationalists don't care a lick about nation sovereignty or civilian life. Only when it serves their interest. NATO is borderline reprobate.

I just can't fathom how you think that Ukraine has any hope, at all of 'winning' this conflict. There wont be a winner, Ukraine will fight to the last man, be utterly devastated, and then maybe a foreign power will pick up the mantle and start fighting Russia on their behalf, I mean, isn't that what we're doing anyway?

I read the Project for the new American century, did you? You'd have seen this coming if you did...... Russia cannot exist in a world designed around western hegemony. Nor can China or Iran...... That's a different topic though, isn't it.

Internationalists wanted this war, that's why it's happening. The interntaionalists will win too, like they always do, because they have people, like yourself, rooting for the wrong side again...... humanity always loses. It's like a bad script.....

a reply to: Joneselius

But it's too late for morality to prevail now. We have to operate in realities, and the reality is that the Ukraine can not, and will not win this war without starting a much wider and far bigger conflict. Zelensky knows this, hence when HIS missile landed in Poland he called for WW3 almost immediately.

That should of been a HUGE wakeup call to everyone, I was honestly surprised that more wasnt made of that.

Your absolutely right though, and once more people are pulled in, I honestly dont see Putin having any other option but dropping nukes, strategic or not, because the guy isnt going to lose face on the world stage.

a reply to: andy06shake

Now, remind me. How is the UK NOT at war with Russia now?

Seems your talking points are just that.......

An attack helicopter, really....... This is just silly at this point. We're goading Russia into attacking us.... And you're acting all giddy.

a reply to: Joneselius

We will see how this turns out. You have your opinion, I have mine. Time will show who's been more sincere in their approach to this.

Well on that note we seem to be able to agree at least.

I want peace on Earth and goodwill toward mankind Joneselius, but i don't think that's what Putin is after with his land grab.

My bedtime now anyway, i bid ye fair evening for the time being.

a reply to: Joneselius

I read the Project for the new American century, did you? You'd have seen this coming if you did...... Russia cannot exist in a world designed around western hegemony. Nor can China or Iran...... That's a different topic though, isn't it.

Internationalists wanted this war, that's why it's happening. The interntaionalists will win too, like they always do, because they have people, like yourself, rooting for the wrong side again...... humanity always loses. It's like a bad script.....

This a 1000 times cant be overstated enough