Pro-life activist arrested for praying silently near an abortion facility

a reply to: Terpene

What if they not only pass by but stop for 10 minutes every time and just stare at your door? You cool with that too? I'm sure you'd try to get a restraining order, who in their right minds want such loons close by? It doesn't even matter what you do or think, it's a little obsessive if not downright sick.

That actually has happened to me. Several times in fact. Turns out, there is a dead cell service area just west of me, and people would often stop on the road (there is little traffic) and finish their conversation right in front of my house. I didn't realize why for a long time until a friend did the same thing and I asked about it.

I never had a problem with it. I never got a restraining order. I never called the cops. Once or twice I walked outside to make sure they weren't up to something.

NOT. MY. LAND.

Them being on public property ties your hand in solving the issues unless you want to make yourself guilty. So you'd probably resort to authorities too. They have the means to put a stop to that antisocial behavior, and one day you'll be mighty happy they do.

Exactly how many times do you want me to agree that intimidation and blocking access are justification for restricting access? I've lost count. Is my screen broken? Am I seeing something different in these posts than you are?

Had the cops asked her for her ID and arrested her for violating a restraining order, I wouldn't have a problem. But they asked her if she had been praying and arrested her when she said maybe.

You would always condemn such behavior, but because she was praying you are willing to look away from everything that lead to to her arrest.

NO!

You are starting to sound like a broken record, and I am wondering if you even read my responses. NO! I don't care if she was praying or not! I care that the police cared if she was praying or not!

Please, at least take the time to read what I write before you try to refute it.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Ohanka

Just one of those questions the police ask.

You have GOT to be joking me!

In what world do the police go around asking everyone "were you praying?"

My GOD, do you read what you post? I am trying to get a simple answer to a concern and the ridiculousness is going off the scale trying to avoid it!

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

I think we can all agree that she was there to be provocative, but that does not excuse what happened.

You can't arrest someone until they actually do something overtly wrong. If you are arresting her for breaking the buffer, she actually needs to be taking action to do that. If you had to ask if she was, then there is no clear evidence of wrong-doing.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Ohanka

It’s okay to be gay.

Of course it is. Did you think it wasn't?

we're just not allowed in the tv you watch, is that it? Gays are fine as long as they stay the hell out of my star trek future! seems odd but whatever, totally not the point of the thread

And no one was arrested for praying.

Then please, again, for the umpteenth time, WHY DID THE POLICE SPECIFICALLY ASK ABOUT IT BEFORE ARRESTING HER?


it's been pointed out about a hundred times already but it's because that was her excuse. that's what she'd said previously when she was out there assaulting people . I imagine the tone of the exchange would have been fairly ironic - the arresting officers know damn well she's NOT there to pray but she's going to say so anyway.

a reply to: TheRedneck

No. The police approach the crazy person in the area they are banned from and ask “what are you doing here?” Knowing full well who she is and intending to remove her from said area regardless of the answer. Like when the police are asked to remove people from other places they aren’t meant to be.

a reply to: continuousThunder

I went on the highway. I was asked if I was speeding. The cops arrested me.

See, I have a history of being a notorious speeder, and I have picked up numerous traffic violations for it before, even had my license suspended previously.

But was I speeding that day? No one knows, they only know I was on the highway and my history.

a reply to: Ohanka

Then ARREST HER FOR BREAKING THE RESTRAINING ORDER. You know what? That actually is an actionable legal violation. If as you contend, everyone knew and there was a restraining order. This would seem to have been the sensible course.

You don't arrest her for the non-crime of protesting by praying which she was not overtly engaged in. That's just being dickish.

originally posted by: ketsuko
You can't arrest someone until they actually do something overtly wrong

how about when they've been doing something overtly wrong for a decade , racking up literally thousands of complaints of harassment and abuse, have been banned from an area - essentially given a restraining order - and proceeded to break that condition several times? how about then?

a reply to: ketsuko

I’m sure if she’s charged then that’s what the charge will be.

a reply to: ketsuko

Ket, I have decided there is no answer. No one can come up with a half-believable reason why that question was asked just prior to her arrest. it's becoming a comedy routine.

The simple truth is evident: the woman had a history of being a nuisance, but apparently no one had managed to get a restraining order. The cops did arrest her because she might have been praying. Those supporting the cops' actions are doing so because she is a Christian, and those damn Christians deserve anything they get! Throw them to the lions!

Ironically, after hearing the circumstances, I'll say she probably should have been arrested... just not for praying.

You know, I always thought I would die of old age... now I wonder if I won't be executed for failing to renounce Christianity before that can happen. Seems likely based on this thread. I wonder how long it will be before we start seeing Christians in the UK burned alive in ovens to the cheers of the crowd?

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

I am not sure she should have been. I think the UK went about this backassward. They don't want protests being harassing, so they institute this buffer zone.

In my mind, the buffer requires that you engage in action in order to break it. So someone just standing there isn't engaging in any actionable offense. There is no overt protest to break the buffer.

Of course, if this woman is as annoying as a Phelps, then she is going to push it and just stand there, but if she isn't engaged in anything overt, the rules of the buffer zone would dictate she can do that no matter how much no one likes her. So if it's really her they cannot stand, they should have gotten a specific restraining order against her, but no one seems to have? Or if it is there, no one seems interested in enforcing it because they simply could have removed her for being in violation of it.

Instead, we have this song and dance about finding some excuse to charge her with an activity that would break the buffer zone. So the cops have to ask her if she was praying because they have to find some reason meaning there was no overt action they could charge.

a reply to: continuousThunder

we're just not allowed in the tv you watch, is that it?

I'd just like the choice of whether I want to watch it or not. You know, the same desire you expressed?

That chip on your shoulder must get heavy...

because that was her excuse

Wait, wait, wait... how is that her excuse when the police were the ones who asked it? Isn't that backwards?

It's not like the police were arresting her and she said "but I was only praying!" That would be an excuse. The police asked her if she had been praying.

And apparently that's what the police ask people when they question them in the UK now.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Ohanka

No. The police approach the crazy person in the area they are banned from and ask “what are you doing here?” Knowing full well who she is and intending to remove her from said area regardless of the answer. Like when the police are asked to remove people from other places they aren’t meant to be.

But, but, but... you just said police in the UK usually ask people if they were praying. Now you're claiming they didn't ask it at all? Is there body cam footage with audio?

How did they determine she was a crazy person? They didn't know she might have been praying until they asked her. Is standing on the street a sign of mental illness in the UK now?

TheRedneck

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: bastion

So was she arrested for breaking the restraining order or for praying in the buffer zone? The former is legitimate, the latter is not.

The contention throughout this thread *on both sides* is that she was arrested for praying - because that's what the police asked and then arrested her for based on the answer.

Breaking the restraining order (PSPO) - the order specifies

The Activities prohibited by the Order are:
i Protesting, namely engaging in any act of approval or disapproval or attempted act of
approval or disapproval, with respect to issues related to abortion services, by any means.
This includes but is not limited to graphic, verbal or written means, prayer or counselling.

There has to be very clear and overwhelming evidence for the police and council to have include prayer on the list pf prohinited activity (i.e persistent repeated abuse of the law and false claims their protests/abuse/anti-social behaviour are prayers) as otherwise it would have violated article 10 and 11 of the Human Rights Act.

This isn't your typical pro-life group. They're a US fundamentalist group trying to get abortion for any reason banned in the UK while promoting dangerous and unproven hormone treatments and false claims about abortion. They've been coaching people to harras and frighten women in the UK outside clinics then claim they were arrested for "silent prayer" outside clinics and hospitals.

It’s simple. They asked what she was doing in the buffer area, and then asked why she was doing it in the buffer area when she knows she’s not allowed to. The buffer is there because of 9 years of harassment and assault by her organisation.

I’m sorry that this explanation doesn’t feed into a fictional religious persecution complex. Fact is her idiotic cause is dying due to lack of interest and support and the only way to win any sympathy is stupid stunts and lying, false articles like this one.

So ridiculous. No different than breaking in to an abandoned shop, the police are called and ask what you’re doing and you say “meditating” and then they ask why you’re doing it there and say you can’t. Then you get arrested for refusing to leave. You weren’t arrested for meditating but trespassing. Regardless of whatever nonsense story you spin the press.

CNN-tier truthfulness.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Yeah we don't exactly know what's written on the arrest papers, but I can guarantee you it's not praying.

Did they ask her the question sure, "maybe" isn't the wisest of answer to give to a police officer in her situation, try and play games with the cops and they let you know very quickly, that that wasn't a good idea...

She won the prize, she got what she was looking for, a political hit piece.

Look I'd agree that concept of a buffer zone is disturbing to me too. It's a slippery slope.
But then again, I remeber protest of the "pro choice" crowd were always met with "pro live" resistance and vice versa.
only difference the "pro choice" crowd never had water cannon trucks, freeing the streets off "pro life" resistance.
Having seen these clashes of fanatics, I can imagine very well why they'd do something like a buffer zone. Don't drag others into your loony war...

My guess, inflating this topic and making a big political issue of it wasn't the best idea. It creates tensions that have to be mitigated. I don't blame the authorities, i blame the fanatic pro life and pro choice crowds, for being a PITA to normal humans on a regular base, it's what you get.

An abortion clinic certainly will be an attractor for these tensions.

a reply to: bastion

You said yourself: clear and overwhelming evidence.

If the police had to ask, it couldn't have been that clear.

Also, you are describing the buffer zone, not a restraining order which is something in the US you can file against a specific person.

a reply to: bastion

The Activities prohibited by the Order are:
i Protesting, namely engaging in any act of approval or disapproval or attempted act of
approval or disapproval, with respect to issues related to abortion services, by any means.
This includes but is not limited to graphic, verbal or written means, prayer or counselling.

You know, I don't have a problem with that per se... I think my problem is more with how it is being interpreted.

It's obvious to me that whoever issued this PSPO were considering a verbal group "prayer" (which is a misnomer in itself, but whatever) when they mentioned "praying." They did mention "graphic, verbal, or written means" after all. A silent prayer is a thought... it is communication with God within the confines of one's own mind. No one has any indication that the person is praying (unless they maybe move their lips a bit; some people do that instinctively).

If we take that to the extreme that it prohibits silent prayer, then since it also mentions "approval or disapproval," it would follow that everyone who works inside the abortion clinic is also guilty of violating that order. I imagine that the people who work there approve of abortion and they probably think about how much they approve of abortion during the day. So they're guilty of violating the PSPO as well.

As a matter of fact, since abortion is such a divisive issue, I would wager that anyone in the area, including the cops themselves, are guilty of thinking thoughts that violate the PSPO. They obviously don't like people praying silently. So that's a dead zone for people now, right? All people are prohibited from being there? Including the people who work there?

Wow... I think I was right. If I were to ever travel to the UK, I would be arrested before I could get off the plane. I think things that others don't agree with a lot.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Carrying out an abortion would seem to be an explicit act of approval. I guess they just made abortion illegal within their zone.

a reply to: Ohanka

I’m sorry that this explanation doesn’t feed into a fictional religious persecution complex.

Dude, it doesn't fit into reality.

You know, someone could just say "The cops were a little overbearing and shouldn't have asked that, but she was a nuisance anyway and they were trying to avoid a worse incident" and I could accept that. I don't know why that is such a hard thing to admit.

But hey, keep spinning away and blaming the guy asking the hard question you can't answer. It's entertaining.

TheRedneck